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Gate Camps and the Use of Scout Alts

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GateCamp Scout	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:03:00 - [1] Edited by: GateCamp Scout on 27/08/2007 17:16:44 I want to know what the community thinks of using scout alts to gather intelligence on gate camps. First, let me start by saying that using meta-gaming tactics to gain advantage on a situation otherwise unknown to me isn't something I'm very proud of. But given the fact there aren't many options in combating gate camps and using a scout seems to be the most recommended, I thought I'd create an alt specifically for the use of intelligence gathering on camps. I'm not planning on recycling this alt. He will simply be the low-risk "dummy" I'll send ahead of my main so that if there is a gate camp then losses will be minimized. ôWhy create an alt? Why not use your corpie to scout for you?ö Well, it doesn't seem reasonable to ask a corp member to fly x number of jumps away to my location because I have a "good hunch" there may be a gate camp on the other side and I need him to take the risk for me. ôWhy not use your corpies to break up the camp?ö Because I don't know where the camp will be. And to fly around with corp members at mostly all times to accommodate my traveling needs isn't reasonable or very fair to them. ôWhy not use the map and stats to determine whether there is a gate camp?ö Well, I do. Unfortunately, for key gates into low sec and 0.0 which are gate-camped probably more often than not the stats may not be accurate enough to make a sound decision. Example, yesterday I jumped into a low sec lvl 4 mission hub system which showed 4 ship destructions/1 pod within an hour and 37 destructs/10 pod kills within a 24 hour period. I figured the gate-camp must have been cleared. I was wrong. Example 2, I jumped into a high sec-to-0.0 system showing 4 destructs/0 pods within an hour and 317 destructs/42 podkills within 24 hours. With these numbers youÆd think the camp is cleared. I was wrong againà Dead wrong. There were over 10 ships camping plus a bubble. ôStab/nano/cloak up!ö This is actually a good suggestion and something I already do. It will save my life as long as I have a ship with enough lows, as long as the gate camp isnÆt too big or has few interceptors, and as long as itÆs low sec. However, it doesnÆt help much against bubbled 0.0 entry points, not even 0.0 NPC-owned space. And it defeats the purpose to want to rat or mine in low/0.0 sec when there arenÆt systems around with stations to dock and refit. The same applies to recon ships which arenÆt very capable of mining/ratting BSÆ in 0.0. TheyÆre very specialized ships good at just, well, hiding. Stabs and nanos have become items solely for the purpose of traveling, and even at that their survival rate isnÆt good enough against some of the numbers you see in gate camps these days. Cloaks will soon be scan-able (sp?) and will likely not be of much help. ôDonÆt go to low sec and 0.0 without your own blob!ö This idea works if you donÆt mind the ever-growing blob warfare tactics in low/0.0 security space. But is this really what it needs to come down to? If low sec were just about gate-camping gangs and roaming camp-busting gangs there would be no room for other industries, such as low-sec mining, manufacturing, goods-trading to flourish. IsnÆt this exactly the problem we are having now? The problem with gate camps is that IF there is a bubbled gate camp on the other side when you jump in, you will [bold]most likely die[/bold]. There are no real counters to gate camps. There is only the minimizing of losses to gate camps. Using a scout is a good way in finding out if there is a gate camp and minimizing the loss. What do you think about alts being used as no-risk dummies? If youÆre not OK with using alts to scout, what do you consider the best counter to a gate camp? What would you suggest needs change if any? Do you camp gates? If so, how do you feel about knowing a scout is being used to gather information on your gate camp? Edit: Fixed bold text. G.S.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:17:00 - [2] Personally, I have 2 Alt Scouts, both are Corp Members... I have 2 accounts and both accounts have an alt whose life is jumping first through a gate to see what's on the other side... As Each Scout (when active) is "Working" for another active player, I am less sure how this measures on the Meta-Gaming scale... but then, I am not all that worried about folks pointing fingers... unless it's to laugh at the name of the scout's ship... "Bait" --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:21:00 - [3] Using scouts is probably one of the most harmless forms of metagaming ... On the other hand it is extremely annoying when you are gate camping and 90% of the ships you kill are shuttles and noob ships. Training for cloaked dictors now ;-P EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
DaveW Caldari South Park Development	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:31:00 - [4] My feeling is this. The crew working the gate knows what's on the other side. But, they never tell me...!!! My alts are just giving me information that should be avaiable to everyone. --------------------------------------------------- "If you can't stand the heat..., stay out of the Kitchen."
Ed Anger	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:45:00 - [5] Edited by: Ed Anger on 27/08/2007 18:45:55 and they could put friggin windows in the stations also. like you'd really undock without knowing whats outside, or jump without some idea of what's at the next jump.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Ed Anger Edited by: Ed Anger on 27/08/2007 18:45:55 and they could put friggin windows in the stations also. Quick, someone post the classic "if stations had windows" picture!!! EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Jimer Lins Gallente Sanctuary	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:59:00 - [7] I've been known to go through 3 regions to avoid a system that might be camped. 30 extra jumps vs the cost of a new ship and fittings. There's also something satisfying about spending some time and getting into deep 0.0 from hisec without seeing anyone at all but a few ratters. SEARCh- we find sites for you!
Eric Watson Caldari Eve University	Posted - 2007.08.27 19:20:00 - [8] Personally I think that scouting drones should be redesigned to allow for this type of scouting. Metagaming should not be required in order to function....and unfortunately it is in this game.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.27 19:33:00 - [9] The other question I usually have is "is the camp any good?" I have had camps with three people or so who appear to be new at it (in low sec), and I fly right by. Others may have over 10 bs/bc, and they are alert to someone coming through and immediately cloaking (as has often worked for me). In such cases, it doesn't work - they see the flicker and are right on me. Just because you see a camp in low sec doesn't mean it's any good. I find it refreshing to run into a well-run, large camp that is alert. It doesn't happen very often. More often is the group of two or three people new to the pirating thing - very disappointing from an excitement perspective. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.08.27 19:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Eric Watson Personally I think that scouting drones should be redesigned to allow for this type of scouting. Metagaming should not be required in order to function....and unfortunately it is in this game. /signed the gatecamp mechanic is broken. even just a sign on the other side of the gate saying "now entering <alliance> sovereign space, this gate is camped" would keep neutrals out and help everyone know which systems to avoid without having to use alts. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.

Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.08.27 20:33:00 - [11] an alt scout is like paying for someone else to do it, only in this case its you and your paying ccp.
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 20:35:00 - [12] all metagaming should be a EULA offence. sorry, just my 2 cents ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:01:00 - [13] Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 27/08/2007 23:02:13 Originally by: Cornucopian all metagaming should be a EULA offence. sorry, just my 2 cents If that happened they would have to shut down the forums due to massive EULA violations.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
SirMoric	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:19:00 - [14] The problem is that you don't have a chance of catching people other places than gates?!? I do understand the campers.... If they didn't have the camps they would be out of work. But I dislike the whole idea of gatecamping, it seems stupid, noobish, unfair and every other bad word you can put on it, why? Cause you don't have the sligthest chance of discovering the camp or knowing it's there in the first place. So what does the community do to overcome this, they get disposable alts to go through the gates and scout ahead, why? Cause it's the easiest way of countering the dummest feature of the game without too much work... Whine? Yes.... What do we need? To move battles from the camps out into open space. How do we do it? We make a warp-breaking module to fit on interdictors that can drag ships out of warp between gates. What do we get? A game of hunters and the hunted, everyone trying to outwitt each other. The hunters getting larger prey to hunt and the hunted a chance to twist and work a little to get through a system instead of the monotomonous warp from gate to gate. So gatecampers, stop whine about the cheap alt-scouts, they're the easiest way to get through as things are now and as gatecampers you are really doing the least amount of work to catch your sheeps. rgds
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:25:00 - [15] I have no beef with using alt-scouts. However "GateCamp Scout" while funny, is foolish. Now they know something else is coming after. The brilliant move would be to name your main "GateCamp Scout" and your alt-scout something innocuous. I'll leave the why of it as an exercise to the critically thinking reader. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
Captian Internet	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 27/08/2007 23:02:13 Originally by: Cornucopian all metagaming should be a EULA offence. sorry, just my 2 cents If that happened they would have to shut down the forums due to massive EULA violations.. stolen concept but you'll get the idea snip Your signature was removed for being t3. Please email [email protected] with a link to your signature graphic if you have questions. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:39:00 - [17] Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 27/08/2007 23:40:29 Originally by: Captian Internet stolen concept but you'll get the idea Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Dominious Gallente Semper Excelsius	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:28:00 - [18] Edited by: Dominious on 28/08/2007 13:30:31 Alt scouts are a necessary evil. Without them the odds for survival in 0.0 are slim to none if you travel solo.
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Dominious Edited by: Dominious on 28/08/2007 13:30:31 Alt scouts are a necessary evil. Without them the odds for survival in 0.0 are slim to none if you travel solo. dont solo. its what corps are for. Removing alts would vastly improve the necessity for specialist training. Miners? who gives a **, everyone and their mother have an indusrty alt. People who have trained niche skills would become more valuable to corps, fleets and alliances. People would be able to make a better living out of things like explo, scanning, manu, scouting, recon, etc. Everyone has 9 accounts these days. you log in, setup all research and manu jobs with one set of alts. spam Jita with your trader alt and 1020892 market orders startup your macro'd mining account and go to work. get back from work, stop mining, start PvPing: use your scout alt to scout for you, and your remote repping alt to help you out in combat. yada yada yada.... it sux. Read the EVE tribune: ALTS SUCK BIG HARD SHINY THORAX HULL. problem is..... CCP actively endorses this method of play. Hell, you can collect the pirate bounty on your alt FFS, its what the bounty system is FOR dontchaknow. And the Alt business is now so ingrained in EVE it would be a massive shift if CCP were to remove them: all hell would break loose, since everyone and their mother uses alts in the first place. now, of course I will be flamed: oooo you know it so well, you must have alts blablablabla. I don't. I dont post with my alt, and I dont play with alts. I'm just pointing out what everyone seems to be ignoring in this thread. sorry for the harsh tone, but I had to get that off my chest... apologies. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
Postlatta Mouseanon	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:28:00 - [20] I've found the only way to enjoy this game as an anti-social run my own operation person was to have 3 accounts. One does nothing but covert ops. Very specialized, and very dangerous.

Arachidamia Matari People's Front	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:33:00 - [21] I certainly feel gate camps are on the wrong side of the gate. It's just bizarre how it works, and turns it into a game of chance. Just remove wtz at gates, and disallow warping directly to gates by any other means. Then protect people who have entered systems for a few seconds. It should be easier to defend the gate entrance, but once people have got through they should be fairly safe imho. End result, people can camp. But you can actually do something active to detect gate camps. Not just send in a suicide alt, or toss a coin. Then perhaps gate camps will turn into true blockades, not mindless ganks.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Eric Watson Personally I think that scouting drones should be redesigned to allow for this type of scouting. Metagaming should not be required in order to function....and unfortunately it is in this game. That's a really awesome idea. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Granmethedon III High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton an alt scout is like paying for someone else to do it, only in this case its you and your paying ccp. Except you're not, cause you have 3 toons for each account.....
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Eric Watson Personally I think that scouting drones should be redesigned to allow for this type of scouting. Metagaming should not be required in order to function....and unfortunately it is in this game. That's a really awesome idea. yeah, you warp the drone through the gate and get a little PiP image of what the drone sees at the gate, kinda like SG1 : if the screen goes static you know there are goons there :-) ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
britchie Gallente The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:41:00 - [25] keep in mind that the campers may have a cloaked alt on the non-camped side so they can see whats comming. Does anyone know how to get my name capitalized?
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:42:00 - [26] Originally by: britchie keep in mind that the campers may have a cloaked alt on the non-camped side so they can see whats comming. Rant ON metagiming SUX THORAX BALLS!Rabble rabble rabble Rant OFF ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
nightslasher	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:11:00 - [27] You must be really bored... Using an alt is no different from using a corpmate. Many people have multiple accounts for many different purposes. One counter to a gate camp is to come with many corpmates...and have an FC and kill the camp....
Scoutingfor Gatecamps	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:25:00 - [28] Edited by: Scoutingfor Gatecamps on 28/08/2007 15:25:49 Your ideas seem intriguing, I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:36:00 - [29] Originally by: Eric Watson Personally I think that scouting drones should be redesigned to allow for this type of scouting. Metagaming should not be required in order to function....and unfortunately it is in this game. /signed! IMHO, alts are more harm than good. As stated already in this thread, the players with niche skills would become more valuable. I think we'd also see a huge decline in suicide ganking. If you think otherwise, you're either full of **, or are one of the dozen players in eve who have the balls to suicide gank with their mains. This is not an anti-suicide ganking whine. I'm all for it. I just happen to be for a risk/reward balance as well. Removing alts would accomplish this. That was off track, but the point remains the same. Alts should not be required to play Eve. Unfortunately, alts will never** be removed because they account for too big of a cash flow for CCP, broken game mechanics or not. ---------------
Sorted High Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:21:00 - [30] Meta gaming comes on many levels. An in my experience an ambush camp makes more ISK than a static blob camp. (its safer for the campers also) that kinda meta gaming is the tip of the iceburg and by far the most common. More dispicable types could be like using an alliance guy - with a outa alliance gank alt for preying on the trusting Alliance in belts/@ gates. Or using ALT spies in the enemy allaince fleet/voice comms to call their FC names to your FC for primarys :) With less ALT use you would see more multilayer interaction with courier contracts, bounty hunting, competitive markets, hired scouting etc etc - but its a way of the game now. I DO use ALTS - Sorted is a PVP spec and my first developed character. But I also have I have miners & haulers but only so I didnt have to dilutes my mains training. I think using hauling alts to circumvent a war for example is crap (but I am an ex-priv) So with the exception of (atm) Sorted all my characters reside in the same place and dont corp jump during war. I dont scout gates or do enemy fleet inflitration but ALTS are part of the game - guess its a fine line for meta-gaming. But if you cant beat-em join em. Everyone plays in there own way. Some wont fly as pirates, or mine for example. some wont meta game - or use any alts. Its a personal choice I guess. Sorted



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