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Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.08.27 20:28:00 -
[1]
I've been playing around in quickfit and EFT and I've noticed that I have to be careful before training certain skills because they effectively break my permatank.
Skills like Repair Systems Operation, Rapid Firing etc. Basically any skill that reduces the duration of an active module must be examined carefully.
For example, I had a dominix fit that, when combined with my skills was just barely sustainable. When I test-fit as though I had Rapid Firing IV I effectively broke the sustainability of my tank (more cap than peak regen). In the case of gunnery this can be mitigated with Controlled Bursts, but there is no compensating skill for Repair Systems or Capital Repair Systems.
The more I thought about this the more it bothered me. Why are there some skills, that while on the surface seem entirely beneficial, actually a double edged sword when there are others that play similar roles are purely beneficial?
For example, Shield Compensation only reduces capacitor usage of shield boosters, so there's no reason not to train it to V if you have time.
I noticed the same problem test fitting a Nyx. If I train Capital Repair Systems beyond level I, my fit with my skills, is no longer indefinitely sustainable.
Why is there no compensating skill as is the case with Controlled Bursts?
Why do armor tanking skills require this careful planning and test fitting while shield tanking skills do not? Further, gunnery skills have compensating skills for ones that decrease duration of module activation.
IMO, we need a compensating skill to make training armor repair skills less dangerous.
It seems like armor tanking got the short end of the stick in this regard. Not only is there risk of losing sustainability, but with armor tanking the hp boost occurs at the end of the module cycle whereas shield boosting occurs at the beginning, and has a skill that reduces cap usage, not duration.
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Support fixing the EVE UI
Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not. |
Krissam
Caldari
Advanced Crystal Methods
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Posted - 2007.08.27 20:42:00 -
[2]
you're kidding right?
you're you're saying that you'ld rarther run a setup than can run 24/7 assuming you dont get nossed/neuted than one you have set on/off that's better?
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Galan Undris
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Posted - 2007.08.27 20:52:00 -
[3]
Being able to permarun everything just means you're spending less cap than you could have...
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Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.08.27 20:58:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Krissam
you're kidding right?
you're you're saying that you'ld rarther run a setup than can run 24/7 assuming you dont get nossed/neuted than one you have set on/off that's better?
Typical troll...
No, I'm saying I'd like to be able to train an additional skill that would allow me to run a better setup 24/7 rather than having to choose, or be irrevocably stuck with a non-sustainable setup that, prior to training say, Repair Systems, was sustainable.
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Support fixing the EVE UI
Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not. |
Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.08.27 21:00:00 -
[5]
OP:
In your dominix example - just use medium armour repair and medium guns and your cap should be just fine even with rapid repair and/or armour repair systems 5.
- Carebear Pirate - |
Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.08.27 21:17:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
OP:
In your dominix example - just use medium armour repair and medium guns and your cap should be just fine even with rapid repair and/or armour repair systems 5.
It can already sustain dual Large Armor Repairer IIs and (5) Dual 250mm Rails and I'd like to keep it that way.
Unfortunately there are no skills that would allow me to further improve my tank without breaking the perma-run setup that I love having.
I mean who has never accidentally run a module to long and borked their own cap? I like being able to turn it on and forget about it.
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Support fixing the EVE UI
Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not. |
Praesus Lecti
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.08.27 21:34:00 -
[7]
Although I understand your position on this it does bring up an important point that I think the other posters are trying to point out: There should never be a setup that is infinitely sustainable. There should always be pluses and minuses that require our near constant attention. Too much of this game is already oversimplified.
Yes, it is frustrating to see a skill improving but causing an apparent detrimental effect as you stated but perhaps what you see as the baseline for your comparison really is not the intended baseline? A given setup may, on the surface, seem desirable but how applicable is that setup? What variables can make your indefinitely sustainable setup a highly undesirable setup with which to operate?
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Blue Wraith
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Posted - 2007.08.27 22:33:00 -
[8]
After I looked at the numbers, even with the shield comp skill maxed, armor still requires less cap to sustain than shields (more on that below). So, the OP's complaint does not hold true.
First, armor skills are much quicker to max than shield skills. You can verify this yourself by making a creating a manual character in EveMon. Create one training track that maxes all active armor tank skills and allows you to fit t2 large armor reppers and hardeners (i.e. Hull Upgrades V, Repair Systems V, Mechanic V), then create another that maxes all active shield skills and allows you to fit t2 x-large boosters and hardeners (i.e. Shield Op V, Shield Mgmt V, Shield Comp V, Engineering IV, Tactical Shield Manip. IV). Compare the total time to train of those two tracks.
Next, setup a perma-tank t2-equipped Raven with QuickFit. (For extra torture, try to fit 6x t2 siege.) You'll find that you have no spare mid slots to use for anything fun (e.g. painter or boost amp) and/or no low slots to use for missile mods, and all your rig slots are filled with CCCs. Also, the defacto resists on shields are a less than that of armor.
As for the sustainability numbers, even with the the Shield Comp skill maxed, a Raven uses 90 cap / s to run it's XL booster, but a domi with 2x large t2 reppers and maxed repair systems only requires 71.1 cap /s to run it's reppers. Granted that the t2 XL boosts slightly more (150 hp / s + passive regen) compared to 2x large t2 reppers (142.2 hp / s). Assuming about a 20 hp/s max passive shield regen, you end up with the Raven at 1.8 hp / s boost for every one cap point spent, and the Domi at 2 hp / s rep for every cap point spent.
From this, it seems to me that armor still has the easier perma tank, and mids to spare. Guns add cap drain also, and I don't have numbers for that. But even if guns + armor use a little more total cap / s than shields + missiles, you still have to account for the longer training times and less default resists of shields. Those poor guns + shields users really have it rough for perma-tanking. ;-)
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Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.08.27 23:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Blue Wraith
After I looked at the numbers, even with the shield comp skill maxed, armor still requires less cap to sustain than shields (more on that below). So, the OP's complaint does not hold true.
Then apparently you missed the point of my post.
If you want argue that armor tanking is [insert text here], please start a new thread or join an existing one on that subject. That's not what this thread was created for.
My point is that there is a skill that affects armor repairing that can cause a setup that was previously sustainable to become non-sustainable with no other change in skills or setup. That, coupled with the fact that you cannot untrain skills can lead to formerly sustainable setups being irrecoverably broken.
Rapid Firing increases cap usage over time, but is balanced by Controlled Bursts.
Every one of the navigation skills either increase duration of module cycle or decrease resource use.
Shield boosting has no skill that will improve your boosting ability, but decrease sustainability.
Remote Armor Repair Systems decreases cap usage with skill increase, not duration.
Remote Hull Repair Systems decreases cap usage with skill increase, not duration.
It just seems odd to me that Repair Systems is the only skill in the whole damn game that costs more cap as you increase it and has no counter skill to reduce cap/resource usage.
Right now there are a couple of setups that I like to fly that will brook no increase in Repair Systems without making them unable to premarep.
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Support fixing the EVE UI
Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not. |
Wayward Hooligan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.28 01:13:00 -
[10]
The problem you have with Repair System Operation is balanced by the fact that the amount of DPS you can tank goes up.
This is an incredibly silly whine and I don't understand why it's a problem.
Some people will whine about anything.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.28 06:17:00 -
[11]
The non-sustainable tank after the skill is better than the sustainable tank before the skill, so I don't see any problem with it aside from inconveniencing a person who forgets to turn off a module. I suppose this is a good warning to people: if your tank is already just where you want it, don't improve it.
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Grismar.net |
RaTTuS
BIG
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Posted - 2007.08.28 10:02:00 -
[12]
rigs and implants can help
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BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & RaTTuS Home
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Chi Quan
Jade Phoenix Deutschland
Event-Horizon
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Posted - 2007.08.28 11:50:00 -
[13]
you can dectivate modules, you dont have to permarun them. burst-use them.
-- Tempus fugit -- |
Drykor
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:30:00 -
[14]
Yes you will burn more cap but you will also repair more, so what is the problem here? Just that you can't be lazy/semi-afk and keep your repairers on constantly? Burst them and you'll still be better off than without the skill.
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Nabar Phargal
Gallente
Anqara Expeditions
The OSS
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:50:00 -
[15]
Reasons to have an infinitank:
1. If you disconnect in a mission, you don't have to worry about your tank turning off before you emergency warp.
2. You afk missions. (Warp in, draw aggro, release drones, go eat lunch/pvp/take a nap)
3. You haven't figured out how to pay attention to your cap with all the other shiny things on the screen.
Did I miss any?
The second reason doesn't apply. He already stated he uses guns, which implies non-afkness.
If it's the third reason he's having issues with, I'd say he bought his toon with GTC. By the time a character is flying a domi with a T2 tank, monitoring cap shouldn't be that big a deal.
I'd say the first reason has some validity. I'd argue that if training Armor Repair Systems up one level to five puts your cap usage over the edge, it should last plenty long enough to get you 1M km away from the rats.
To add a cap reduction skill would require a nerf to armor tanking in some other way.
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Sofring Eternus
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:15:00 -
[16]
Dont think of it as reducing cap usage on armor repairers. Think of it as increasing passive armor repair amount like shields already have. 
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LiquidTester
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:20:00 -
[17]
I'm glad I'm not the only one to realize what a stupid whine this was.
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Krissam
Caldari
Advanced Crystal Methods
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2007.08.29 13:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Krissam
you're kidding right?
you're you're saying that you'ld rarther run a setup than can run 24/7 assuming you dont get nossed/neuted than one you have set on/off that's better?
Typical troll...
No, I'm saying I'd like to be able to train an additional skill that would allow me to run a better setup 24/7 rather than having to choose, or be irrevocably stuck with a non-sustainable setup that, prior to training say, Repair Systems, was sustainable.
dont call me a troll... i was giving you a legitimate answer
there's ups and downs to most thing in this game.
want a better tank? you have to lose som gank
wanna learn to mine? you lose some training time in gank/tank
wanna learn to rep faster? you gotta pay more cap
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Krayton Jindarii
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Posted - 2007.08.29 14:47:00 -
[19]
In my mind, I see this as kind of a moot point. You're right, armor skills aren't meant to be sustainable. This is because the two primary armor tanking races in the game aren't designed for sustainability. Gallente are meant to be close-in hard-hitters, with blasters and drones. Even if the target manages to break the shield, all the Gallente needs is a few quick bursts of armor repair before they destroy them. Amarr are meant to take the punishment and keep on coming. Why would they need sustainability anyway? They can take the punishment in the first place.
Caldari in my mind are intended to hang back and pelt with missiles, this means that they'll be at a disadvantage in terms of range (and by association, DPS). They need sustainability. Besides, its also their first line of defense. The timing works different on a first line versus a second line tank. Caldari need to reinforce immediately while Gallente and Amarr can wait a bit before engaging their tank. I know, as a Gallente, that I have a hard time breaking a Caldari tank, so, as a result, I pick my battles.
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pain supplier
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.29 14:51:00 -
[20]
Edited by: pain supplier on 29/08/2007 14:51:36
OP
These things you are complaining about are balancing mechanisms, you can't have it all.
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Mudkest
MetaForge
Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.08.29 17:15:00 -
[21]
best sollution I can think off,
If you are not happy with reduced repair cycle(and being able to take more damage) then dont train repair system operations?
I mean, seriously, if you find perma-running your setup more important then being able to repair more damage in same amount of time, dont train repair operations skill!
or fit another repper, a named one with lower cap/second usage
or fit ammo that requires less cap usage(trade off is lwoer damage output but again you gain the sustainability you want)
replace a midslot tihngie with a cap recharger.
I mean, there's no-one holding a gun to your head telling you what to train and fit is there?(if there is, nod yes with your eyes O.O)
-----
GIEV custom ship paint jobs!
I want my hello-kitty-kessie! |
Blue Wraith
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Posted - 2007.08.29 19:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Xaen
My point is that there is a skill that affects armor repairing that can cause a setup that was previously sustainable to become non-sustainable with no other change in skills or setup. That, coupled with the fact that you cannot untrain skills can lead to formerly sustainable setups being irrecoverably broken.
I did not miss the point of your post. You missed the point that things have to be balanced or everyone will fly the same ship. You can't have the easiest perma tank (even with the "negative" side effects) and shortest tank train and expect all tanking skills to have no (indirect) negatives. Well, I suppose you could expect that, but it would be foolish. Since you made the comparison to shields, I thought I would give you a few more angles to look at versus shields. Heck even the shield side doesn't lack negative side effect skills. Search the forums for people complaining about "tactical shield manip" to see for yourself. As a side note, they finally fixed level 5 of that skill, according to the patch notes.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2007.08.29 22:11:00 -
[23]
Op owns himself to be honest. "IF I MAKE MY TANK BETTER I CAN'T ON AND FORGET THEM ANYMORES." Also remember gank or tank. Higher dps skills means lower tank. Fit projectiles or missles if you wanna be a tanker.
Guess what? You're tank fails faster than the higher skilled tank because hes tanking more damage. If one level of controlled bursts owns your tank, so will a single small nos/neut.
Typical mission runner. If you wanna be able to disconnect during missions and not die, fit less or smaller guns. When I disconnect in the middle of a fleet fight I die either way though 
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente
Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.08.30 12:54:00 -
[24]
There may be implants which help you; for example, there is one that improves your cap recharge 5%.
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