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Zephyr Mallory
Limberry Aegis GmbH
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Posted - 2007.08.18 04:15:00 -
[1]
Not asking to remove it, or increase timers or anything like that. What I would like to see is a loot rights option when dealing with another player.
It could be through a right click interface, right click on a player/corp and select give/revoke loot rights. The list would probably be maintained in People & Places, with two sub-tabs, something like 'Rights Given' for people you have given permission to, and 'Rights Owned' listing people that have given you loot rights.
To prevent scamming and new player/trust abuse, there would have to be a wait period after you gave loot rights to someone before you could revoke them, An hour should work, I think.
This would also allow deals to be brokered between combat players and harvester type players and/or new players looking to make a little extra money that could be built on a little more than blind faith that the guy who just said you can have his loot cans, because he wasn't going to loot, won't turn you into space dust.
Also make salvaging another players wrecks without loot rights a flagging offense. It's still theft of property. I know most mission runners that don't salvage would gladly give rights to someone else (possibly for a fee), and those who don't are tired of people scanning them out in hi-sec and watching someone come by and snag the battleship wrecks before they can get to them without any recourse except to shake their fist angrily.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.18 11:06:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/08/2007 11:06:15 Nice, get my vote for this.
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Pirate Tom
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Posted - 2007.08.18 17:10:00 -
[3]
I don't like it. It's already bad enough that they get kill rights on me if I pick something up that i didn't kill. now you want me to get flagged for salvaging it too?
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The wonderful thing about pirates is pirates is wonderful things. Their box is filled up with killmails and they love to hear the screams!
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Tuskurite Bifuu
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.19 00:29:00 -
[4]
/signed - it should at least flag for salvaging if it flags for loot stealing - salvage is in essence loot right? So both or neither - the option to give loot rights is a good idea.
--- So I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Sledgehammers are still dangerous. |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.08.19 02:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Zephyr Mallory Also make salvaging another players wrecks without loot rights a flagging offense. It's still theft of property.
No, it's not, because it's not the mission runner's property. It's the property of the person who salvages it.
I have no problem with it if you want to argue that that should be changed--though I'll argue against it. But saying salvage is your property is foolish. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Zephyr Mallory
Limberry Aegis GmbH
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Posted - 2007.08.19 02:37:00 -
[6]
I still feel that the person who blew up the ship should have first ***** at the salvage. Just because you get there faster shouldn't make it yours. If the other player abandons their claim on it fine, free for all. But I'm flying a faster ship than you shouldn't determine who gets it.
Help fight the Salvage Ninjas |
Jason Travers
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Posted - 2007.08.19 03:32:00 -
[7]
I would like to see some change to effect the jet can thieves personally. why not give the thieves a CCP faction hit for every time they steal? But then too I've never seen much support for making it harder on thieves. It is condoned by CCP in the game. I would like to see a non-PVP server also where thieveing wasnt allowed. many opetions for a server like that. and I would jump at the chance to transfer to it if they ever made one.
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Zephyr Mallory
Limberry Aegis GmbH
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Posted - 2007.08.19 04:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Zephyr Mallory on 19/08/2007 04:13:23 I only want 2 things out of this: A.) a legal right to be the first one to salvage things that I KILLED without having to worry about lowlife claimjumpers who are too inept to kill their own stuff )and/or the ability to inflict immediate retribution on those who try anyway) B.) a legitimate way to grant specific persons or corps the right to clean up my after mission mess without fear of it being a scam to gank them.
Yeah, it's to make thieving harder. Like it should be. Thieving isn't free money. It's amoral and looked down upon by any culture who believes in owning property. OK some people find stealing sexycool or something. Part of the fun comes from knowing you're risking something. Let me shoot at them if I see 'em take my kills. Honestly most of the time it's an unarmed salvage ship out there when they show up so they'd *STILL* get away with it most of the time but at least give me a CHANCE to get them!
Help fight the Salvage Ninjas |
Bart Roberts
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Posted - 2007.08.19 15:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Bart Roberts on 19/08/2007 15:11:04 Sigh. How many times .... Look, salvaging is not illegal in this game. However much you would *like* salvaging to be illegal it is not, and therefore you cannot call a salvager a thief. Simple logic. And salvaging was not created in order to give mission-runners more ISK. If that had been the motivation, wouldn't CCP have simply, oh, I don't know, put more loot/higher value loot in?
Also, a salvager does not find you simply by clicking his heels together. He scans you with probes, an ability which is the culmination of weeks of training, at least if you want to be able to do it well. And you, the mission-runner, have also most likely obliged the scanner by using a thwack-load of drones. Be thankful that it is only a salvager who has found you and not a pirate.
Like the idea of being able to give/sell looting and salvaging rights though. As long as there are guarantees for both parties.
PS: Oh yeah, and in r/l our earthly cultures do not regard salvagers as thieves. It may not be the most desired occupation out there, perhaps below garbage man but above nightsoil-collector, but it is legit.
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Jason Travers
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Posted - 2007.08.19 16:39:00 -
[10]
Heheh you shoot a deer and I'll run over and salvage the meat off it and leave you the horns).
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Zephyr Mallory
Limberry Aegis GmbH
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Posted - 2007.08.19 17:05:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Zephyr Mallory on 19/08/2007 17:12:02
Originally by: Bart Roberts salvaging is not illegal in this game. However much you would *like* salvaging to be illegal it is not, and therefore you cannot call a salvager a thief. Simple logic. And salvaging was not created in order to give mission-runners more ISK. If that had been the motivation, wouldn't CCP have simply, oh, I don't know, put more loot/higher value loot in?
Neither was stealing from jet cans before RMR. And as for putting more loot in -they did. it's called salvage.
Quote: And you, the mission-runner, have also most likely obliged the scanner by using a thwack-load of drones. Be thankful that it is only a salvager who has found you and not a pirate.
Rarely use any drones at all, and I'd prefer a pirate- then I could at least have a shot at 'em
Quote: Oh yeah, and in r/l our earthly cultures do not regard salvagers as thieves.
I'm sure law enforcement will smile on you when you salvage that car in your neighbor's back yard that doesn't run. And he won't mind, since salvaging isn't a crime-you have no need to fear his 12 gauge.
Help fight the Salvage Ninjas |
Bart Roberts
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Posted - 2007.08.20 05:06:00 -
[12]
Hi Zeph,
Originally by: Zephyr Mallory Edited by: Zephyr Mallory on 19/08/2007 17:12:02
Neither was stealing from jet cans before RMR. And as for putting more loot in -they did. it's called salvage.
What I meant was that if CCP had wanted to increase PVP rewards, they would have added more/better of the regular loot. It would have been the path of least resistance from the development standpoint. Adding salvage created more work for them, *and* more work for the mission-runner (a whole new skill set plus possibly needing a second config). The reason that salvaging was introduced was to encourage the clean-up of lag-causing wrecks.
Originally by: Zephyr Mallory
Rarely use any drones at all, and I'd prefer a pirate- then I could at least have a shot at 'em
In high sec you wouldn't get shot at by a pirate either (unless a very stupid one) so moot point I guess.
Originally by: Zephyr Mallory
I'm sure law enforcement will smile on you when you salvage that car in your neighbor's back yard that doesn't run. And he won't mind, since salvaging isn't a crime-you have no need to fear his 12 gauge.
This gets back to my original point: the specific activity that is called "salvaging" in this game is not illegal.
There are national and international laws that govern when something is or is not considered salvaging. If all salvage-like activities were illegal, the beaches, forests, highways etc of this world would be even scummier than they are now.
The r/l activity that you refer to is defined as theft rather than salvaging by the authorities because a) the car is on private property and b) your neighbour (probably) still has legal title on it. Neither applies in the case of your hypothetical wreck floating around in space. Space is free for all, and you do not have legal title on the wreck, you have legal title on the container inside the wreck.
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Dhejay Centrix
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Posted - 2007.08.20 07:56:00 -
[13]
Salvaging needs to cause flagging. It's that simple, for a start you shouldn't have to sit there in a mission watching someone take all the stuff you were going to build rigs with without them having to do any of the hard work, at least not without being able to shoot them back. You should have an automatic claim on the wreck when it appears and you should be able to defend that claim. I don't want to have to pay to get something that I have just had for free but then had someone else steal out from under my nose.
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Kempeth
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Posted - 2007.08.20 09:31:00 -
[14]
I like the OP's Idea. I have submitted a similar one a while back. Basically I'm proposing 3 things:
1. salvaging something you didn't kill should be handled just like looting it. 2. Players should be able to transfer or abandon claims on wrecks and jet cans 3. Players should loose their claim on a wreck or jetcan automatically after a while (30 minutes after the last transaction with the wreck or can. Transaction meaning: "creation", "put into", "loot from")
This would still allow for stealing. It would allow ratters to abandon wrecks they dont want to loot and have others do it. And it'll free the wrecks in case the ratter is too lazy to give away the wrecks but doesn't want to loot it either...
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Bart Roberts
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Posted - 2007.08.20 10:53:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Bart Roberts on 20/08/2007 10:53:58
Originally by: Dhejay Centrix Edited by: Dhejay Centrix on 20/08/2007 08:12:49 Salvaging needs to cause flagging. It's that simple, for a start you shouldn't have to sit there in a mission watching someone take all the stuff you were going to build rigs with without them having to do any of the hard work, at least not without being able to shoot them back. You should have an automatic claim on the wreck when it appears and you should be able to defend that claim. I don't want to have to pay to get something that I have just had for free but then had someone else steal out from under my nose.
The powers that be want a viable (i.e. not ridiculously overpriced) market for rigs. The idea was to get more rig components on the market, not to throttle the supply. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=352 (see last paragraph) I'm glad you're doing your part to keep the rig market supplied, but not enough of your brethren are doing the same.
Originally by: Dhejay Centrix And in answer to the "salvaging is not illegal", it isn't but I'd like to see you take a boat trip out to a rl wreck of something where someone is about to salvage it themselves, hook up a tow line and make off with it then shout "it's not illegal!". See what happens.
Your boat has a few holes in it. Firstly, consider: was this wrecked boat once a boat that belonged to, and was used for its original purpose by, the first person attempting to salvage it? If yes, then the newcomer would indeed be committing theft. In EVE, this scenario only comes into play if we are talking about your own ship, not an NPC ship. You did not own those wrecked mission ships at any time, they were owned by the Guristas/Angels/fill in the appropriate NPC faction.
Secondly, if the wrecked boat in your scenario was not the original property of either of the two salvagers, then yes, they could both try to take it, and yes a fight might ensue. However, just because a fight might happen, doesn't mean the law would let it go. Both parties would be Concorded ... er, Coast Guarded. So go ahead and shoot, no one's stopping you, but prepared to duck when the boys in white turn up.
On that note, I can envisage one small concession to the concerned ursines ... perhaps the Concord response in such situations could be slower, but apply equally to both parties? Thus adding a frisson of Russian roulette to the situation. "Is that dude psycho enough to bring Concord down on both of us???"
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Dhejay Centrix
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Posted - 2007.08.20 11:34:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Dhejay Centrix on 20/08/2007 11:36:15 Edited by: Dhejay Centrix on 20/08/2007 11:35:49 i just reckon that if the contents of the wrecks are legally yours then the wrecks themselves should be also. The wrecks do after all contain parts you can use so if the loot = yours so should the salvagable parts be. Rather that than have all the salvage taken out of the mission you've just run so that you can spend more on building rigs for your ship than you otherwise would have if some ******* hadn't just taken it. There was a similar debate going on about jetcans, for ages the answer was to use secure cans if you don't want your ore stolen... Clearly this wasn't practical so now we have can flagging. Can we have some kind of way to lay claim to the wrecks (on the grounds that you earned them as spoils of war or somesuch rubbish) in a mission? It's just as bad as ore thieving and should have the same mechanics attatched to it.
intersting the words the profanity filter censors isn't it :) I wouldn't have added that one to be honest
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Bart Roberts
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Posted - 2007.08.20 11:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bart Roberts On that note, I can envisage one small concession to the concerned ursines ... perhaps the Concord response in such situations could be slower, but apply equally to both parties? Thus adding a frisson of Russian roulette to the situation. "Is that dude psycho enough to bring Concord down on both of us???"
To elaborate on my own brilliant idea:
1) A mission is in progress. 2) Salvager salvages something from a wreck, as is his CCP-gods-given right. This triggers ... 3) The deadspace temporarily assumes a lower security status of 0.5 (only for systems of .6 and up). 4) The mission runner receives an Unauthorized Salvage Op in Progress notification. Similar to the aggression timer, but in effect only for as long as the salvager remains in the deadspace. 5) If he so chooses, the mission-runner can then initiate hostilities against the salvager. However, the mission-runner then accepts the risk of a 0.5-like response from Concord. This response will apply to both mission-runner and salvager. 6) As soon as both parties have left the deadspace, the timer ends and Concord stands down. This process can repeat if the salvager returns to the deadspace and starts salvaging again.
Note: This only applies to missions in progress. Once the mission has been handed in, the wrecks are truly free for all as per the status quo.
Note: Only the mission-runner can initiate hostilities. Aggression initiated by the salvager or any third-parties will be Concorded in the normal fashion.
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Bart Roberts
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Posted - 2007.08.20 12:09:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Bart Roberts on 20/08/2007 12:09:56
Originally by: Dhejay Centrix Edited by: Dhejay Centrix on 20/08/2007 11:36:15 Edited by: Dhejay Centrix on 20/08/2007 11:35:49 i just reckon that if the contents of the wrecks are legally yours then the wrecks themselves should be also.
But look at it this way: you kill the rat, you are rewarded with loot + bounty. So it was, so it is and so it shall always be.
But CCP added NEW content. Do they normally add NEW content without expecting you to do new/different/harder work for it? If that were the case, why did they not just let you take the salvage components from the wreck without any of this annoying need for new skills, equipment, etc? Did they just feel like spending more sleepless nights at their workstations?
You can't do combat for the new stuff because the rat is already dead. So the NEW work that you have to do for it is something called Salvaging. But just like anyone can mine a roid, so too can anyone salvage a wreck. Sure, cans are flagged. So go ahead and salvage and then put your salvaged components in a can. Bingo, just like a miner, you have the same protection as when you fill a can with ore. You wanted it? You got it!
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Pang Grohl
Gallente Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:46:00 -
[19]
Check this guy out he has a solution to your problem
As someone who's been on both sides of this argument I can tell you that the effort that goes into finding your mission space is on par with the effort that goes into killing the rats. And get this salvage ships are fragile, unless you've dedicated a battleship/battlecruiser to the task.
I mean seriously, it's not like mission runners don't get enough rewards for their effort as it is. If you can't stand the thought of losing that little bit of salvage, do your missions faster. You'll lose fewer wrecks to expiration, and once you're out of the mission area anyone looking for your wrecks gets a cold trail. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Y3R M4W
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Posted - 2007.09.12 18:14:00 -
[20]
I certainly support the idea of salvaging causing flagging. The idea of providing rights to certain people is interesting, but unescessary imo.
Note: YER MAW! is Scottish for Your Mother. |
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Kempeth
Gallente Thunderbolts
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Posted - 2007.09.13 12:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bart Roberts But look at it this way: you kill the rat, you are rewarded with loot + bounty. So it was, so it is and so it shall always be.
But CCP added NEW content. Do they normally add NEW content without expecting you to do new/different/harder work for it? If that were the case, why did they not just let you take the salvage components from the wreck without any of this annoying need for new skills, equipment, etc? Did they just feel like spending more sleepless nights at their workstations?
You can't do combat for the new stuff because the rat is already dead. So the NEW work that you have to do for it is something called Salvaging. But just like anyone can mine a roid, so too can anyone salvage a wreck. Sure, cans are flagged. So go ahead and salvage and then put your salvaged components in a can. Bingo, just like a miner, you have the same protection as when you fill a can with ore. You wanted it? You got it!
I killed a mission rat and now there is a wreck. Without me getting that mission and killing that rat, the wreck would not exist: the loot would not exist and neither would there be anything to salvage. So why does killing the ship give me exclusive rights for looting but not for salvaging? There is no reason for this.
Why are you so determined to keep this the way it is? Maybe because it is wrong of us to deny you your rightful salvage? Ooops. You just said that salvage does not belong to anyone, so this can't be it. Might it be because you found a cheap, no-risk way to profit from somebody elses efforts without doing much yourself? That looks more likely...
Just calm down. Salvage flagging will not prevent you from taking what does not belong to you. Just like Can flagging does not prevent it. But unlike the current situation there would at least be *some* downside for people like you. ---------------------------------------------- The glass is neither half full nor half empty. It's just twice as big as it need to be... |
joshmorris
Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.09.13 16:45:00 -
[22]
Like rl salvage is only yours if u have found it and got it, so its only yours when in your cargo.
Man please change the arty sound from the pathetic but classic pew to something more like "chung chunk" I want meaty arty. |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 16:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kempeth
Originally by: Bart Roberts But look at it this way: you kill the rat, you are rewarded with loot + bounty. So it was, so it is and so it shall always be.
But CCP added NEW content. Do they normally add NEW content without expecting you to do new/different/harder work for it? If that were the case, why did they not just let you take the salvage components from the wreck without any of this annoying need for new skills, equipment, etc? Did they just feel like spending more sleepless nights at their workstations?
You can't do combat for the new stuff because the rat is already dead. So the NEW work that you have to do for it is something called Salvaging. But just like anyone can mine a roid, so too can anyone salvage a wreck. Sure, cans are flagged. So go ahead and salvage and then put your salvaged components in a can. Bingo, just like a miner, you have the same protection as when you fill a can with ore. You wanted it? You got it!
I killed a mission rat and now there is a wreck. Without me getting that mission and killing that rat, the wreck would not exist: the loot would not exist and neither would there be anything to salvage.
Unlike a bounty or loot, salvage doesn't exist even after you produce the wreck. It's not there until somebody makes the effort of extracting it. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.13 17:36:00 -
[24]
As for the salvaging issue, you don't own the wrecks. Any doubt read Prism X's comments:
Quote:
But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
Prism X post
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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UniqueEtte
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Posted - 2007.09.14 08:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: UniqueEtte on 14/09/2007 08:15:50
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Johnster
Caldari Resistance is Futile Mass Destruction.
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Posted - 2007.09.14 08:16:00 -
[26]
When salvagers come into my mission area, I destroy the wrecks. I suggest you do the same.
I have no problem with people salvaging wrecks from a mission I am not still doing, but when they do it in front of my eyes, I give them nothing.
However, the best answer to all of these problems is not tagging cans, but instead making agents available from any place in the faction's space, not just at their home station. I can talk to them from other systems, why cant I take a mission in any system I am in from them.
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Kempeth
Gallente Thunderbolts
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Posted - 2007.09.14 14:31:00 -
[27]
Wiki: Salvage does paint a slightly different picture than the "get it keep it" people like to suggest.
But anyway. Salvaging isn't even an appropriate term for it. "the indiscriminate taking of goods by force as part of a military or political victory" sounds more like it. You have overcome your enemy through the use of military force and now lay claim on what you defeated.
And for all those who still insist that what in EVE is known as Salvage should be free for the taking: I'm pretty sure CCP does not believe in Profit without risk. And salvaging is exactly that. If the salvage bits do not belong to the person who killed the ship then neither should the items contained in it... It would seriously nerf the mission runner profession but thats the logical consequence.
There's no difference if you use some robotic system to open a wreck's cargohold and remove stuff from it or if you use a module to remove stuff from the hull itself (Except that one of them just came in later and requires a skill.) ---------------------------------------------- The glass is neither half full nor half empty. It's just twice as big as it need to be... |
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