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PVP Tournament 2008 - Ideas for Realism

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Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.10 12:34:00 - [1] Like most people, I love the tournament and always look forward to it. However, we all know that it does not reflect true PVP in Eve due to two main reasons - no warp outs and no need for scramblers. As there is no need for a scrambler it frees up an extra mid-slot for....Remote Sensor Dampeners. So most fights are about who can dampen the other team most effectively. Hence why we see teams of caracals which you'd really never see in real PVP. I'm hoping the Tournament team will give some real thought to the following ideas and I also hope more players will put forward their ideas. We all know that most PVP happens around jumpgates. I envision an arena with a jumpgate at its center with an arena with a radius of 150km from the gate. One team camps the gate and one team jumps in. Before the match who camps and who jumps is decided by some kind of random draw. As in real PVP (which would have eyes on each side of a gate) each team knows the make-up of the other side (30 seconds before the fight). Use the same scoring system but add a bonus of 10 points per ship destroyed. And allow warp-outs. By allowing warp-outs and adding a bonus for each ship destroyed will mean it's in each team's best interest to hold down the opposing team. And this of course means preventing warp-outs and use of warp scramblers/disruptors (wcs are disallowed). Also increase the amount of ship points a team can use so we see more multiple battleship teams with multiple heavy and light support but still limiting a team to 10 ships. We'd see a realistic arena with realistic ship setups, less dampening, more ships exploding quickly and a realistic fight where a team upon seeing themselves getting pwned tries to warp out to save their points while the other team tries to hold them down. Thoughts, ideas, flames and discussion needed.
Tessen	Posted - 2007.09.10 12:45:00 - [2] Nice idea but... This is a championship not an open space enconter. Gladiators in the arena had never fought as soldiers did on battlefields.
Ifni Applied Eugenics	Posted - 2007.09.10 12:49:00 - [3] We did discuss having a scenario where by one team sets up on a gate, and the second team jumps into them, meaning that the ships area spread around across a 30km sphere. The trouble with it is that the mechanics that allow the camera ships to show the fight is simple locking mechanics. If you allow one team to jump in, you have to be able to lock them as the fight begins. This also applies to allowing warp outs, since how do the cameras maintain a lock on the ships if they are allowed to warp around the grid? You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.09.10 13:00:00 - [4] Originally by: Ifni This also applies to allowing warp outs, since how do the cameras maintain a lock on the ships if they are allowed to warp around the grid? Indeed. I've thought it many times over the time of all the tournaments, that it would be much more realistic and fun if warping was allowed. Say for example the arena being 400x400x400 with various beacons around that you can warp to. Or even with the current arena, that there is no countdown: fighting starts right away when ships have warped in (this would give no time to effectively assign team members to dampen specific targets) But as long as the cameramen can't lock ships that are warping it's a no-go. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Ohne Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.10 13:10:00 - [5] I think the tournament doesnt necessarily have to emulate a real pvp situation. The tournament is almost perfected were it is now and hopefully with RSD¦s nerfed a bit, we should see alot more intresting fights.
Kodiak31415 An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.10 13:38:00 - [6] There already is a 'real' tournament. It's called tranquility. _______________________________ Pleese exucse any seplling erorr's in tihs psot
codex09 Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.10 13:59:00 - [7] Although it would be iteresting to see how this sort of thing would work I don't think it would work for several reasons: 1). Having ships warping in and out would make for fights that could possibly end up being able to go for a lot more than 30 minutes, and even though it would be an incentive for the camping team to hold them down I don't think it would add very much value to the tourney for either of the teams or the people watching. 2).Having a team jump in would give one side an advantage wouldn't it? I mean I think I would rather be the camping team than the jumping team cause as the camping team you can at least sort of get your selves ready for the other team. I would like to see the arena a little bigger and maybe have 12 man teams and a few changes to the points system but the jumping in thing just leaves to much to possibility. Maybe they could have a realism type tourney at a different time for those alliances that would be interested in doing it that way.
QwaarJet Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.10 14:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Tessen Nice idea but... This is a championship not an open space enconter. Gladiators in the arena had never fought as soldiers did on battlefields. This. I seem to keep repeating this over and over, but the tournament SHOULD NOT be like normal PvP on tranq. Like Tessen perfectly put it, this is Gladiator combat, where the rules are different, and more skillful. Maybe Nova might want to think about that before blindly moving forward with the "real pvp" idea.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.09.10 14:17:00 - [9] Originally by: QwaarJet Originally by: Tessen Gladiators in the arena had never fought as soldiers did on battlefields. this is Gladiator combat, where the rules are different, and more skillful. Sorry for my ignorance, but as I recall it, gladiators weren't allowed to start the match way up in the stands with a bow to just snipe the enemy. Which tbfh is what we're seeing with sensor dampeners in the current arena(s). Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.10 14:36:00 - [10] I think the answer to fixing the sensor damp question in the arena is to shrink the radius fighting can occur in, as well as possibly limit the warp in range to 30 or 50km max. Thought is, with the closer you have to be to your opponents with the damps, the more dangerous it is, discouraging both its use and ECM while still allowing it and making it a viable tool to break turtle tanks. Eve Golden Rules

QwaarJet Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.10 14:42:00 - [11] Originally by: dalman Originally by: QwaarJet Originally by: Tessen Gladiators in the arena had never fought as soldiers did on battlefields. this is Gladiator combat, where the rules are different, and more skillful. Sorry for my ignorance, but as I recall it, gladiators weren't allowed to start the match way up in the stands with a bow to just snipe the enemy. Which tbfh is what we're seeing with sensor dampeners in the current arena(s). I agree, damps caused problems, along with the large arena. The rules need tweaking for the enxt tournament, but not completely overhauled. Smaller arena, with a limit on damps/ECM etc.
Donathan Slade Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.10 14:47:00 - [12] I kinda thought of this tournament as a Battletech Solaris 7 Championship. The "championship" or Solaris matches never simulate real fights. So, yeah, but you also give the "camping" team the turtle tanking bonus of already being together. Which hinders the ability of a "starting even" championship. The only way to let this happen would be to allow cloakers to cloak, but then again, that destroys the camera aspect and well, no, I liked watching the tournament. Even if I couldn't watch it all or at all on fridays in the US because I work during the day. :)
Fengbao Jiuyue	Posted - 2007.09.11 03:59:00 - [13] Edited by: Fengbao Jiuyue on 11/09/2007 04:01:36 Edited by: Fengbao Jiuyue on 11/09/2007 04:00:57 I know you guys are talking different rule-sets but I think the current rules worked quite well. With new ships on the way I would like to see a tourney with the same rules but maybe some tweaks to the point system to allow more ship types in. What I would suggest for improvement would be some kind of jove stasis-tower a hundred times as as stong as normal ones to ensure that no one can move before the fight. Throw in a disruptor-mechanism on the towers to ensure that no one can lock before go. There seems to have also been delays in bringing people in to the arena so I would suggest creating tournament grounds in jove space with a station with only fittings and repair services. Bring players over to this station half an hour before the match and let them wait in station. There seems to already be some mechanism in-game to prevent you from quickly leaving station if this can be prolonged then participants would stay put in station until the match. If you would allow players to bring two, three ships in with fittings in cargohold then spying with locator agents and whatnot could be nullified as players can get their tourney gear together right before match. If eve- voice is used by both gms and players then maybe we could also avoid miscommunication due to typing in local like we saw in this tournament.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.11 05:10:00 - [14] Make the arena 350km radius with various warpable objects spread around the arena, and some way for eve TV to hold lock our auto-relock after every warp. That will force people to tackle, while still leaving all the ships in the arena the whole time.
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.09.11 05:38:00 - [15] I agree with the above position that I don't think the tourney really does have to match real pvp, I found the tourney setups much more creative than real pvp. if it were real pvp we'd see all Gallente Boats. I see enough of that in game, I'd rather see the spectacle of Armor Tanking Ravens. But I found it odd that there was no way to directly counter the mass damping going on, with a BS Setup. I think it was derek that tried lots of Sensor boosters with Remote Sensor Boosting, and they couldn't even get the range to blow up a few frigs. And they seemed to be all out spec'd on just getting the range to shoot. Maybe I'm wrong about the setup, but that's what I thought they tried to do. So I was alittle disheartened that I couldn't really see a BS shoot at long range pretty much the whole tourney.
Cass Daystar	Posted - 2007.09.11 12:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Ifni We did discuss having a scenario where by one team sets up on a gate, and the second team jumps into them, meaning that the ships area spread around across a 30km sphere. The trouble with it is that the mechanics that allow the camera ships to show the fight is simple locking mechanics. If you allow one team to jump in, you have to be able to lock them as the fight begins. This also applies to allowing warp outs, since how do the cameras maintain a lock on the ships if they are allowed to warp around the grid? Can't they just make the contestant's ships the camera ships? I mean, if you can put cameras on ships piloted by GMs, then can't you just steal the camera view of each pilot? Something like a remote, but independent view? Have GMs simply select the ship they want for a point-of-view and they can independently view the battle from that ship's perspective. You wouldn't limit the player's ability to view the game - as their view would be completely client-dependent. But there should be a way to use the player's own ships as the point-of-view for the contest. You could have your own ships there for an outside perspective, but, unless there is some major limitation on the way that data is sent to each client, then I can't see why they couldn't use the player's ships as an anchor point for camera views.
Razor Jaxx Khumatari Holdings	Posted - 2007.09.11 13:51:00 - [17] How about the following changes : - allow warp out - warping out is final (cannot warp back in, solves camera issues) - bonus per ship destroyed equal to ship points' value - sizable extra bonus for complete wipe-out of the opposing team - smaller extra bonus for holding the field (no opposition ships alive within the arena at the end of match / regulation time) - smaller arena (harder to evade tackling, ecm/damp importance reduced) Allowing warp out puts the incentive on teams to tackle the opposition to score extra points, especially considering the wipe-out bonus. The 'holding the field' bonus puts the incentive on teams to stay and fight the match out. However, while this might work in group matches, it has no bearing in elimination rounds, where teams will fight it out anyway.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.11 14:58:00 - [18] the format I would like to see is a variation on the current. First, make the arena bigger or of an unlimited size, but warp outs result in Heal 0. This is to allow for the Minmatar ship style fighting to be viable. Have a beacon at the centre of the arena to which all warp to and as soon as they land its game on. None of this looking at each other for ages stuff. Make FCs think on their feet Yes this would mean that cameras would have to be fit to auto target (everyone is hostile to the camera), and more difficultly, lock whilst cloaked (or somehow invisible) Make sure the beacons you gather at before the match are out of scan range of each other. Basically, anything that makes individual skill as important (if not more so) as ôfocus fire, F1, F2, F3àö is better in my book. As for damps, theyÆre counters to preferred tactics, not uncounterable. So I donÆt really see the problem with them. -------------------------------------------- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=417590Now recruiting[/url
Avalira Caldari Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.09.11 16:09:00 - [19] - Totalhelldeath should only happen if you kill all the opposing team members AND not lose a single ship on your side. Getting a totalhelldeath will really show that you outclassed the other team rather than simply winning. - Allow warping out but not warping back in. Whether it heals to 0 or not is not the issue. The thing is to get people to try to keep the opposing team within the arena to be able to get a totalhelldeath (since a ship warping out does not count as a kill). - Have teams warp in and start fighting immidiatly. This will show who can react to a situation faster and really show tactical skills over SP or pre-determined setups. Yes it can be a slight problem for cameramen, but a ship with insta-lock should help. Give the commentators ships to watch the match too so they can see what's going on without having to ask the camera to "do this do that". They can then quickly see who's got what by looking at the overview untill the cameramen has locked everything. Perhaps time to fix the auto-targeting modules .
JediLover MASS	Posted - 2007.09.11 21:52:00 - [20] Edited by: JediLover on 11/09/2007 21:53:33 Realism... In this one there wasnt realism but some randomness, even too little options, my head never started to hurt before in pub in london after first weekend - well the next morning. Arena: 3 normal systems 200pts rest same carrier/dread 83pts mom 150pts titan 180pts Arena: A -gateAB- B -gateBC- C jump distance from a-b doable with all with level 4 jump skills but from a-c not without a carrier. other team start from system a other in system c, the first one to shoot the battlestation in B and take the flag and enter the gate in starting system A or C will be declared winner. flag undestructible and always in wrecks. Rules same as in TQ. At least it would be more of a alliance tournament. And for the TV more cameras, some tracking the team rest around gates. Time period 1 month 4 weekends, several arenas help from community to GM:s Prices: All that u have killed during the tournament mods and ships ( not including the ones u looted ) so basically all that got destroyed and you can keep the system for urself with sov 4 and its in jove space ( opening of jove space through tournament would fit the heroes that take part ) Yours, JediLover, Leader of SA tournie team in caldari II Captain of Mass tournie Team in Alliance IV Res. Ylil. / Senior Programmer Best eve player ever and you all little girls not including Dalman, TWD and Darpz

Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.11 22:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Tessen Nice idea but... This is a championship not an open space enconter. Gladiators in the arena had never fought as soldiers did on battlefields. I agree with this. The Tourney still has a lot of room for improvement to help stop the first-lock-first-death thing, but it shouldn't be moving to emulate real combat. The whole fun of the Tourney is that it's like a sport- abstract, unusual, and an indirect way for experienced PvP pilots to need to apply their skills. There is already plenty of "real" combat on Tranquillity. The Tournament should be something different- fair, fun, competitive, but different. ------ Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts!
Arushia Nova Labs Empire Research	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:33:00 - [22] I think frigate-class ships in general cost too few points to bring, as you saw jammer frigates incapacitaing battleships for a measly 3 points, and stealth bombers dishing out BC-class damage for a mere 6 points. And I'm still upset I couldn't bring a Covetor just for ****s and giggles.
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Make the arena 350km radius with various warpable objects spread around the arena, and some way for eve TV to hold lock our auto-relock after every warp. That will force people to tackle, while still leaving all the ships in the arena the whole time. ohgawd... i'm agreeing with Shamis... There has to be ways to break the jam/damp combo.. everyone is complaining how damps are overpowered, but realistically they have a much more limited use ingame due to situations being much less fix.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) Elcyion Lacar


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