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King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
146
   |
Posted - 2012.01.18 11:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
mmm, capless lasers and +1 gun, I can go for that. It wouldn't be overpowered compared to cynabals and vigilants, but it would certainly be different. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
48
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 12:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
I think laser cap use and fitting is a more general problem than Sansha ships alone. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
301
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 15:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:mmm, capless lasers and +1 gun, I can go for that. It wouldn't be overpowered compared to cynabals and vigilants, but it would certainly be different.
That's what I was going for. I'm not sure I didn't overdo it, but as the ships are in the OP right now, I'd want to fly a Phantasm as much as I want to fly an Ashimmu or a Cynabal (and same goes for the other ships). |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 06:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:King Rothgar wrote:mmm, capless lasers and +1 gun, I can go for that. It wouldn't be overpowered compared to cynabals and vigilants, but it would certainly be different.
this could put it on par with the other pirate BSs provided they don't also take any of the other bonuses away. or they could just give it a much better capacitor.
also +1 for keeping existing bonuses and adding 1 turret and capless lasers
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Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2012.01.22 03:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
bump! |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2012.01.22 10:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
sorry for the post |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2012.01.24 08:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
bump! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
331
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Posted - 2012.01.24 12:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
Bump for the glory of Master Kuvakei's ships. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2012.01.25 07:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Bump for the glory of Master Kuvakei's ships.
Bump for the Glory of the shield tanked laser boat! |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 10:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
the Vindicator does even more damage than this while webbing everything down
Yeah, but it comes at a price. While Vindicator can spit more that 1500 hate per second, it does within this so called "zone of commitment" - is itself being webbed, scrambled and possibly neuted. What you propose amounts to giving Nightmare best subcap dps ever AND ability to dictate range. Talk about "I WIN" button.
(Feel free to flame me - I don't know crap about PvP.) |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
354
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 18:45:00 -
[41] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:
the Vindicator does even more damage than this while webbing everything down
Yeah, but it comes at a price. While Vindicator can spit more that 1500 hate per second, it does within this so called "zone of commitment" - is itself being webbed, scrambled and possibly neuted. What you propose amounts to giving Nightmare best subcap dps ever AND ability to dictate range. Talk about "I WIN" button. (Feel free to flame me - I don't know crap about PvP.)
Those are still Mega Pulse Lasers. Get within 10 km of them and they won't hit jack. I actually look forward to killing something like this in a Thorax someday. The Vindi's webs amount to just as much range dictation, btw, just at different ranges: Vindi is a short range ship, Nightmare is a long range ship.
I can talk about "I WIN" buttons all day: they're pirate faction battleships and cost 1+ bil each. Or capital ships, which cost even more and have even more firepower/tank/range/etc. It's called "getting your money's worth". This buff would make the Nightmare worth the obnoxious amount of ISK it costs. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 07:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:
the Vindicator does even more damage than this while webbing everything down
Yeah, but it comes at a price. While Vindicator can spit more that 1500 hate per second, it does within this so called "zone of commitment" - is itself being webbed, scrambled and possibly neuted. What you propose amounts to giving Nightmare best subcap dps ever AND ability to dictate range. Talk about "I WIN" button. (Feel free to flame me - I don't know crap about PvP.)
FLAME ON!
you don't know crap about PVP
flame off
the nightmare has the same tank as any shield tanked boat and the same DPS capability of an abbadon without the tanking capability at a much higher cost, it has the same benefit of having a tracking script tracking computer. The only true thing the nightmare can do over other ships is it has good fitting (with skills) and use tachs. any ship can dictate range by sitting cloaked in a safe spot but its much harder to hold something down and kill it or avoid death yourself. faction battleships have a tendancy to scream "KILL ME! I DROP SHINEYS!" however, the vindi, blag, and the mach are the only 3 capable of being used in PVP without turning into an expensive loss mail 90% of the time.
also bump! |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 10:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Barbie D0ll wrote:
FLAME ON!
you don't know crap about PVP
flame off
Guilty as presumed. But I have my EFT skill at IV though. ;)
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Those are still Mega Pulse Lasers. Get within 10 km of them and they won't hit jack. I actually look forward to killing something like this in a Thorax someday. The Vindi's webs amount to just as much range dictation, btw, just at different ranges: Vindi is a short range ship, Nightmare is a long range ship.
My point was that pulses have 15+10 range on multi/conflag before TE/TC/bonuses are involved. It's slightly out of range of typical webs, plus you can increase this range and still be dealing nice damage. While for Vindi 11,5+15,5 is already the longest stick it has with Nulls, or 14,5+12,5 with irons. So giving to Mare dps on par with Vindi feels wrong to me as it breaks general rule of thumb that the better dps the shorter should be distance it could be applied at.
I mean, I've never flown the Nightmare and so I don't know this ship's strengths and weaknesses. Maybe the buff is needed but for the reason above increasing raw dps isn't the way to go.
Now crawling back under my carebear rock... |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 16:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
some recons can hit 50+ km with webs and scrams using faction equipment and gang links, not that its needed because you can probe a battleship in under a minute and gang warp everyone to 0
EDIT: EFT is for fitting purposes and for getting an idea of what your ship is capable of under ideal circumstances. non-ideal circumstances include getting attacked by fleets of rifters, canes, or tornadoes. it can also tell you how many falcons it takes to jam you (Hint: its never more than 1), or how many alphas from tornadoes its going to take.
Edit2: a nm with 1400+ dps is not an IWIN button, it is still a flying loss mail. and it doesnt matter if you take out 2 or 3 maelstroms before you die because you will still be in the red with efficiency. |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
41
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Posted - 2012.01.26 17:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
The Nightmare has good DPS at range but really lacks the agility, tank, utility, or speed to be used effectively in PvP. The Mach is widely popular in small/mid sized fleets since it has a reasonable chance of survival. Vindicators and Balgorns have awesome utility but tend to be used in more limited or specialized combat.
ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
366
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 18:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Barbie D0ll wrote:
FLAME ON!
you don't know crap about PVP
flame off
Guilty as presumed. But I have my EFT skill at IV though. ;) Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Those are still Mega Pulse Lasers. Get within 10 km of them and they won't hit jack. I actually look forward to killing something like this in a Thorax someday. The Vindi's webs amount to just as much range dictation, btw, just at different ranges: Vindi is a short range ship, Nightmare is a long range ship.
My point was that pulses have 15+10 range on multi/conflag before TE/TC/bonuses are involved. It's slightly out of range of typical webs, plus you can increase this range and still be dealing nice damage. While for Vindi 11,5+15,5 is already the longest stick it has with Nulls, or 14,5+12,5 with irons. So giving to Mare dps on par with Vindi feels wrong to me as it breaks general rule of thumb that the better dps the shorter should be distance it could be applied at. I mean, I've never flown the Nightmare and so I don't know this ship's strengths and weaknesses. Maybe the buff is needed but for the reason above increasing raw dps isn't the way to go. Now crawling back under my carebear rock...
While your range argument is true, recall the Vindicator also has a full flight of heavy drones, more base EHP, is almost 50% faster, more agile, more tracking with Void than the Nightmare has with Multifrequency (!) and with something like a couple True Sansha Stasis Webifiers, it can stop any ship at up to 20 km dead in its tracks. The Nightmare might have the advantage in range (as laser ships always do), but the fact still stands that it is extremely vulnerable to anything at short range because of its lack of lots of drones, poor laser tracking (somewhat mitigated by the bonus), and inability to devote too many mid slots to tackle because of the need for tank.
The best role I can see it playing is an anti-skirmish ship: something you bring on the field when there's a Machariel dicking around and you want to just shoot it out of the sky. It can also serve as heavy firepower support, or 5 AHACs packed into one ship.
The Nightmare, like all pirate faction battleships, remains a giant target and an eventual very expensive lossmail. Since it's not even that tanky, and its range and damage are the only things it has going for it, that damage had better be really friggin good. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
3
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Posted - 2012.01.26 21:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
I'll spare massive quotation, but all you three, Barbie, Fidelium and Petrus made similar observation: that it's not the dps what Nightmare is missing. Thus I'd go further and dare opinion that adding the firepower won't solve any of its problems.
Besides, for every purpose there will be a ship which is best to fulfill it. The alternative would be if every ship was the same. The problem begins when certain ship or ships comparatively suck at everything it's reasonable to use them for and only that would in fact call for a buff.
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Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2012.01.27 07:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
I am in favor of giving the nightmare either more dps and capless lasers, or similar to destroyer tracking bonus, or both!
It would be justified because of all the other things it lacks in
fu forum for trying to eat my post |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
379
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 08:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Someone I was talking to about this (outside the forums) pointed out that while these sorts of changes would fix the Sansha lineup for PvP, they might break the lineup for PvE -- particularly the Nightmare. What do you think? |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Someone I was talking to about this (outside the forums) pointed out that while these sorts of changes would fix the Sansha lineup for PvP, they might break the lineup for PvE -- particularly the Nightmare. What do you think?
This is what I was told once or twice: that Nightmare really shines in PvE. So maybe the "problem" is it's just better suited for PvE than for PvP, not the PvP performance alone? |
muhadin
the united
Negative Ten.
51
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 14:41:00 -
[51] - Quote
I agree that the succubus and phantasm need buff. However the nightmare is fine the way it is, the main problem is that it just not fit into the current style of pvp, pvp styles are constantly evolving and changing based on how ships are buffed and nerfed.
"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love" |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 08:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
bump! |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 23:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
bump |
2ofSpades
Exploration and Intelligence Agency
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 06:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
I agree... The Phantasm should have a bit more PG and maybe a small cap upgrade. On the subject of pirate ships the ashimus drone bay is worthless at least give it 3 light drones. I think the phant and ashimu should both have 5 light drones, they are 100mil isk + per a ship. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 15:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
bump for the glory of a shield tanked lazar boat! |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
139
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 17:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
This would totally break the PVE nightmare. It already tears through L4 missions with ease. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 09:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:This would totally break the PVE nightmare. It already tears through L4 missions with ease.
mach still outdoes nightmare in PVP and PVE. ive seen incursion fleets composed of 10 machs, 1 logi, and an offgrid booster |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 02:48:00 -
[58] - Quote
never gonna give you up! |
Julius Priscus
The Logistical Nightmare
0
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Posted - 2012.02.01 20:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
any changes to the sansha ship range will make my maina happy chappy
please make this ship even better!!! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
409
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 20:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:This would totally break the PVE nightmare. It already tears through L4 missions with ease.
Plenty of other ships do too, but they have combat uses outside L4 missions as well. I could concede a little on my proposed changes to the Nightmare, as those are lasers and have great range, but the Nightmare does badly need a buff -- L4 missions or not.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
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