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A Formal Apology to CAIN from Electus Matari

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Vinchu Minmatar Rogues	Posted - 2007.09.03 21:04:00 - [31] Cain making treats is highly amusing, if not for the background. I look forward to follow the developments. Nice work EM. Vin
Primus Geffur Minmatar Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.09.03 22:07:00 - [32] Funny how CAIN always accuse Acheron of meddling. Pot meet kettle. ---
Galen Darksmith Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Aunni Ti Tsuun Consortium	Posted - 2007.09.03 22:09:00 - [33] Originally by: Primus Geffur Funny how CAIN always accuse Acheron of meddling. Pot meet kettle. That don' scan right. How th' hell was CAIN meddlin'? Takin' out a Caldari terrorist in Caldari space?
Evanda Char Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.09.04 01:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Iyachtu Achlysiel May I ask, Evanda Char, why it took you over two years to launch active reprisals for Dr. Hnolku's death? I will not suggest any unflattering ideas for now, since undoubtedly there is some perfectly good reason, but I really do find your timing rather curious. Because two years ago I wasn't running EM. Now I am. Plus that exploding freighter didn't do your reputation any favours. Guess that puts me on the same boosters as Verone, for finding the megadeath of unarmed civilians repulsive. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.04 03:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Aria Jenneth Ah, this was that operation. I have no idea why anyone considers Torvil worth shedding blood over. His attempted revolution has failed, and his death appears at this point to be only a matter of time. Someone may eventually bring revolution to the Caldari State, but it won't be him. Even for the revolutionaries in our midst, I can't see any particular reason to waste additional resources and lives on him. He failed. He took on what he thought was a corrupt State, rotten to the core and ready to fall; what he found was a State still strong and efficient enough to put down his rebellion in a matter of days. Depending, now, on outside assistance for his survival will merely serve to discredit him and mute any chance he might have had for martyrdom by suggesting that he truly was the pawn of powers from beyond Caldari space. Torvil is of little use to any of you, now, alive or dead. He'll get a mention in the history books, I'm sure, but at this point it might as well be an epitaph. Of course, if he's still useable to bait people who continue to attach some significance to him ... well, I suppose that's something. Interestingly enough, that's the way I see matters now, as well. I never fully supported the BoF in and of itself. I did, however, support the dissent that they represented. However, Torvil has shown himself to be no different than those he claims to fight. He's willing to sacrifice those around him to save his own skin, all while claiming that, without his leadership, the cause that he fights for will fail. He is a fool for failing to see that we fight for a cause; the cause does not fight for us. Having said that, when he contacted me, my comrades and myself chose to take the opportunity to show how terribly weak the State has become. When the pathetically small Naval expedition saw how dwarfed it was by the assembled might of the Free Captains, they didn't even dare summon sufficient reinforcements to dislodge us. Instead, Commanders Jurensai and Kusgarl found themselves where many a Fractionite target has gone before: local dockside bars. I am not sorry to have avoided an opportunity to destroy ships containing thousands of loyal (if misguided) Caldari. However, when the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction came to spit in the eye of the State and all that it represents, I could not help but feel slightly ashamed for the State when it covered its eyes and hid. The next time the propagandists of the State tell you that the corporate system is the key to Caldari strength, remember Tannolen. _
Aria Jenneth Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:17:00 - [36] Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 04/09/2007 05:19:54 For reasons which should be obvious to all concerned, I make it a policy not to debate Star Fraction members. You, however, Mr. Ledoux, have earned a permanent exception to that rule. It's good to see you, by the way. While the failure of the State to take on the Fraction is, from some angle, embarrassing, there is one other angle you might look at this from: from what I understand, what you had arrayed for the defense of Torvil was an array of heavy vessels up to and including multiple capital ships. The State wants Torvil; there's really no question, there. It probably could have taken him, but to do so it would have had to pay a price in blood-- more blood, most likely, than the State was willing to pay. As evidence of its relative lack of weakness, I'd point to the Caldari Navy force that arrived to take control in the aftermath of the Omerta attack on an Ishukone holding a few months ago, which included a great number of heavy ships that, within minutes, expanded to include a Wyvern-class mothership. We had brought only a handful of battleships and support. The Caldari State can apply overwhelming force when it chooses. Now, let's take a look at the opposing force: Fractionists, being capsuleers, are deadly when facing conventional forces. Even multiple capital ships could eventually be taken down, but the results in terms of casualties would be ... ridiculous. Hundreds of thousands of trained crewmembers, plus ships and war material, all lost for the sake of causing a few anarchist capsuleers some inconvenience and taking out one failed rebel. Not ... bloody ... worth it. Unlike many capsuleers, the State doesn't seem to regard petty insults to its pride to be worth vast numbers of deaths. It has other means and other opportunities to eliminate Torvil, and, having encountered this much resistance in space, it seems more likely to accomplish its aim by arranging for the former rebel leader to slow an assassin's bullet down very slightly with his head, an event the Fraction is unlikely to be able to prevent. Frankly, if the State had insisted on massacring its own soldiers, and yours, for the sake of getting at one man (and to deal your cause a relatively minor blow), I'd be wondering whether Torvil had really failed. A failure to meet on the field of a battle you had intended to fight does not necessarily demonstrate weakness, Mr. Ledoux. It might, I will grant, and it does provide a bit of a propaganda piece; however, what seems much more likely is that it demonstrates restraint, a quality our kind frequently seems to lack. If, much like you, the State is reluctant to send its citizens to their deaths needlessly, would that not suggest not that it is weak, but that it is responsible-- and thus, functioning as it should be?
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.04 08:08:00 - [37] To be clear, our fleet was not there to defend Torvil. He wasn't even there to defend. We were there as a direct challenge to State sovereignty. We were there to prevent the State from exercising any meaningful projection of military force. We made it abundantly clear to Kusgarl and Jurensai that controlled that system. We were expecting (and many were looking forward to) the aformentioned 'overwhelming force.' However, the Navy declined to defend their sovereign space or the crews threatened by our blockade. You are probably correct that they did a calculation and decided that it was not worth the risk. I will disagree that the thought of casualties factored heavily in the decision. Rather, I believe that the Navy chose not to challenge us because they were afraid of what would happen in the not-unlikely event that they lost. So, in the end, where you see reason and restraint, I simply see impotence. _
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.04 08:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Evanda Char Guess that puts me on the same boosters as Verone, for finding the megadeath of unarmed civilians repulsive. But not when your organisation destroys civilian transports, apparently. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Evanda Char Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.09.04 08:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Evanda Char Guess that puts me on the same boosters as Verone, for finding the megadeath of unarmed civilians repulsive. But not when your organisation destroys civilian transports, apparently. I don't consider an arbitrator to be a civilian transport. Especially not one that webs, scrambles and looses drones on me. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.04 09:25:00 - [40] Originally by: Evanda Char Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Evanda Char Guess that puts me on the same boosters as Verone, for finding the megadeath of unarmed civilians repulsive. But not when your organisation destroys civilian transports, apparently. I don't consider an arbitrator to be a civilian transport. Especially not one that webs, scrambles and looses drones on me. I wasn't aware that Imperial Human Resources used Arbitrators to move around their passengers. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jack Folstam Minmatar Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:03:00 - [41] The IHR Transport in the operation I was involved in (a bestower as I recall, and not a freighter) was offered a chance to surrender. He refused, and we were left no other option than to destroy him to free as many people as possible. Also, considering it was Imperial Human Resources with an armed escort (possibly amarr navy issue vessels, I can't remember), not exactly a civilian ship eh? *Jack Folstam hits t2 anti-sighijack button
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Jack Folstam The IHR Transport in the operation I was involved in (a bestower as I recall, and not a freighter) was offered a chance to surrender. He refused, and we were left no other option than to destroy him to free as many people as possible. Also, considering it was Imperial Human Resources with an armed escort (possibly amarr navy issue vessels, I can't remember), not exactly a civilian ship eh? So in your book it's fine to murder passengers in cold-blood just as long as they're in an escorted Bestower, but those same people would be off-limits if they were in an unescorted freighter? As for Imperial Human Resources, they can't really be described as a military group. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jack Folstam Minmatar Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:21:00 - [43] Edited by: Jack Folstam on 04/09/2007 14:22:28 If left no other option to free the slaves (notice the difference in terminology here), their deaths were regrettable, but unavoidable. Best option when all options are bad and all that. Referring to slaves as passengers implies that they were willing, when they weren't. That said, our intention was to destroy the escort and then give the Bestower pilot a chance to reconsider, but I think someone got a little trigger-happy in the chaos, and then you were bearing down on us with a heavy fleet and all so.... At any rate (I do ramble, don't I?) the Bestower pilot could have simply ejected the slaves in a container for us to retrieve, and the whole mess could have been avoided. But he didn't, and we were left with only one option to free anyone (and hopefully all, there was the chance that all of them would survive the explosion). Edit: Oh, and not exactly being military doesn't mean their civilian either. *Jack Folstam hits t2 anti-sighijack button
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:26:00 - [44] Originally by: Jack Folstam but I think someone got a little trigger-happy in the chaos, and then you were bearing down on us with a heavy fleet and all so.... If I recall correctly, there were two PIE pilots and one from 1PG in the constellation at the time. It's gratifying to see the panic that three of us can induce amongst terrorists. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jack Folstam Minmatar Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:39:00 - [45] Yes, at the time. I'm talking about the fleet of multiple battleships and battlecruisers that showed up late. Included some of those spiffy new-at-the-time Harbingers too, as I recall. Although you later said you were there to fight Defiants and had no knowlege of the IHR Convoy. Oh well. Did you really think we didn't have scouts? And since you didn't respond to most of the substance of my post, let me pose a hypothetical question: If a bunch of Amarr were being hauled off by a Sansha (Or blood raider, or whomever) transport, what would you do? (P.S - You can be 1 jump away from a system and be in a different constellation ) *Jack Folstam hits t2 anti-sighijack button
Robert Kauliford Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.09.04 22:33:00 - [46] Wow So EM consider this just revenge for events that happened over 2 years ago. I hate to think what other Matari believe is the correct punishment for what happened over 100 years ago. Then again maybe I shouldn't have reminded them. As far as I can tell it would have been better if the good doctor had lived. Then perhaps you would have lost your naive allusions regarding some miracle cure for Vitoc. Indeed the true cure for Vitoc is indeed a miracle but not one you could possibly comprehend.
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.09.04 22:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Robert Kauliford Wow So EM consider this just revenge for events that happened over 2 years ago. I hate to think what other Matari believe is the correct punishment for what happened over 100 years ago. Then again maybe I shouldn't have reminded them. As far as I can tell it would have been better if the good doctor had lived. Then perhaps you would have lost your naive allusions regarding some miracle cure for Vitoc. Indeed the true cure for Vitoc is indeed a miracle but not one you could possibly comprehend. Watch and listen carefully, Kauliford. This isn't our conflict at this time. Delictum 23216 Official forums
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.09.04 23:39:00 - [48] Originally by: Robert Kauliford Wow So EM consider this just revenge for events that happened over 2 years ago. I hate to think what other Matari believe is the correct punishment for what happened over 100 years ago. Then again maybe I shouldn't have reminded them. Revenge? Unless I am badly mistaken, it was more a matter of CAIN having proven themselves on several occasions to be enemies of the Matari people, and of the cause of Freedom for which we and our brethren in Electus Matari fight. Any groups that perpetuate the practice of slavery -- or support those who do -- would probably be well-advised to assume that they will be fired upon by those who find that practice abhorent. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Nathaniel Hull Caldari 808 Enterprises The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.05 05:00:00 - [49] Ms. Char you seem to operate under the assumption that the Matari would not have done the same to a traitor of their own. Since you have warred for years with your own blood who chose Amarr over the Republic, I do not believe you and your Kith and Kin to be the moral pendulam on this matter. A traitor was shot, good rittance now lets get back to making our respective states better not committing petty acts of terrorism and revenge. -Cpt. Hull
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.05 10:58:00 - [50] Fact remains simple: No organization has the right to persue justice into the space of another no matter how justified the cause. Or, I always thought that was the double standard you terroists use. On one hand it is not justifiable that I enter Matar space to claim what is for me rightfully my property. But it is ok for you to enter the space of another to do what you please bcause you feel justified in your actions. Ideological differences aside, even without the faith that guides me to a better understanding, your logic fails to impress. If you truly belive in republican ideals, then you would leave others to practice their own ways as you wish to be left to practice yours. This all simply reinfoces the reason why you all need to be reeducated - and first up is basic logic. ----
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.05 11:09:00 - [51] Will this come to blows? I'm asking, because I'd love to see it even though it does place me in the rather vexing position of not being quite sure who to root for. Though... The OP was so amusing and filled of justified sarcasm that it will have to be Electus. Evanda, give them a taste of the Maker's wrath.
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.09.05 11:33:00 - [52] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux To be clear, our fleet was not there to defend Torvil. He wasn't even there to defend. We were there as a direct challenge to State sovereignty. We were there to prevent the State from exercising any meaningful projection of military force. We made it abundantly clear to Kusgarl and Jurensai that controlled that system. We were expecting (and many were looking forward to) the aformentioned 'overwhelming force.' However, the Navy declined to defend their sovereign space or the crews threatened by our blockade. You are probably correct that they did a calculation and decided that it was not worth the risk. I will disagree that the thought of casualties factored heavily in the decision. Rather, I believe that the Navy chose not to challenge us because they were afraid of what would happen in the not-unlikely event that they lost. So, in the end, where you see reason and restraint, I simply see impotence. Its about numbers my traitor brother, why would you sacrifice thousands of lives to take one? Might as well nuke the whole system if it was up to you? as much as you might love the bloodshed, the state calculates odds, put it in other way, uses an organ called "brain". Maybe you have been away for too long and forgotten what our culture is about, or maybe you should stop thinking with your guts? You where in Tannolen doing the same thing you are doing here on GalNet, propaganda. The state doesn't even aknowledge your gang...err alliance as a threat. As my father used to say, go to work, or apply for gallente citizenship. Tovarich 17. -
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.09.05 23:02:00 - [53] Originally by: Ruah Piskonit If you truly belive in republican ideals, then you would leave others to practice their own ways as you wish to be left to practice yours. Sadly, if only you acted in accordance to your own logic, there would be no need to gun you down. Happily, CONCORD recognizes our right to do so, so long as we abide by the restrictions they have put into place. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.09.06 03:17:00 - [54] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/09/2007 03:21:23 Originally by: Robert Kauliford So EM consider this just revenge for events that happened over 2 years ago. Yes and no. While we were sitting at a gate, two ships red to us (standing -10, enemy) jumped in and we opened fire on them according to our rules of engagement: Red targets are KoS, kill on sight. That's all there is to this "incident." That these ships were CAIN is a mere coincidence. That some of the crimes that lead to these standings happened as long as two years ago is irrelevant. And to think we would move up to Caldari space to hunt CAIN is grossly overestimating their importance.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.06 09:18:00 - [55] Originally by: Becq Starforged Originally by: Ruah Piskonit If you truly belive in republican ideals, then you would leave others to practice their own ways as you wish to be left to practice yours. Sadly, if only you acted in accordance to your own logic, there would be no need to gun you down. Happily, CONCORD recognizes our right to do so, so long as we abide by the restrictions they have put into place. You miss the most important part. While you cry and moan and rage at the various 'injustices' you claim your people have suffered, you turn around and cross into someone else's space to do what you belive is right. See the similarity? We think we are right, you think you are right, we both do the same thing. Difference is: you were not a recognized government, and the Caldari state is - that is why you are a terrorist, and we were liberators. ----
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.09.06 12:17:00 - [56] Karn spits The difference is slaver you believe that the abuse and subjugation of others is necessary for you to live happily, we do not. You think you are right, I am right. You are filth, the ways of your people are corrupt, your beliefs are barbaric and immoral. ** the state, ** concords laws and those who clamber about those shakey structures. The truth is far simpler: your beliefs, your ideals, your vision for all of humantiy is diseased. You worship a black god who devours all that is good, who uses poison to enslave men and women who seek only to live their own lives. You threaten the very survival of the species with your entropic, inbred elitism. Bah .. why do I waste words ... Karn swigs from his drink Ushra'khan has not forgotten Hnolku and those that murdered him. Evanda you know where to find us. ----------------------------------------- Now recruiting.
Roy Gordon Caldari The Star Wolves Aunni Ti Tsuun Consortium	Posted - 2007.09.06 12:39:00 - [57] You Star Faction folk really have an inflated sense of self-importance dont you! Do you really think that by just merely turning up in a Caldari State owned system you would have warrented the attention of Naval forces? Had you actually done something like bombarding one of the stations there I am sure you would have received the 'welcome' you so craved! That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Ryan Darkwolf Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.06 18:57:00 - [58] It has been months since I have connected to the net, and this is what I find? How is it possible that Electus Matari is constantly being badgered, not only by my fellow Ammar but the Caldari State as well? I myself was apalled when 2 years ago Dr Hnolku was murdered. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve: I have seen your recruitment boards and thought that what you fought for was justice and truth...even after the assassination of Dr Hnolku...but to see such actions taking place against the Matari leaves me wondering what your justice really is. Dr Hnolku's research would have cured many of my crewmates who have been suffering from Vitoc dependancy for years and his death was a serious blow to my familiess and me Matari crew's hearts and minds. Yes my Ammarranian bretheren..I said my crewmates. The Matari members of my ship are not my slaves. They were never ment to be this way...but it seems that our past will soon catch up to us again. Our pride is going to get us killed..look at our battle for conquest against the Jovians....we lost so many brave men, and women...some of our best fleet commanders.. I will side with EM. Not because they are stronger or have larger numbers...but because what they fight for isjustice...a justice that has been waiting to appear for many years. ------------------- Quote: Waah ! CCP ! I have to face targets that can actually fight back ! Unfair ! NERF !
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.09.06 21:23:00 - [59] Edited by: Becq Starforged on 06/09/2007 21:25:38 Originally by: Ruah Piskonit You miss the most important part. While you cry and moan and rage at the various 'injustices' you claim your people have suffered, you turn around and cross into someone else's space to do what you belive is right. See the similarity? We think we are right, you think you are right, we both do the same thing. Difference is: you were not a recognized government, and the Caldari state is - that is why you are a terrorist, and we were liberators. Liberators? I've heard Amarrians called many things, but I have to say that is a first. In any case, you are missing the most important part. The entirety of your race (save the enlightened handful who have distanced themselves from the actions of the whole) have brought this war upon yourselves by making the choice to violate the most basic of human rights, by stealing the right to self-determination from countless innocent people who had committed no harm against you, nor had our ancestors or any of our bloodlines until after you began your program of oppressing us. And the war continues because you choose to continue to support this horrendous policy. We, on the other hand, are acting against people who have voluntarily chosen to be party in this conflict by the actions above. The difference is that you are targets based on the actions you take; we have been targets of your abuse by simply existing. Putting an end to this entire struggle is in the hands of your people, not mine. Release my brethren and there will be no further impetus for us to force you to do so by military means. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Ebon Seraph The Dominion Empire	Posted - 2007.09.06 21:56:00 - [60] Originally by: Ryan Darkwolf Yes my Ammarranian bretheren..I said my crewmates. The Matari members of my ship are not my slaves. They were never ment to be this way...but it seems that our past will soon catch up to us again. Our pride is going to get us killed..look at our battle for conquest against the Jovians....we lost so many brave men, and women...some of our best fleet commanders.. It always saddens me when I see a member of my own kind walking down the wrong path. I admit that the Empire is broken and it needs to be fixed. But simply removing the issue of slavery from Imperial law will not fix the problem. The overriding problem with the Empire is that it is in the hands of bureaucrats, with each agency carving out its own fiefdom from the infrastructure created by Emperors past. And while it is perceived by many holders that slavery is a right. Many holders do not yet realize that they too are slaves to the same bureaucracy that holds its grip on the government. It is no surprise that several Amarr, so disgusted with the current system have rebelled against the their true destiny and allied themselves with the other races looking for some sort of "equality". Casserina Negathema of the Blinded Eye Ebon Seraph recruiting!

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