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Mishi Khan	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:43:00 - [1] Eve has successfully reached the limit of our current technologies that can or will be utilized by CCP at the price point they can afford to continue to beef up power and capability. This game does not make enough profit in a year to allow them to move into what would be the next level of hardware and capability needed, since it would require millions in infrastructure upgrades, etc. Also...CCP will not or cannot make changes to their use of Python, which is a dynamic coding system for sake of ease and speedànot quite ability or power. While a powerful and versatile language, it has MANY problems due to it being a "dynamic" code. Seems CCP opted for Python because its easier for their coders (during initial coding, but the dynamic typing kills you on capability, leaks and trying to solve issues after being launched), AND...it is free...which seems to fit right into CCP's price point. Also, these developers, while making a wonderful game, can still be considered to be "amateurs" at what they do, meaning, they are more "gamers" then "coders", etc. Again...we see the lacking of funds to be able to move to the next level of qualified and experienced personnel needed, along with the hardware and software changes. Why say all this? Well, whether its their ability, lack of the knowledge levels needed to change language, lack of funds, etc., it has definitely come to a point in proficient and enjoyable game-play within Eve to consider "sharding" as a means to create a better game experience. When you realize that with the equipment, software, databases, etc., available to CCP at the price point they can afford, Eve cannot and will not get "better" in regards to lag, crashes, etc. If this were a "WoW" kinda experience where there is no "Loss" so to speak, where you just respawn, lose nothing and jump back into a meaningless battle, then the lag issues would be an almost non-issue. Add to this the lackluster and almost belligerent way nothing is being done about reimbursement for obvious issues caused by faulty hardware, software or game mechanics...we now have a game experience that is simply becoming an exercise in futility and providing various nerds their 15 min of fame via EveTV and the like. Figure it out....either shard or divisional-ize the game. It's getting to the point where CCP simply screwing your customer base over for some nerdish ranking or notoriety in some magazine or web site (Oooo....we had 35k on at the same time...are you excited yet?!?!). Is the momentary delight and giddy feelings one gets from bragging about playing in a non-sharded game experience still worth it? Sorry to sound mean spirited, but its getting to be like watching a monkey try and stick square pegs in round holes a bit.
chrisreeves Gallente Asgard Protectorate Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:02:00 - [2] Edited by: chrisreeves on 12/09/2007 00:01:46 no. 1st. lock please. ----------------- Originally by: kieron The Ibis was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
General Killah Unknown Shoe Corp. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:08:00 - [3] Edited by: General Killah on 12/09/2007 00:10:15 Think he has a point...no need to troll what is obviously rhetorical. Originally by: chrisreeves Edited by: chrisreeves on 12/09/2007 00:01:46 no. 1st. lock please. --------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
chrisreeves Gallente Asgard Protectorate Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:10:00 - [4] I was "power replying" to the thread title. ----------------- Originally by: kieron The Ibis was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
General Killah Unknown Shoe Corp. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:11:00 - [5] Gotta love forum nerds. They feel so...accompished!
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:18:00 - [6] No. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
Avaricia The Accursed	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:33:00 - [7] No. It wasn't time last week, nor the week before that, nor the approximate 208 previous weeks this stupid question has been asked.
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:38:00 - [8] No, also please be sure to incinerate yourself in a large combustion reaction.
DirtMigirt	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:51:00 - [9] can you even back up any of your claims about what ccp can't/wont do? the OP sounds to me like hes assuming pretty much every reason he put forward for sharding. even if all that is true the single server approach is one of the things that makes eve unique, and frankly being unique is too rare a quality in a game these days. anyone with money can make a game with expensive servers and engines.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.12 01:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Avaricia No. It wasn't time last week, nor the week before that, nor the approximate 208 previous weeks this stupid question has been asked. quoted for effect. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Sabe Gallente Red Horizon Inc Red Horizon	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:18:00 - [11] $15 per month, 30,0000 daily players (average) $5,450,000 annual income (MINIMUM, thats based on a daily average of players, I imagine its more) 50 employee's making $50,000 per year each... $2.5m leaves $3m a year for hardware upgrades and/or profit for the greedy owners... who says they cannot afford some serious hardware? I wont even bother line-item-vetoing the rest of OP's post ----- TROLL One mans "flame" is another mans "constructive criticism".
Mishi Khan	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Mishi Khan on 12/09/2007 02:25:31 Hehe....trolls out in force today. Everything I said is simply one issue that keeps CCP from moving forward and solving problems...it is not the only answer, just one. I chat regularly with variuos people in the know and outside simply reducing killboard stats for the CS mentality crowd, there is no real negative side. It is truly one answer that would allow growth, would immediately double or more the capability of the existing infrastructure and cause very little migration from the game, outside the hardcore nerd crowd probably. Like i said...its a very valid and very acceptable means to an end regarding the lag and other like problems that face us all in this game. And remember...it's just a game...not a life. AND...there is ALOT more overhead then you mentioned in that quaint little sumation of CCP's income. I fear they have less than 1 million a year to spend on infrastructure, software, upgrades, etc. and if you ask any other MMOG designer...it is one of the BIGGEST reasons they shard. Lets be intelligent here...not just emotional divits.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:35:00 - [13] F.O.R.S.-I is already FrequentlyOffered********Suggestion.1 _ EVE GOLDEN RULES \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Mishi Khan	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:45:00 - [14] Well, outside the adult whining, why is it a bad suggestion? The pros far outweigh the negatives on this issue, unless it personally effects the player for some reason, like, if one is a killboard monger or something.... Originally by: Akita T F.O.R.S.-I is already FrequentlyOffered********Suggestion.1
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:46:00 - [15] Edited by: Sarah McTeef on 12/09/2007 02:46:43 Originally by: Mishi Khan Well, outside the adult whining, why is it a bad suggestion? The pros far outweigh the negatives on this issue, unless it personally effects the player for some reason, like, if one is a killboard monger or something.... I'll make it simple. This is Eve. Eve has no shards. Having shards would make this !Eve. Clear? Edit: ! means not for people that only speak english and not computer geek.
Arcadia1701 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:50:00 - [16] Technology moves foward as the eve population grows. On a dev blog was them hinting at replaceing every server soon again, with even more kick ass gear. With quad core + hardwar out now with ram hitting the GHZ level , the costant server side progarmming and structure improvements, i dont see any reason to shard anything ever. My sig> Post with your main, or don't post at all.
Mishi Khan	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:10:00 - [17] Again....why not? You're simply talking about some nerdish "qualification" or achievement that one can "tout" to like minded buddies. The game itself is "Eve," not simply the fact they don't shard. Not sharding was simply one of the directions that CCP wished to follow if possible...not some holy mantra. I haven't heard one intelligent reason why not to shard yet...kinda funny. Eve is already showing definite, serious issues in not being able to keep up with population growth. As a matter of fact, the devs have said that the limitations of the infrastructure is one definite reasons there isnt more population growth in this game, one that they hope to someday be able to fix. I never said there isn't equipment or solutions out there that would definitely make a non-sharded game for 100K+ players (accounts i should say) possible, just that CCP cannot afford to move to those solutions at this time. 100K player base vs. 6 million in WoW...should tell you something. And what's with all the malicious sounding responses...its just a game mates. Think some of you are getting religious about a game. I'm not dissing people's families or anything.
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:19:00 - [18] its already sharded ever hear of eve china
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:24:00 - [19] Ok, idiots: EVE is not one server. EVE is a cluster of many servers. Multiple clusters will not solve lag issues, that are related to many players being on the same individual server at any one time. CCP will not shard the server because it will hurt the experience of the game, seriously hurt the PvP aspect, and will not actually do a damn thing to address underlying issues related to how individual processing of star systems is managed. Sharding solves less then nothing.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:40:00 - [20] Edited by: Akita T on 12/09/2007 03:42:04 EDIT: What James Duar said (damn simultaneous threads open) Originally by: Mishi Khan Well, outside the adult whining, why is it a bad suggestion? The pros far outweigh the negatives on this issue Because there is no "pro" side. EVE is already "sharded" into nodes, which run from one to several systems. The problem is when too many people gather on a single node (or grid), while we still have no solution to running a single system (or grid) on multiple nodes. By breaking down the cluster you are only delaying the inevitable. The solution (as, thanks <InsertDeityNameHere>) the CCP devs already have in mind and are working on is to increase the capacity of each individual node, and hopefully be able (eventually) to "share" a system or even a grid on multiple nodes. _ EVE GOLDEN RULES \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Mishi Khan	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:47:00 - [21] Edited by: Mishi Khan on 12/09/2007 03:49:09 So...you say idiots to what...make yourself feel better? Try it without the dissing...less nerdy and more approachable. And I dont think you understand what sharding is mate. Eve China as the other guy said IS a shard...so all these arguments are kinda mute. Eve already is sharded. You are very wrong about the number of people playing not being responsible for much of the lag/issues. It's al about server load. All MMOGs are basiclly just databases and disply code instructing the game to calculate and display, not much more. Shard even one time and you cut your database and system pulls in about half to 1/3rd. Lets move past the "Eve Religion" a bit and just have fun. Save the heavy emotions and "passion" for things that really matter in life, imho. Originally by: James Duar Ok, idiots: EVE is not one server. EVE is a cluster of many servers. Multiple clusters will not solve lag issues, that are related to many players being on the same individual server at any one time. CCP will not shard the server because it will hurt the experience of the game, seriously hurt the PvP aspect, and will not actually do a damn thing to address underlying issues related to how individual processing of star systems is managed. Sharding solves less then nothing.
TomParad0x Caldari Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.12 04:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Mishi Khan Edited by: Mishi Khan on 12/09/2007 03:49:09 So...you say idiots to what...make yourself feel better? Try it without the dissing...less nerdy and more approachable. And I dont think you understand what sharding is mate. Eve China as the other guy said IS a shard...so all these arguments are kinda mute. Eve already is sharded. You are very wrong about the number of people playing not being responsible for much of the lag/issues. It's al about server load. All MMOGs are basiclly just databases and disply code instructing the game to calculate and display, not much more. Shard even one time and you cut your database and system pulls in about half to 1/3rd. Lets move past the "Eve Religion" a bit and just have fun. Save the heavy emotions and "passion" for things that really matter in life, imho. For one, EVE is EVE because it has 35k people on one server, the more people, the better the game play. The only spots that are really lagy are the spots in forge and around it. What CCP needs to do is get the load spread out to different systems, people need a reason to go there or else they all cluster up in jita / the citadel / etc and lag them down. I am out in 0.0, I dont have any lag, I had none in gallente space. Also, what would be the point of doing this? Do you plan on having them just split the nodes / servers they have up now into different clusters running different EVE servers? (IE: TQ / TQ2 / whatever). Would they be using the same database? If so, what is the point? You would still have ~35,000 people on the same amount of hardware, and if they are running off the same database, then we arent solving a thing. It seems to me it would be quite costly to have to buy new hardware to actually implement this. I would rather them spend that money on increasing the capacity of the current nodes than buying new clusters / nodes to run new "shards". Also, you appear to look down upon people coming to you with hostile words (Idiot / etc), yet you use "nerdy" in a sense that its something bad, something to be looked down upon - is there something wrong with some one being a nerd? Do you have a personal issue with nerds? If this is the case, you need to stop being a hypocrite and telling people to be less "dissing", because I feel your use of nerdy in most of your writing is "dissing" anyone who may be a nerd.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.12 04:23:00 - [23] Wait for Infiniband/RDMA before you pass this verdict. Also EVE will never be sharded because the EVE devs are way too attached to the concept of a single-shard MMO, and I agree with them, because the political arena is what makes this game fun. You can just follow the politics for months and take extended breaks from the game. If you sharded the server, you would destroy that dynamic.
Dirty Worm MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.09.12 04:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Mishi Khan Again....why not? You're simply talking about some nerdish "qualification" or achievement that one can "tout" to like minded buddies. The game itself is "Eve," not simply the fact they don't shard. Not sharding was simply one of the directions that CCP wished to follow if possible...not some holy mantra. I haven't heard one intelligent reason why not to shard yet...kinda funny. Blah...blah...blah...And what's with all the malicious sounding responses...its just a game mates. Think some of you are getting religious about a game. I'm not dissing people's families or anything. Originally by: Mishi Khan Well, outside the adult whining, why is it a bad suggestion? The pros far outweigh the negatives on this issue, unless it personally effects the player for some reason, like, if one is a killboard monger or something..... Originally by: Mishi Khan Edited by: Mishi Khan on 12/09/2007 03:49:09 So...you say idiots to what...make yourself feel better? Try it without the dissing...less nerdy and more approachable. Lets move past the "Eve Religion" a bit and just have fun. Save the heavy emotions and "passion" for things that really matter in life, imho. Originally by: Mishi Khan Edited by: Mishi Khan on 12/09/2007 02:25:31 Hehe....trolls out in force today. Lets be intelligent here...not just emotional divits. Anyone else notice a pattern here? Pot calling the kettle....what color was that? Oh yeah, BLACK.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.12 05:31:00 - [25] I always love when people bust out with the "facts". Or the Truthiness. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.12 06:05:00 - [26] Edited by: James Duar on 12/09/2007 06:06:48 Originally by: Mishi Khan Edited by: Mishi Khan on 12/09/2007 03:49:09 So...you say idiots to what...make yourself feel better? Try it without the dissing...less nerdy and more approachable. And I dont think you understand what sharding is mate. Eve China as the other guy said IS a shard...so all these arguments are kinda mute. Eve already is sharded. You are very wrong about the number of people playing not being responsible for much of the lag/issues. It's al about server load. All MMOGs are basiclly just databases and disply code instructing the game to calculate and display, not much more. Shard even one time and you cut your database and system pulls in about half to 1/3rd. Lets move past the "Eve Religion" a bit and just have fun. Save the heavy emotions and "passion" for things that really matter in life, imho. I say "idiots" because not only does this idea come up once a week, but in this case the justification for it (as evidenced by your post right here) is based on such a spectacularly flawed understanding of how the EVE cluster works, and the sources of lag within it. In fact, the question I find myself asking is do you play the game at all? Because your understanding of lag in EVE defies even basic observations one might make during gameplay. At least read one of the dev blogs on the structure of Tranquility before you start talking about it.
Barthezz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.12 07:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Sabe $15 per month, 30,0000 daily players (average) $5,450,000 annual income (MINIMUM, thats based on a daily average of players, I imagine its more) 50 employee's making $50,000 per year each... $2.5m leaves $3m a year for hardware upgrades and/or profit for the greedy owners... who says they cannot afford some serious hardware? I wont even bother line-item-vetoing the rest of OP's post Your so far off the actual amounts in both the amount of ccp employee's and their yearly income. Not that it matters, but ccp said themselves they have around 200k subscribers and I think they have at least 100 employee's. Anyways I dont think the OP has any clue (at all) how the internal structure of eve works. Essentially eve is full of 'shards', each system runs on their own 'shard'. Well lets for the fun call it a node You would still get large alliances fighting other large alliances on smaller servers (lets say you divide the game in 4 'shards' this wouldnt mean the fight in BGK would suddenly be 700 / 4, it would still be at 700 the rest of the space would just be a lot more empty). You dont solve any issues the game has with performance as the OP seems to forget the safety in numbers theory. 1000 people in jita has no effect on 1000 people in bgk. And no matter how you change the servers, at some point that will happen even on smaller servers. I mean, in dark age of camelot (Great game btw) we had like 1500-2000 people online during peak hours, yet during a relic raid we had over 400 people in the same zone. So unless you want to go 'that' low (2000 per 'shard') then no it wouldnt help the game one bit.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:25:00 - [28] Originally by: James Duar I say "idiots" because not only does this idea come up once a week, but in this case the justification for it (as evidenced by your post right here) is based on such a spectacularly flawed understanding of how the EVE cluster works, and the sources of lag within it. In fact, the question I find myself asking is do you play the game at all? Because your understanding of lag in EVE defies even basic observations one might make during gameplay. At least read one of the dev blogs on the structure of Tranquility before you start talking about it. Exactly. Basically, the answer is NO. Sharding wouldn't solve lag, and it sure as hell would destroy a good part of EvE's charm.
Calidor Droks Caldari No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:36:00 - [29] The new GFX engine will solve most of the lag issues, which btw are mostly client side not server side. Moving the gfx proccesses from our CPU to our GPU. Sharding Eve to multiple universes, which I think is what people are asking for is the most damaging thing CCP could ever do to our beloved Eve.
Chinese Chick	Posted - 2007.09.12 12:19:00 - [30] Sharded or not, EVE has much more to gameplay than WoW can ever have. EVE is not about how many people u can stick into 1 system, but about what a community as a whole can do with minimal intervention of gamemasters. Alliance Politics and the economy in EVE (for instance) are purely and solely run by the people that actively play the game. Lag can be a problem, but lag was much worse before and it will get better over time. Wait and see... or go to WoW ;)
Ol' Delsai Caldari Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.12 12:36:00 - [31] The question of sharding Eve cannot be looked at only by the "technical" point of view. What makes Eve a Big game, is, most of all, it's history, it's community (one can say its inhabitants), and it's politics.... all of this has been brought to the the level we know by the "One-shard" technical infrastructure Yes, you're certainly right, from a technical point of view it may be more reasonable to have multiple shards for smoothing things a little, but ... then you'll lose all the essence of Eve, all of it soul and transform it from it's Virtual universe status to just another MMORPG Asking to shard Eve for technical reason is exactly the same question as asking to cut a country, or a city in parts because there is traffic jam everyday in the morning ... That's not an option.

CCP Atropos	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:28:00 - [32] EVE is and always will be one 'shard'. That shard is made up from many servers each running the separate systems. So depending on your definition it's either sharded already or not at all. The layout of the server will not change, only the hardware it is running on will adapt over time to better cope with the load. We're constantly working on improving the scalability of the game, and whilst we're pushing the boundaries for a single server community, the game will always remain as a single server.

Ming Zhan Alt Corp	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Mishi Khan Also...CCP will not or cannot make changes to their use of Python, which is a dynamic coding system for sake of ease and speedànot quite ability or power. While a powerful and versatile language, it has MANY problems due to it being a "dynamic" code. Seems CCP opted for Python because its easier for their coders (during initial coding, but the dynamic typing kills you on capability, leaks and trying to solve issues after being launched), AND...it is free...which seems to fit right into CCP's price point. A++++++ troll, will take the bait again. For the non-programmers: OP is wrong just subtly enough to sound plausible. Python has very specific, glaring flaws. He missed them by a mile, of course. Quote: Also, these developers, while making a wonderful game, can still be considered to be "amateurs" at what they do, meaning, they are more "gamers" then "coders", etc. Again...we see the lacking of funds to be able to move to the next level of qualified and experienced personnel needed, along with the hardware and software changes. Score! Judging by the kind of ***ups CCP continually makes, they are* employing 50k/year programmers. Can you even hire decent burger flippers at that price in an expensive place like Iceland?
Sevarus James Minmatar Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:06:00 - [34] Another way to look at it: By keeping EVE "one world" i.e. no multiple instances, CCP has created a social experiment in a milieu that only 2nd life has attempted to tackle. You do NOT understand the intricate complexities of EVE's markets, politics, or the interdependencies between 0.0 and empire. You shard this environment, ALL of these unique and amazing qualities die. Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.15 17:45:00 - [35] Originally by: CCP Atropos EVE is and always will be one 'shard'. That shard is made up from many servers each running the separate systems. So depending on your definition it's either sharded already or not at all. The layout of the server will not change, only the hardware it is running on will adapt over time to better cope with the load. We're constantly working on improving the scalability of the game, and whilst we're pushing the boundaries for a single server community, the game will always remain as a single server. <3 Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
mucklavee Minmatar Coruscant	Posted - 2007.09.16 03:19:00 - [36] nothing to do with topic i just wanted to say HI SEVARUS JAMES. now for topic Jesus said if ccp shards eve he will kill all the kittens on the planet, he told me so
Maltar Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.16 11:58:00 - [37] So.... What strikes me besides from the discussion about sharding. That you keep calling everybody imcompatant nerds. While CCP has some of the most talented and devoted people on the eve project. Just the sheer ammount of new releases (expensions) and the fact that they rewritten the graphics engine speaks for itself. While wow with it's how many million subscribers still have the same engine and only 1 real expension. I think the word nerd is verry broad applicable, and does not apply to IT people that only do there job properly.
Maximillian Power Minmatar The Dark Protectorate	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:22:00 - [38] Edited by: Maximillian Power on 17/09/2007 08:22:05 Eve is sharded - just not in the traditional sense. Architecturally, different systems/regions/stations etc can exist on separate nodes. The fact is 500 - 1000 players on a regular basis choose to play on a single shard at a time (jita). Sharding in the traditional sense will not stop this from happening. Good day sir. edit: missing comma
cardGames	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:21:00 - [39] Edited by: cardGames on 17/09/2007 09:26:52 What people need to understand (atleast with jita concerned) is that the server running jita isnt overloaded or atleast shouldnt be... the issue is the ammount of connections to that server. The ammount of bandwith the servers need just isnt possible to get yet.. their to many people using that same amount of bandwith and it gets backed up... thus logging in takes 25mins at prime time...
Maximillian Power Minmatar The Dark Protectorate	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:55:00 - [40] Originally by: cardGames Edited by: cardGames on 17/09/2007 09:26:52 What people need to understand (atleast with jita concerned) is that the server running jita isnt overloaded or atleast shouldnt be... the issue is the ammount of connections to that server. The ammount of bandwith the servers need just isnt possible to get yet.. their to many people using that same amount of bandwith and it gets backed up... thus logging in takes 25mins at prime time... If that were the case every other system and region would also be lagging at prime time which blatantly is not true.
Breal D'nie	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:25:00 - [41] Edited by: Breal D''nie on 17/09/2007 16:36:14 Edited by: Breal D''nie on 17/09/2007 16:26:30 IMO, regardless if EVE should be, will be, won't be, or whatever, single/multiple shards, it would be nearly impossible to impliment successfully. Either you arbitrarily move ppl, and effectivly split the player base, there by destroying wars, alliances, established systems, and possibly even corps. Or you make it so its voluntary to move. meaning that the more independent corps and players would head over to EVE2, such as miners and mission corps. Now, over time perhaps it would even out, but so many ppl log on to fight their war, or defend their systems that until those wars end or the aggressors go away, they aren't going anywhere. so then what happens to the market? Sharding at this point in EVE's life would be detrimental to everything. players would be choked that everything costs more now on EVE1 and that mineral prices and mission loot prices suck on EVE2. The general EVE public would then turn on CCP saying that they ruined the game and that it was the worst decision ever. People would stop playing, and OP is right, that would solve the lag issue...
Jita TradeAlt	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:46:00 - [42] just make a us and a eu shard already. you've proven again and again that you cannot support even a single digit percentage of the online player base in the same system at all. Not only that, but players closer to london get less destroyed in those lag fests simply because of better latency. Either split the servers or do something radical to the way you handle heavy loads such as fleet battles, because having nodes crash whenever trying to engage a respectable sized fleet is a bit of a joke. Anything above 100v100 is unplayable and these days I regularly see 400v400. Potentially anyway. Most crash out before actually engaging.
Tonto Auri	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:00:00 - [43] From time to time, here and there I see many options to reduce client-server network traffic and reduce traffic spikes. For example, whenever You warp to gate, Your client lags. When that gate is camped, client lags much more. When there's fight already, or gate is "smartcamped" by carrier/mothership. But solution is way simple: start sending data when client leaves actual grid and enter warp. Lag spike at that time means absolutely nothing, and even if You expect 20-sec lag from that data packet, You are still in warp and it is not affecting Your life. Why it is not implemented? Dunno. -- Thanks CCP for cu<end of sig>
cardGames	Posted - 2007.09.17 20:19:00 - [44] Quote: If that were the case every other system and region would also be lagging at prime time which blatantly is not true. no, no thats not true at all jita has a huge central population... 1000 poeople in 1 system on just a few servers... Most of the time in 0.0 unless people are fighting theirs not anywhere near that many all in 1 spot all at the same time
solbright altaltaltalt	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:17:00 - [45] Originally by: cardGames Originally by: Maximillian Power If that were the case every other system and region would also be lagging at prime time which blatantly is not true. no, no thats not true at all jita has a huge central population... 1000 poeople in 1 system on just a few servers... Most of the time in 0.0 unless people are fighting theirs not anywhere near that many all in 1 spot all at the same time So, you're saying that the LAN bandwidth at the Jita node is the bottleneck? Lol, I don't think so!
Xilimyth Derlin Gallente OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:52:00 - [46] EVE as a whole doesn't have problems from a single 'shard' except for server maintenance and 'emergency reboots'. Otherwise it stays up most of the time and runs rather well. If you're complaining about Jita, or when 300 v 300 fleet battles erupt in a single system... that's a different story, and you can be sure the developer staff is researching it. (I'm blaming collision code made super complicated by drones ^^)
Maximillian Power Minmatar The Dark Protectorate	Posted - 2007.09.18 07:02:00 - [47] Originally by: cardGames Quote: If that were the case every other system and region would also be lagging at prime time which blatantly is not true. no, no thats not true at all jita has a huge central population... 1000 poeople in 1 system on just a few servers... Most of the time in 0.0 unless people are fighting theirs not anywhere near that many all in 1 spot all at the same time I'm sorry - but you are making huge assumptions here that are completely unfounded. Your statement was that there is not enough bandwidth available anywhere to support 1000 people connected to a single server over the internet. I'm sorry. That is patently not true. The amount of data that eve sends back and forth is a pittance. Eve is just as playable over dial up as it is over broadband. It just doesn't use much bandwidth. It is far more likely, as a previous poster suggested, that collision detection code is probably a major contributor to the issue. Basically everything that moves in space in a single system has to look at its surroundings to see if it is touching anything. The more objects that are in space, the more live threads there are running on that node checking all the surrounding objects to see if there is a collision with one of the surrounding objects. I've no idea if this _is_ the cause, but its actually plausible, unlike your explanation which is, to be quite honest, ridiculous. To get to the point - If the issue is collision detection code, then the issue will still exist if the server is "sharded" in the traditional sense. Lots of people on here assume that sharding will help, but they do so without the intimate knowledge of the architecture of the system to determine if that is really going to help the situation. I don't have the intimate knowledge to know if it will help or not, but I know enough, from observation, to be able to know that it is unlikely that "sharding" will resolve any of the issues that you see on a daily basis. Moving to multiple servers per node, i.e. a cluster under a node rather than a cluster of nodes, might help, and I believe that this is something that is being looked at (again from previous posts) -------------------------------- So....
Oche Firestar FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Sevarus James Another way to look at it: By keeping EVE "one world" i.e. no multiple instances, CCP has created a social experiment in a milieu that only 2nd life has attempted to tackle. You do NOT understand the intricate complexities of EVE's markets, politics, or the interdependencies between 0.0 and empire. You shard this environment, ALL of these unique and amazing qualities die. This is perhaps the most unique thing about EVE. That is that 1 person MAY be able to change the universe and affect everyone else (for good or bad). Other MMORPs do not have that feeling about them and for me that is why I stay with EVE. Breaking it down to smaller populations via sharding would, as has been mentioned in other posts, destroy that which makes EVE what it is. This is not to say that EVE does not have problems but considering the history of other companies versus CCP they still are ahead of the pack with what they do and how they handle things.
the'internet is'for'porn	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:40:00 - [49] Okay first, these programmers have been working far too long AND have educations to be called amatures. this is simply name-calling and will NOT gain you any love from CCP. Second, new technology comming from a partnership between Intel and Microsoft will shortly render this moot as clustering will be handled abstractly. If you need more power for a system, the underlying OS will simply assign more computers on the cluster. Need more processing ina single grid? Same deal. Additionally.. CCP said no. and they also said no way. Oh CCP also said "Never". Do you REALLY want CCP to take apart the current cluster to make more than one? Seriously, it's not that there are 30k people on, that does not cause lag, it's the 200 people in one system that causes severe lag. Frankly with more than one shard you will STILL see large bunches of people clustering in single systems and causing lag. Problem duplicated rather than solved. Frankly I for one would prefer CCP spend time and resources improving the current cluster's performance via new clustering tech, Managing traffic (changing jumps so that 300 people don't pass through one "highway" system every hour and by moving around agents so that all the caldari lvl 4's are not within spitting distance of each other (As an example). All of the above preferred solutions are indeed on the drawing board.
solbright altaltaltalt	Posted - 2007.09.18 21:46:00 - [50] Originally by: the'internet is'for'**** If you need more power for a system, the underlying OS will simply assign more computers on the cluster. Need more processing ina single grid? Same deal. A strongly suspect a single node is also a single OS thread. The internal multitasking of a node is reliant on cooperative task switching. Splitting that across multiple processors will, at best, do very little to help due to the synchronous nature of the codebase and, more likely, completely fall over due to lack of synchronising locks. CCP aren't kidding when they say the hurdle is a biggie.
Acacia Everto Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 01:41:00 - [51] Agreed, the multithreading is a big challenge but I have a feeling that it eventually can be improved. There's a processor I read about which has x physical cores, but appears as one and transparently splits single processes between them at a hardware level. Plus the code can be improved and calculations shuffled off to other processes (and thus other processors) or even other machines via infiniband. I think in the future it'll be possible for them to dynamically resize systems to use multiple processors and nodes based on the load demands placed on it.

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