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CCP does not enforce its own EULA or TOS

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Lowanaera Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.04 04:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Eventy I would like to keep him in my corp until he returns what isn't his. If he can abuse my members as he has, I should be able to deny him his right to leave until he returns what wasn't his. That decision isn't up to you however. Whether you agree with it or not, you have already been told by the GMs that 1)corp theft is perfectly permissible and 2)abusing roles to lock someone in a corp isn't. Persisting in that behavior will accomplish nothing aside from getting yourself banned.
Jita Alt	Posted - 2007.09.04 04:53:00 - [32] I love stupid people __________________________________ Calling you an idiot on a forum nearby
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.04 04:58:00 - [33] Quote: JonnyWarhawk, I welcome you to express your right NOT to read this thread, and to move along. ... ... Ever seen the sign they put on a military base? By entering here, you consent to be searched. If you do not consent, do not enter.. And what of ignorance? Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law. If you don't read or fail to understand that sign, ergo what you and the eula have done here, you're still privvy to what it dictates. Moreover if you dont understand the EULA, you shouldn't have clicked the "I understand and agree" checkbox when installing the game. Thus, you're in breach of your agreement with CCP. Quote: I would like to keep him in my corp until he returns what isn't his. If he can abuse my members as he has, I should be able to deny him his right to leave until he returns what wasn't his. No. What he did was within game mechanics. Abusing your members, sure, petition that. But corp theft is within the game mechanics. Using the broken "assign role" game mechanic to restrict someone leaving a corp is a recognised exploit, he'll petition it and you'll suffer for it. Nice way to sully yourself. Improve Market Competition!
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:00:00 - [34] How to get banned in one easy step: 1. Ignore GMs warning --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:01:00 - [35] Posting in a no legal grounds threat thread.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:04:00 - [36] Originally by: Arana Tellen How to get banned in one easy step: 1. Ignore GMs warning Just ask the guys in Zombie. I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:06:00 - [37] Edited by: Frug on 04/09/2007 05:05:59 I'm going to point something out that bugs me about the OP. As someone who roleplays using other mediums, I have to say that when you start bringing real life legal issues into things, start saying "this is illegal in my country, why doesn't CCP enforce it" it ticks me off. I dunno if you're an RP corp of if it's just this one guy who is a 'role-player' but stop getting confused between what happens in a game and what happens in real life. I can't stand RPers who don't know the difference, they're all fruitcakes and they pushed me away from RP in eve. He stole from you in the game. Everybody knows that theft is part of eve and it is strange how you can think you're entitled to some kind of legal treatment for this. Are you not emotionally stable? You're being ridiculous and on top of that you're countering his legitimate acquisition of your goods (it is entirely legitimate) by using an exploit to keep him in your corp. That just makes it ironic since the only person breaking the ToS is you. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:12:00 - [38] Just playing devil's advocate here, but maybe it shouldn't be deemed an exploit at all. Instead, one of two possible options. EITHER 1. Allow "hostage taking" of corp members. Perfectly legitimate. You joined them, you remain there until they let you go. Fits in perfectly with the EVE style of "you pay for your own stupidity or lack of preparation". OR 2. Remove the whole "must not have roles older as 24h" thing. Allow instant leaving from a corp. There's no other good reason to have that "feature" unless you plan to force members to stay in the corp. Name one good reason, I can't think of any. _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:14:00 - [39] iirc it had something to do with a bug/glitch that could get your character "stuck" from joining a new one, or allow access to corp resources after you left Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Moridin920 Gallente Dust Echoes FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.04 05:15:00 - [40] Just a quick note, he can't be arrested for digital theft because although it has been held up in courts, the EULA clearly states CCP still owns everything in the game, not the players. So he didn't steal anything from you, personally. From a legal standpoint, ownership did not change. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience our piracy may have caused you, but, we are pirates and, sadly, this is our way."
Terra Fury The Adeptus Mechanicus	Posted - 2007.09.04 06:44:00 - [41] Hello I read your post and I agree that this is very sad for you and your corporation to lose the things you worked hard to get. In this circumstance you allowed this player to gain access to corporate assets. Unfortunatly your petition is void because of the access you gave to the theif. You were deemed an exploiter for keeping the user in question in your corporation by using a known exploit. Your intentions are noble but this whole incident could have and should have been avoided if you had kept assets accessibe to yourself only. I'm sorry for the loss but there is nothing any of us can really do. If the user had used a known exploit of game mechanics then you could possibly petition CCP and hopefully get a response. regards, Terra Fury
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.09.04 07:23:00 - [42] Originally by: Eventy Abuse of players contravenes paragraph 1 of EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE. But not abuse of characters. ----- I'll be in my pod
Akile	Posted - 2007.09.04 07:40:00 - [43] It really doesn't matter if he did break the EULA. In the end it is the GM's decision the punishment, or lack there of. I had my account stolen, and my main character transferred off of it. Submitted a peition, quoted every part of the EULA which proved that the character was mine. The response from a Senior GM, was "This peition has been closed, any and all other petitions relating to this inncident will also be closed." So basically it really doesnt matter what the EULA says, CCP doesn't and rarely does follow it themselves.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.04 07:52:00 - [44] Quote: With naming names, and speaking generally, I first found out about his activities as CEO, when I received a report from three or more members who privately communicated to me that a co-member of the corp has dealt with them in an injurious manner. These private communications took place all within a day of one another, and the members who contacted me had no knowledge that this was happening to anyone other than them. Abuse of players contravenes paragraph 1 of EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE. This is the only part of your story that holds up, if the player did insult the 3 players he might get a temp ban or something. But indeed clearing the corp hangar isn't a violation of the EULA nor TOS. And the DMCA will only protect CCP if somebody would for example would start an Eve server without their acknowledgement, it doesn't have anything to do with loosing items to someone else (besides who are you gonna sue? The person who stole the stuff and might live in another country with diffrent rules then the USA? Or are you gonna sue CCP?). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.04 08:19:00 - [45] Am I the only one who wants to make fun of this guy for making the scammer in question the CEO of the stinking corp? Yeesh. How dumb do you have to be to just hand the keys to the kingdom over to some guy who might rip you off? You ask me, anyone who lost in this deal had it coming. _
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.04 08:33:00 - [46] Edited by: Stitcher on 04/09/2007 08:34:38 Quote: "*You are here by offically warned for keeping a player in your corp by adding roles to him to reset the 24 hour leave timer. This is not acceptable and considered an exploit.*" Oh look.... CCP DO enforce their EULA and ToS! How nice. Oh, and you got scammed and some guy stole from your corp? Hi there. Are you new? Welcome to EVE Online. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.09.04 08:37:00 - [47] Originally by: Eventy With naming names, and speaking generally, I first found out about his activities as CEO, when I received a report from three or more members who privately communicated to me that a co-member of the corp has dealt with them in an injurious manner. These private communications took place all within a day of one another, and the members who contacted me had no knowledge that this was happening to anyone other than them. Abuse of players contravenes paragraph 1 of EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE. Dude, you have dealt with me in an injurious manner by writing so much meaningless legalese and hurting my eyes. ----- I'll be in my pod
Twilight Interloper	Posted - 2007.09.04 09:09:00 - [48] It's my understanding that in basically every online game (I don't need to look at the EULA to know eve would be the same), all the stuff belongs to the game company, even if you actually gave them money for it. It is not your intellectual property and can not ever be legally stolen from you (this might change one day, and I expect it will as the real world economy slowly virtualises to use less natural resources) Virtual property (the notion of ownership) in online games is for fools. You don't have ANYTHING but pixels linked to a database, so treat it accordingly, and give some to me ;oP
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.04 09:30:00 - [49] Originally by: Eventy blah blah internet lawyer fart Article 9, Section 5 of the Get A Clue Act requires me to inform you that EVE isn't real life.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Akita T Just playing devil's advocate here, but maybe it shouldn't be deemed an exploit at all. Instead, one of two possible options. EITHER 1. Allow "hostage taking" of corp members. Perfectly legitimate. You joined them, you remain there until they let you go. Fits in perfectly with the EVE style of "you pay for your own stupidity or lack of preparation". OR 2. Remove the whole "must not have roles older as 24h" thing. Allow instant leaving from a corp. There's no other good reason to have that "feature" unless you plan to force members to stay in the corp. Name one good reason, I can't think of any. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:17:00 - [51] Quote: 1. You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. It this rule was violated (but the player must be threatened with out of game harm, not in game actions) and it can be proved, the player doing it can be banned temporar of permanently. In game menaces are part of the game. Quote: 10. You may not market, sell, advertise, promote, solicit or otherwise arrange for the exchange or transfer of items in the game or other game services unless it is for in-game sales of in-game services or items. This mean that exchange of property in-game can't be done for out of game items (i.e., no sale of isk for euros). If the whole exchange is in game, even if the in game "service" offered or the item offered is fake there is no violation of TOS.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Eventy Hello all, I have to narrate something that's happened which has raised my ire. Now please note, that by and large I think CCP has does a good job technically. However, I have to criticize their customer relations department or their rule enforcement group. We had a 'role-player' rob both the corp and members out of significant ISK. No big deal right? It happens? In the process of executing his hist, the player in question did a couple of specific things which enabled him to achieve his purpose. With naming names, and speaking generally, I first found out about his activities as CEO, when I received a report from three or more members who privately communicated to me that a co-member of the corp has dealt with them in an injurious manner. These private communications took place all within a day of one another, and the members who contacted me had no knowledge that this was happening to anyone other than them. Abuse of players contravenes paragraph 1 of EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE. Furthermore, the perpetrator in question managed to arranged for the transfer of items in the game for purposes other than sale, again contravening the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE, paragraph 10. This left a number of my players broke and owning a rookie ship again and feeling abused. So I contacted EVE support (via a petition) before anything else happened, and I informed them what had occurred. I did not hear from them for a number of days, which I took to look over the EULA and the TOS to see exactly what was permitted. I came across paragraph 7 of the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE which prohibits players from violating any local, state, national or international laws or regulations. This has to be a mistake, I thought. Theft, which is almost universally prohibited, is permitted in game. In fact, looking at US law, US law makers have expressedly rewritten US federal and most state law to include virtual things. The US Digital Millennium Copyright Act is the fruit of those labours. US law says that you can be arrested for stealing 'virtual stuff, data, whatever'. Now are the authorities going to arrest you for stealing in game? I doubt it. The point is, however that if this did get raised in a jurisdiction, they would have the right because other forms of digital theft have been tested in US courts. If CCP wants to specifically permit this in-game, the shouldn't be so sloppy as to prohibit in their EULA or their TOS. Even if this guy had only contravened paragraph 1 and paragraph 10, he should be subject to some type of action by CCP, even marginally punative. However with Paragraph 7 thrown in I thought I had a chance to seek help from CCP for my corp members. When I received a response, it read in part: I'm afraid both corp theft, and scamming is allowed in EVE, as long as no bug or exploit is used. I didn't quite know if this was simply first line petition support trying to close another ticket or what. I then noticed that this scammer, cleared his permissions to leave the corp. I reinstated his permissions, and wrote him saying "We support your desire to leave the corp, however must request that you return all Items, ships or mods and ISK to either me, or the original owners prior to leaving. Although the decision to leave the corp resides with you, we cannot allow you to leave until you return what doesn't belong to you. Before people accusing me of doing some exploiting of my own, my actions were not malicious, and I left the decision to leave in the hands of the scammer, except that I was not allowing him to be free to leave with the spoils of his scam which hurt other members of the corp. Within a day I received a mail from EVE system stating: You are here by offically warned for keeping a player in your corp by adding roles to him to reset the 24 hour leave timer. This is not acceptable and considered an exploit. Interesting fact: CCP aren't subject to US law. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Nighlighted Granted I don't see with whats wrong with keeping him in the corp until he returns the stolen assets, but it seems a GM didn't like it. Very simple: it is not allowed to keep a player in a corporation against his will to avoid a lot of grief tactics that this kind of action can allow. For example you can freely attack a member of your corporation, so as long as the player is kept in the corp he is a free target. It is possible to see the current location of a member of a corporation, so again keeping a player in a corporation against his will make him an easy target. A vengeful CEO could rise taxaction every time he notice the player is doing activities that will generate taxable revenue. It is possible to look the content of a player hangar if the corp has a hangar in the same station. And so on.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:27:00 - [54] Originally by: Eventy Originally by: JonnyWarhawk Waste of my time, everyone else's and internet space. Please remove yourself from the forums. JonnyWarhawk, I welcome you to express your right NOT to read this thread, and to move along. Others have posted intelligent comments here and thoughtful, not mindless comments are appreciated (even one's I don't necessarily agree with). I would like to keep him in my corp until he returns what isn't his. If he can abuse my members as he has, I should be able to deny him his right to leave until he returns what wasn't his. Ever seen the sign they put on a military base? By entering here, you consent to be searched. If you do not consent, do not enter.. Unfortunately, he hasn't broken the rules and you have broken the rules. The instant you gave him hangar access, you made him co-owner of everything in that hanger. Like a joint bank account, yes? Imagine your GF dumped you and cleaned out your joint account. Lame? Yes! Illegal? No! Keeping her locked up in the cellar till she tells you where the money is? 20 years in a PMITA prison! See how that works? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:33:00 - [55] Consider this. As CEO you have complete control over who has access to your corp hangers. When you place items in corp hangers, unless you click the 'do not show me this again' check box, you are warned that you are placing items into a non private hanger and may not be able to recover them. The rules of the game are quite clear in that subterfuge is permissable along with corp theft. So the above can be summarised -: Every corp member is cautioned that by putting any of their assets into a corp hanger, they maybe non-recoverable. As underhand as it is, yourself and your members did this and paid the price - but were warned and well aware of the rules beforehand. As pointed out, the items of EvE have no RL value, they are simply very pretty 0's and 1's. Posting comments of real life illegality shows both your misunderstanding of law and a desperate plea that by the previous responses has fallen on deaf ears. Theft in this game is no more illegal than a victim of pvp trying to sue his attacker on charges of assault and murder....
tla gnillortmurof	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:47:00 - [56] Originally by: Eventy I came across paragraph 7 of the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE which prohibits players from violating any local, state, national or international laws or regulations. This has to be a mistake, I thought. Theft, which is almost universally prohibited, is permitted in game. So is murder.
Ralle030583 Gallente Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:52:00 - [57] Originally by: tla gnillortmurof Originally by: Eventy I came across paragraph 7 of the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE which prohibits players from violating any local, state, national or international laws or regulations. This has to be a mistake, I thought. Theft, which is almost universally prohibited, is permitted in game. So is murder. this post win You need a free Killboard? check: http:\\www.eve-kill.net Originally by: CCP Sharkbait i have untrashed this bug report and i will take car
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:55:00 - [58] Originally by: tla gnillortmurof Originally by: Eventy I came across paragraph 7 of the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE which prohibits players from violating any local, state, national or international laws or regulations. This has to be a mistake, I thought. Theft, which is almost universally prohibited, is permitted in game. So is murder. Point is it is possible to commit out of game crimes through the medium of Eve Online. If you conspire to commit RL murder through evemail then CCP can boot you out as well as you getting locked up for it. This is what paragraph 7 covers as I understand it. There has been at least one person arrested for crimes partly committed in this way. ----- I'll be in my pod
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.04 10:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Akita T 2. Remove the whole "must not have roles older as 24h" thing. Allow instant leaving from a corp. There's no other good reason to have that "feature" unless you plan to force members to stay in the corp. Name one good reason, I can't think of any. As I see it it a single reason to exist and it is to give a corp 24 hour to punish a corp theft without CONCORD retaliation and with the support of the in game functions I have mentioned above. If the theft is in low sec/0.0 it give the corp a short timeframe where they know where the thief is and a small chance of getting him while he is leaving with the loot if they act fast. Similarly it gives the corp the possibility to check if someone leaving has stolen items or isk while all the functions are in place. After he has left the corp some data is lost/inaccessible. So I think that the 24 hours limit is useful, but extending it against the will of the player is an exploit.
Liliane Woodhead Intergalactic Charwomen	Posted - 2007.09.04 11:06:00 - [60] muahahaha, best whine since a long time ago

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