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Raoul Endymion Gallente x13	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:24:00 - [61] Originally by: DarkMatter Unfortunately, the administration greatly underestimated insurgency & sectarian strife, and the plan will be ruined when Hillary Clinton takes office and brings the war to an end. ...and they lived happily ever after...the end would be the best thing if that happen, which i sincerly hope it will. x13 Website ~ x13 Killboard ~ x13 Recruitment
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:25:00 - [62] Originally by: DarkMatter Have Iraq as a base of operations for any war against Iran. This includes the use of the Iraqi army for that war. Quench our energy needs utilizing this oil rich region. Give the Iraqi's a better life. We are there for all those reasons, though ppl may not like the order of priority. But that's the world we live in... Iraq was the easiest nation to invade to create this "friendly" Islamic Democracy the Middle East, and it's right on Irans doorstep to boot. This makes sense to me, considering the current administration. Quote: Unfortunately, the administration greatly underestimated insurgency & sectarian strife, and the plan will be ruined when Hillary Clinton takes office and brings the war to an end. We will not have an Iraqi democracy, and we will not have a friend in the region... I think it was much more than just underestimation. From the onset the war planners (mainly the upper escellon of the Executive Branch) didn't seem to have much interest in planning for the post-war Iraq. From the questionable intelligence recieved from exiled leaders, to the order for US troops not to interfere with looting, to the disbanding of the Iraqi army, we've made huge mistakes in dealing with the post-war situation because the plan for a post-war Iraq was only drawn up two months before the invasion (compared to two years for post-WW2 Germany). Withdrawing troops in the near future will ruin whatever chances we have, however. If we stay it'll have to be for another decade, and I'm not sure how capable the troops are regarding that task.
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:26:00 - [63] Quote: Yeah, that just about sums up my opinions about it as well. But I dont believe that you will ever successfully create a peaceful democracy out of Iraq. Like you said, its not the top priority either. If the oil runs out, you're out of there. Actually no. I believe the long term benefits of having Iraq on our side is way more important than the current energy problems... I'm one who also believe that the people deserve democracy, or a good shot at it too... Having Iraq as a strong stable democracy will hurt Iran's & Syria's positions, that should be the main focus IMO... I don't want to see troop withdrawal until Iraq has a real chance to make it... My Current Project
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:29:00 - [64] Originally by: DarkMatter I believe the long term benefits of having Iraq on our side is way more important than the current energy problems... I'm one who also believe that the people deserve democracy, or a good shot at it too... Having Iraq as a strong stable democracy will hurt Iran's & Syria's positions, that should be the main focus IMO... I don't want to see troop withdrawal until Iraq has a real chance to make it... But the democracy thing is just something they use to get people like yourself, who want good for the Iraqi people, to support them. They dont care about that... its the oil they are after. You shouldnt support leaders like that... --- The Disclosure Project \| My UFO Thread (read it!)
Jernau Gurgeh Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:29:00 - [65] Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: Yeah, that just about sums up my opinions about it as well. But I dont believe that you will ever successfully create a peaceful democracy out of Iraq. Like you said, its not the top priority either. If the oil runs out, you're out of there. Actually no. I believe the long term benefits of having Iraq on our side is way more important than the current energy problems... I'm one who also believe that the people deserve democracy, or a good shot at it too... Having Iraq as a strong stable democracy will hurt Iran's & Syria's positions, that should be the main focus IMO... I don't want to see troop withdrawal until Iraq has a real chance to make it... The thing about democracy is that you can't force it upon people. There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:30:00 - [66] ....France? Are you on drugs? Originally by: consider telos ..then we had a fight and he was so dead and then I like became champion of eve and then ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked me to go out with him on a date to mcD'
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:31:00 - [67] Originally by: Jim McGregor But the democracy thing is just something they use to get people like yourself, who want good for the Iraqi people, to support them. They dont care about that... its the oil they are after. You shouldnt support leaders like that... Be that as it may, if part of the end result that the people of Iraq can live without having to deal with an extremely opressive government and civil war, then it's a reasonable goal too. You can support the result even if you don't support the motive.
Teh Hoodedclaw	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:32:00 - [68] Originally by: DarkMatter I don't want to see troop withdrawal until Iraq has a real chance to make it... Problem is that could take decades or longer, the iraqi police/military and goverment's are riddled with pro iranian sympathisers who are just waiting for the us/uk troops to leave, and if you try to remove them from power they could just end up useing that as an excuse to turn thing's into an even more bloody cival war than there already is?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:34:00 - [69] Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Jim McGregor But the democracy thing is just something they use to get people like yourself, who want good for the Iraqi people, to support them. They dont care about that... its the oil they are after. You shouldnt support leaders like that... Be that as it may, if part of the end result that the people of Iraq can live without having to deal with an extremely opressive government and civil war, then it's a reasonable goal too. You can support the result even if you don't support the motive. Still, the invasion was based on lies, in order to get oil. Now you are staying because of the democracy reasons, when thats not a priority and probably cant even be achieved. Its not like Bush talks about oil in the media, is it? He knows what buttons to push. He wants to look like someone who cares about the Iraqi. But he couldnt care less. --- The Disclosure Project \| My UFO Thread (read it!)
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:37:00 - [70] Originally by: Teh Hoodedclaw Originally by: DarkMatter I don't want to see troop withdrawal until Iraq has a real chance to make it... Problem is that could take decades or longer, the iraqi police/military and goverment's are riddled with pro iranian sympathisers who are just waiting for the us/uk troops to leave, and if you try to remove them from power they could just end up useing that as an excuse to turn thing's into an even more bloody cival war than there already is? I think we would need to have troops there for 10-20 years or more. Similar in numbers to what we have kept in South Korea for the last 50+ years. I'm really pulling for the Iraqi government to make it... Also, the North & South had to reconcile here for the US to make it, I hope the Sunni & Shiite can too. But I fear that reconciliation concerning slavery is a bit easier than for the religions differences they have... That sucks... My Current Project

Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:38:00 - [71] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Thanos Draicon Originally by: Jim McGregor But the democracy thing is just something they use to get people like yourself, who want good for the Iraqi people, to support them. They dont care about that... its the oil they are after. You shouldnt support leaders like that... Be that as it may, if part of the end result that the people of Iraq can live without having to deal with an extremely opressive government and civil war, then it's a reasonable goal too. You can support the result even if you don't support the motive. Still, the invasion was based on lies, in order to get oil. Now you are staying because of the democracy reasons, when thats not a priority and probably cant even be achieved. Its not like Bush talks about oil in the media, is it? He knows what buttons to push. He wants to look like someone who cares about the Iraqi. But he couldnt care less. True, but the fact is that as long as our presence in Iraq creates more positive opportunities for Iraqi people than our departure does, we need to be there. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree on this, I like this thread and don't want to get it locked.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:39:00 - [72] Originally by: Thanos Draicon True, but the fact is that as long as our presence in Iraq creates more positive opportunities for Iraqi people than our departure does, we need to be there. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree on this, I like this thread and don't want to get it locked. No no, I think its a good discussion too. Its fine to disagree, im just arguing my own point. :) --- The Disclosure Project \| My UFO Thread (read it!)
Micheal Dietrich Cynical Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:40:00 - [73] Originally by: Thanos Draicon I like this thread and don't want to get it locked. Thanx alot for damning it to it's doom. ___________________________ Never Forget, Never Forgive
Jernau Gurgeh Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:47:00 - [74] Originally by: DarkMatter 9/11 is what enabled us to try and create this Democratic Middle Eastern country. And the real tragedy here is that Iraq not only nothing to do with 9/11, but also that the government there was actually anti-Al Qaeda at the time. There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:51:00 - [75] Originally by: DarkMatter 9/11 is what enabled us to try and create this Democratic Middle Eastern country. I never had a problem with that. I knew full well what politics were being employed to attain that goal. Was there that many people that were too stupid to see this??? Well, considering Bush didnt say "hey guys, lets go help the Iraqi" but instead said "these people are evil, evil, evil and we must go invade their country because they hate our way of life" might have gotten a few people confused. :) If you are going to invade countries that hate your way of life, you are going to have some work cut out for you. --- The Disclosure Project \| My UFO Thread (read it!)

Eshtir Forum Moderator	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:51:00 - [76] Right, no politics. No "future war" threads. Peace! forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website! It's full of stars.

Saya Hime	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:52:00 - [77] Let's take a look at the "spread democracy over middle-east" thingy. What country is supporting all the non-democratic regimes in this region? Oh wait, it's the United States of America.
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:52:00 - [78] ok i honestly dont pay attention to the media very often (more twisted entertainment thatn an acurate representation imo) so what exactly caused us to invade iraq in teh first place? (btw only 16 so i guess the word most pepole would use in nieave ) ya cant stop the rokh and no i have not nor will i ever contribute anything constructive to your thread
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:52:00 - [79] Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh Originally by: DarkMatter 9/11 is what enabled us to try and create this Democratic Middle Eastern country. And the real tragedy here is that Iraq not only nothing to do with 9/11, but also that the government there was actually anti-Al Qaeda at the time. The leader of that country and his refusal to obey the UN is also what enabled the war. If he would have complied a bit more after 9/11, this would not have been possible IMO... And Iraqi's would have no hope for a better future. Yes they have suffered greatly in recent times, but the hope of a better future IMO is what will push them to having a great country who can compete and win in the global market in the coming decades, as opposed to one with an oppressive dictator and the same old religious stife with terrorism speckeled in... My Current Project


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