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The solution to carebear loss of cargo

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Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:44:00 - [1] In real life, ships that carry cargo have it insured against loss. This is as old as merchant shipping itself. There would be an insurance market - where you could invest in the insurance market. Insurance would then become a special type of contract. There are several advantages to this. 1. The hauler would know his insurance costs in advance, and be able to add them to the price of doing business. 2. Ship insurance would be replaced by this system. 3. Each load would be insured for whatever level of risk the player is willing to assume - including no insurance. "Contingent cargo insurance" which is very limited in that they only pay based on the weight of your shipment, not the declared value. In addition, they don't cover high risk items, or high valued items. This insurance is sold by Secure Commerce, not players. It only pays if you don't have primary coverage. If you want better coverage for the declared value of your shipment, regardless of the carrier's terms, then "primary coverage" is the answer. "Primary coverage" covers all commodities, for any amount contracted. Primary coverage is sold by players. You would probably pay 5 to 10% of the value of the cargo (depending on the conditions) up front, and they would pay 50% of the value of the cargo if you were destroyed. The money to be paid would be in escrow until the shipment was complete, or the term of insurance (probably measured in days) was expired. If you had been dealing with the same insurer for primary coverage for a while, they could raise the payoff percentage to as high as 100%, depending on their own estimate of risk - whether or not you can be trusted to not commit insurance fraud (i.e., having your corpmates or alt blow up your ship). The insurance contract can have several standard conditions: 1. The minimum security that the cargo can be carried in. 2. The type of ship the cargo must be flown in. 3. The minimum skill level of the pilot. 4. The ship destruction record of the pilot over the past three months is taken into account on any insurance contract. 5. War automatically voids insurance the moment it is declared. 6. There would have to be a tool to calculate the declared value of cargo based on market conditions averaged over a month. 7. Your sec status would be a factor in estimating risk. People at -10 obviously could never get any insurance. 8. Self-destructing would negate any insurance payoff. It takes a bit more refining to get this right, but I believe I'm on the right track. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:17:00 - [2] Its actually odd that you'd post this, I was thinking something similar this morning. I was prompted to come up with it because I was thinking about the "pirates shouldn't get insurance" argument that crops up (this time on EVETV). I don't think it makes sense to remove it, because the pirates would just get insurance from someone shady. Setting up a player-based insurance market and removing the standard insurance would be great IMO. _____________________________________________ My Wishlist
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:32:00 - [3] Originally by: SN3263827 Its actually odd that you'd post this, I was thinking something similar this morning. I was prompted to come up with it because I was thinking about the "pirates shouldn't get insurance" argument that crops up (this time on EVETV). I don't think it makes sense to remove it, because the pirates would just get insurance from someone shady. Setting up a player-based insurance market and removing the standard insurance would be great IMO. If you were a pirate willing to pay the right rate to a player on contract, I'm sure that even a pirate could get player-based insurange. I think that there should still be a SCC-based insurance, but it should insure cargo you actually possess, and should be by weight only - not actual value. Something pegged to the equivalent mass in veld. Player-based insurance could solve a lot of problems. How it works can be discussed and planned - but the core idea has got to be far more workable and solve more problems. If carebears are worried about being blown up, and losing their cargoes, they should insure the cargo - then the contractor can specify conditions - don't fly in low sec, don't fly without escort, yadda yadda... ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Drethon Gallente Selinir Industries	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:48:00 - [4] See courier contracts. Make a deposit large enough to cover the value of said item and make it someone else's problem. If its irreplaceable, don't let it off your station, even a 100 ship escort might not be enough.
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars The Sundering	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:37:00 - [5] the problem with cargo (or module) insurance is that it is not all destroyed so lets consider this... you can now insure cargo... you insure 1 billion worth of cargo for 300 million (30%) "pirate" pops you takes 500 million worth of cargo (half gets destroyed) you get 1 billion back (700 million after the "cost" of insurance) you and pirate friend now have 1.2 billion value, where before you had 1 billion ... the reason a ship can be insured is that when it goes pop... it is gone... someone else can't take the ship. Cargo and module insurance, if it were to work, could only apply to destroyed modules/cargo with out being out being abused... and at that point... how much do you insure... since it is possible that all might get popped, or just one or two modules? Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Quutar the problem with cargo (or module) insurance is that it is not all destroyed so lets consider this... you can now insure cargo... you insure 1 billion worth of cargo for 300 million (30%) "pirate" pops you takes 500 million worth of cargo (half gets destroyed) you get 1 billion back (700 million after the "cost" of insurance) you and pirate friend now have 1.2 billion value, where before you had 1 billion ... the reason a ship can be insured is that when it goes pop... it is gone... someone else can't take the ship. Cargo and module insurance, if it were to work, could only apply to destroyed modules/cargo with out being out being abused... and at that point... how much do you insure... since it is possible that all might get popped, or just one or two modules? The cargo would have to be tagged in the insurance system, so you know when it's blown up. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars The Sundering	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Quutar the problem with cargo (or module) insurance is that it is not all destroyed so lets consider this... you can now insure cargo... you insure 1 billion worth of cargo for 300 million (30%) "pirate" pops you takes 500 million worth of cargo (half gets destroyed) you get 1 billion back (700 million after the "cost" of insurance) you and pirate friend now have 1.2 billion value, where before you had 1 billion ... the reason a ship can be insured is that when it goes pop... it is gone... someone else can't take the ship. Cargo and module insurance, if it were to work, could only apply to destroyed modules/cargo with out being out being abused... and at that point... how much do you insure... since it is possible that all might get popped, or just one or two modules? The cargo would have to be tagged in the insurance system, so you know when it's blown up. right... but how do you pre pay for the insurance... if you don't know how much needs to be insured? if you insure all of it... and only a single module gets destroyed... how do you then be sure that the pirate is not just an alt of the industrial pilot who then takes the modules, sells them on the market, and transfers the money to a third alt? "laundering" money in eve is easy... and with out making normal gameplay to complex would be impossible to keep money from going to the original person who took out the insurance. and you can't void out the insurance if the modules are not destroyed... because the legit businessmen who take out the cargo/module insurance for the right reasons and are popped by a real pirate would get screwed. I can't see any way of making a working insurance system that helps the legit businessmen with out being able to be abused by the more... creative individuals in this game. Not with out a major overhaul of the accountability and anonymity this game provides. Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars The Sundering	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Agent Li The cargo would have to be tagged in the insurance system, so you know when it's blown up. also... how do you tell the difference between a real pirate who blows up the hauler, and then sells/transfers the modules... to a pirate who works with the "victim" and shares the money with him... even if they use two or three alts to launder the money through? you can tell what survives... but how do you know that it was a legit hit vs an attempt at insurance fraud? Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Quutar Originally by: Agent Li The cargo would have to be tagged in the insurance system, so you know when it's blown up. also... how do you tell the difference between a real pirate who blows up the hauler, and then sells/transfers the modules... to a pirate who works with the "victim" and shares the money with him... even if they use two or three alts to launder the money through? you can tell what survives... but how do you know that it was a legit hit vs an attempt at insurance fraud? 1. There should be a central record of all losses. And, if the some, but not all, cargo is blown up, you get paid (in my original post) 50% of the value of the lost cargo. We would not pay for stuff not destroyed. 2. Since everyone would have a loss record, if your loss record was repetitive and great, no one would offer you insurance. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
MASTER SMAMMAH	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:08:00 - [10] Good idea.
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars The Sundering	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Agent Li 1. There should be a central record of all losses. And, if the some, but not all, cargo is blown up, you get paid (in my original post) 50% of the value of the lost cargo. We would not pay for stuff not destroyed. 2. Since everyone would have a loss record, if your loss record was repetitive and great, no one would offer you insurance. the problem is that to a legit customer... the fact that they lost the cargo, whether destroyed or taken by the pirate... and that is what they are insuring against. Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
Arouu	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:12:00 - [12] What if you have an expensive item in 0.0, and there are no buy orders and no-one will buy it on contract? Instant way to sell it, if you could insure your cargo. You could load it into a shuttle, and get someone to shoot you. Bad idea.
Nexus Kinnon Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:28:00 - [13] CCP are trying to cut down on ISK faucets, remember?
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:29:00 - [14] Hmmm, this is interesting. What people may be unaware of is that from an insurers perspective a pirate "cargo" ship is less likely to be blown up as the pirates secure their space. What the average carebear will find is that their insurance premium is likely to be higher because they're more likely to explode. Sounds like a good idea. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:14:00 - [15] Why not go the whole hog and make it so that if you lose anything at all it instantly gets replaced new-for-old, T2-for-t1, faction-for-t2, and a billion bucks for the inconvenience? Get rid of insurance altogether would be a sharper move.
Tuto Strike	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Gaven Blands Get rid of insurance altogether would be a sharper move. /signed
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:08:00 - [17] I think it's a step in the wrong direction as far as eve is concerned. Harsh and painful losses go hand in hand with prosperity and i would hate to see it turn into low risk/loss like in wow where you never lose anything. A better solution would be for traders to wisen up and stop hauling said billions in t1 haulers through known gank points and use scouts etc etc. It rewards the smart and punishes the dumb and i sincerely hope it stays that way 50+ Capitals well fitted = 150 Billion Day's of prep and planning = 3 Hours of hellish lag Look on coalition faces when they realize their fleet evaporated for............nothing = Priceless
Cheese999 Minmatar Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:33:00 - [18] As long as there is a possibility for modules/cargo to survive the wreck there should not be insurance for it. However moving ship (hull) insurance to this system would rock. It would be just like the current system, unscammable (assuming the numbers are right of course) ----- There is no Spoon Minmatar: Bending over for Tux since RmR Originally by: Outa Rileau bring a nosdomi to a fleet, and your fc will most likely call you primary.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:43:00 - [19] Are you guys even READING what he's saying? He's not proposing that SCC pays out the stuff. He's proposing contracts for player-driven insurance for cargo & stuff. I'd move the insurance business from SCC to player hands completely. Would be a bit harder on people, but meh. Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Kshlak Hator inc	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:42:00 - [20] I was thinking about setting an insurance business already, however figured after some time it would be quite difficult for management - and the last thing I wanted was to create a second job for my in-game :) You could solve the whole problem with player cooperation and blowing stuff on purpose by stetting insurance contract in a way, that ONLY ITEMS DESTROYED would be paid for. - You would provide a list of items you want to insure - Insurance would be based as a % of market cost of these items, multiplied by certain coefficients }sec, player, etc) - You have to provide screenshot of ship destruction mail with list of items destroyed - Items destroyed would be paid for in % dependent on type of insurance Remember - money gained from insurance claims is there to help you to lower the losses, not replace them. Yeah, an removing CCP insurance would help a lot to actually start this type of business, as currently there is no way to compete against it and it has no limits on financing. It would be interesting to see profit and loss statement of in-game insurance company, i bet it would be deep in red numbers.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:58:00 - [21] You could only insure things at Mineral costs, which on the expensive items drops there price 10-1000 fold. If it was based on market averages it would be abused. Aweful, exploitable, stupid idea.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.30 14:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Saint Luka You could only insure things at Mineral costs, which on the expensive items drops there price 10-1000 fold. If it was based on market averages it would be abused. Aweful, exploitable, stupid idea. Hello? WTS reading comprehension for 10M a piece The idea is, it's a player-run business, not the SCC crap. Read the OP. Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Cpt Branko Hello, listen to me Me ME MEEEEEEEEEEEE Yes, we know. We don't care. Insurance is stupid, not one of us is looking forward to hearing whines about insurance scams/fraud, nobody wants CCP to start storing huge amounts of more information to lag us up even while they sort out who insured what cargo every time a ship pops. Insurance isn't necessary right off the bat, not needing insurance is the answer, and at times when you DO need insurance, bring some with you.
Stephannus Calimben	Posted - 2007.08.31 01:13:00 - [24] why not work insurance kind of like a courier contract. you choose where you're starting, where you're going and what youre taking. the cargo is bundled up into a package and the value of it is calculated. then it's just about rigging payouts so that the majority of the time no new value will be created ie insurance payout + value of surviving modules - insurance cost < original total value or in the 1 billion cargo example payout + 500 million (50% x 1 billion) - 300 million (30% * 1 billion)< 1 billion or payout < 800 million many trader's would still pay this amount, as they still stand to gain money through the route. ie if you could run jita to rancer in half the time by going through low sec and minimize that risk, you could make alot more than the 0 risk route thats twice as long. It may also bring more miners into low sec, as their haulers bringing the minerals back into high sec can insure their cargo. not to mention that all us pirates stand to gain from slightly more adventurous carebears

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