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Should players banned for RL threats be allowed to return?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Miz Cenuij Caldari Simply Smacktackular	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 21/09/2007 13:30:17 So, for example we all know that Ginger Magician was banned for making RL threats and a lot of us know that he has now returned with the character "Mist3r Evil". Now the question is, if Ginger Magician was to actually carry out his threats (I killed him on the weekend, so its a fair bet he's raging again), would CCP be liable? The point iam making is do they, knowing that he has returned (numerous petitions have pointed this out)take some part of the blame for his would-be actions? Do CCP have a duty of care to protect thier subscribers from known RL criminals who mean thier subscribers harm? (Threating someone's life is a criminal offence in the UK, be it over the phone, face to face or via any electronic format.) Knowing that Ginger was also UK based he should consider himself lucky that i chose not report his actions and provide all documentation evidencing such. At the time I was content with CCP's actions, howvever since they have now chosen to ignore the fact that a criminal who makes RL threats against its subscribers is once again himself a subscriber. I feel I must for my own safety revisit this issue. Considered opinions desired. "Men are going to die.. and im going to kill them".
34534bobalt3244	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:31:00 - [2] Is he a criminal, or are you a scaredy cat?
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:34:00 - [3] It was ever about criminal intent and I don't think the cops would buy that hogwash from you either. CCP is covering their arses and getting rid of weirdos who don't know when to stop talking. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:37:00 - [4] 1. Unless this clown knows where you live, I don't think you have to worry. 2. Giner Magician is a highly dense source of lulz that the eve community regularly harvests - it would be depriving many people of laughter should he be permanently banned 3. He still lost his entire character - no small toll if he could fly motherships, even without the usual support skills Bottom line: He's never going to actually do anything, you have nothing to worry about and continue blowing him up
Countess NotFarOut2	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:37:00 - [5] Difficult topic. Not so much what should be done, that's a moot point for me. You should ask yourself 2 questions: 1) How serious is a threat? Most ppl stick to words, that is, they may say "I will do something horrible to you" but they never do, it's venting of emotions. Ofcourse, there are a few scary types who mean what they say, but their number is very low. 2) Uttering a threat, even "I kill you", is that worth a lifelong punishment? I don't think so.
Maxpie Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:37:00 - [6] I doubt CCP would have any legal liability (assuming jurisdiction could be obtained over them) unless they in some way allowed him to get your rl identity. I don't know you or Ginger Magician or the details of what happened, but in general if someone is permanently banned, I don't think they should be permitted to start a new account, particularly if they were banned for threats of violence in rl. That being said, it would be easy for someone to open a new account without CCP knowing it was the same person they previously banned. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things.
Helen Tranter	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:38:00 - [7] In game threats are part of Eve, take it too RL and you take it outside of the game. The RL authorities can and should act on this. Just what law he will be prosecuted under depends on the threats, the anti stalking laws in the UK should work well for this sort of thing. Its only Pixels
Kastar Memphis Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:38:00 - [8] No he should not. He would be a dumbass piece of neanderthalian crap that will not be missed :) -----------------------------------------------
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Maxpie I don't know you or Ginger Magician or the details of what happened, but in general if someone is permanently banned, I don't think they should be permitted to start a new account, particularly if they were banned for threats of violence in rl. For the uninformed, my vague understanding is that cenuij here basically lured ginger into a trap and the second Ginger said the wrong thing in local, petitioned it and got Ginger banned. Most people I've heard agree it was just a mean trick, and had nothing to do with real concern. This is just for rubbing salt on a wound. Correct me if I'm wrong. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
NereSky Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:40:00 - [10] Uk Criminal Justice system would never entertain a charge of threatening behaviour as the threat has to be seen as 'immediate' by the victim so you will get no where there im afraid, As far as this game is concerned CCP can enfore their decision how they want but if the 'alleged' char is ginger then surely he has had punitive measures already made against him with the loss of his char, Isnt that enough for you? Or do you want CCP to harass the individual and punish him over and over again for a offence which has already been handled? As much as i disliked Ginger i dont know the circs of the incident and tbh its none of my business but his char 'apparently' has been perma banned so unless he repeats the offence i suggest let it go.
TomParad0x Caldari Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Miz Cenuij Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 21/09/2007 13:30:17 So, for example we all know that Ginger Magician was banned for making RL threats and a lot of us know that he has now returned with the character "Mist3r Evil". Now the question is, if Ginger Magician was to actually carry out his threats (I killed him on the weekend, so its a fair bet he's raging again), would CCP be liable? The point iam making is do they, knowing that he has returned (numerous petitions have pointed this out)take some part of the blame for his would-be actions? Do CCP have a duty of care to protect thier subscribers from known RL criminals who mean thier subscribers harm? (Threating someone's life is a criminal offence in the UK, be it over the phone, face to face or via any electronic format.) Knowing that Ginger was also UK based he should consider himself lucky that i chose not report his actions and provide all documentation evidencing such. At the time I was content with CCP's actions, howvever since they have now chosen to ignore the fact that a criminal who makes RL threats against its subscribers is once again himself a subscriber. I feel I must for my own safety revisit this issue. Considered opinions desired. Originally by: EULA You may encounter and converse with people who are rude, offensive, belligerent, and who may use indecent, obscene, and/or threatening or harassing language while playing the Game. You may report any instances of such behavior to CCP. CCP will investigate and take such measures as CCP, in its sole judgment, determines are reasonable under the circumstances. CCP does not guarantee that you will not encounter behavior of others that you may view as insulting, demeaning, offensive, threatening or harassing. You assume all risk associated with playing the Game, and CCP assumes no responsibility for the conduct of any other players, and shall not be liable to you or any other person for their conduct. from http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp I could have sworn there was something saying harassing / threatening was against the rules... However, if he was banned, and was perma banned, if they can prove its him I think they could get him on ban evasion? I dont think CCP tolerates clear threats / harassment (Such as its clear the person is harassing / threatening, and the person reporting him is not just trying to 'get back at him' or whatever you may call it), though, I am not sure. Also, I dont think filing charges against him in the UK would be worth much if he is not in the UK, or another country that would hand him over? I am not sure how that works though (Programmer, not a legal expert :( ).
Zenst Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:44:00 - [12] Fact is you cant actualy prove it was him. Too simplify this lets use the example of somebody in a house shouting abuse at you. You know it was from that house and sounded like Mr X and it is Mr X's house. But can you prove it was Mr X. From all reasonable doubt the answear is no. That is the UK law system in a nutshell. As for CCP's EULA, well that account broke a rule and was dealt with accordingly. Its the account here being the keyword. Of course same EULA also states you cant discuss petitions which in a way technicaly doing here as you refer to individuals. Also seems to mention something about griefing/harrassin, well something along those lines iirc and you pretty much bordering there from what your saying. Bottom line - has he appologised to you at all for his comments? Also - dont you think he's suffered enough for his, whilst not condoned but understandable mistake in the ehat of the moment. All that said I totaly understand were your comming from and lack of a timely response by CCP only fueling your distaste in this matter. So in that respect I feel you do have a very very valid point that needs addressing. My answear on it all is if he appologises too you and CCP there happy that its a genuine appology then he should be allowed his old account back and everybody can move on.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:47:00 - [13] If someone threatens your life you should report it to your local law enforcement, if they contact us for information we will assist them. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ

Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:51:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Wrangler If someone threatens your life you should report it to your local law enforcement, if they contact us for information we will assist them. You do realise he is not being serious in any way except trying to milk the him vs. ginger issue out even further to make sure everyone knows about it? This is nothing but epeen stroking. Originally by: Captian Internet Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Miz Cenuij Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 21/09/2007 13:30:17 So, for example we all know that Ginger Magician was banned for making RL threats and a lot of us know that he has now returned with the character "Mist3r Evil". Now the question is, if Ginger Magician was to actually carry out his threats (I killed him on the weekend, so its a fair bet he's raging again), would CCP be liable? The point iam making is do they, knowing that he has returned (numerous petitions have pointed this out)take some part of the blame for his would-be actions? Do CCP have a duty of care to protect thier subscribers from known RL criminals who mean thier subscribers harm? (Threating someone's life is a criminal offence in the UK, be it over the phone, face to face or via any electronic format.) Knowing that Ginger was also UK based he should consider himself lucky that i chose not report his actions and provide all documentation evidencing such. At the time I was content with CCP's actions, howvever since they have now chosen to ignore the fact that a criminal who makes RL threats against its subscribers is once again himself a subscriber. I feel I must for my own safety revisit this issue. Considered opinions desired. Why would CCP be liable? you play soccer. some other ** plays soccer. you tackle him, he is ed.he says: tackle me again and I will eat your mommy. he gets sent off. Next game you tackle him. He eats your mom. The soccerclub where the match was held is liable? WHAT UTTER BS! ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
LondonTowers Caldari Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:57:00 - [16] to be honest... who really cares? end of the day you seriously annoyed the guy, you then aggravated him, what did you expect would happen? its akin to walking around poking someone with a stick for hours on end then crying because they turned round and smacked you in the face. the UK police would basically turn around and tell you it was your own stupid fault that it happened, there wouldn't even be a case to answer. in my opinion, drop it, and let the guy get on with what ever he wants to do.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Miz Cenuij Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 21/09/2007 13:30:17 So, for example we all know that Ginger Magician was banned for making RL threats and a lot of us know that he has now returned with the character "Mist3r Evil". Now the question is, if Ginger Magician was to actually carry out his threats (I killed him on the weekend, so its a fair bet he's raging again), would CCP be liable? The point iam making is do they, knowing that he has returned (numerous petitions have pointed this out)take some part of the blame for his would-be actions? Do CCP have a duty of care to protect thier subscribers from known RL criminals who mean thier subscribers harm? (Threating someone's life is a criminal offence in the UK, be it over the phone, face to face or via any electronic format.) Knowing that Ginger was also UK based he should consider himself lucky that i chose not report his actions and provide all documentation evidencing such. At the time I was content with CCP's actions, howvever since they have now chosen to ignore the fact that a criminal who makes RL threats against its subscribers is once again himself a subscriber. I feel I must for my own safety revisit this issue. Considered opinions desired. the only reason he was banned is because you reported him for an RL threat that occurred in game. If he had threatened you via email or other outside means, thats no longer CCP's problem. They cant ban him now because he hasnt done anything wrong with the character hes got going again. Seriously, are you afraid of him that you think he'll come kill you? Get over it...its a game, if he hasnt threatened you in game again, then drop it...it only makes you look the part of the child here.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: CCP Wrangler If someone threatens your life you should report it to your local law enforcement, if they contact us for information we will assist them. You do realise he is not being serious in any way except trying to milk the him vs. ginger issue out even further to make sure everyone knows about it? This is nothing but epeen stroking. I don't know what happened and what didn't happen, but if someone has threatened another persons life that should be reported to the police so they can investigate and decide on what to do. If he's not serious then he will either not report it or the police will find out and handle it. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ

Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:00:00 - [19] Quote: "Men are going to die.. and im going to kill them". I'm a man, and you are gonna kill me? ZOMG now where do I file charges? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:05:00 - [20] Edited by: Death Kill on 21/09/2007 14:05:00 Bah! I really could not care less but, I belive in second chances. If a banned person creates a new account then sure let him. He might bahve better after loosing his trillion skillpoiints main. If he fails to behave just ban him again. Call to arms!!!
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:06:00 - [21] Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/09/2007 14:06:40 Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: CCP Wrangler If someone threatens your life you should report it to your local law enforcement, if they contact us for information we will assist them. You do realise he is not being serious in any way except trying to milk the him vs. ginger issue out even further to make sure everyone knows about it? This is nothing but epeen stroking. I don't know what happened and what didn't happen, but if someone has threatened another persons life that should be reported to the police so they can investigate and decide on what to do. If he's not serious then he will either not report it or the police will find out and handle it. May i please enlighten you with a little example. Scenario: 2 kids, 5 years old. Kid A doesn't like Kid B. Kid A starts pestering Kid B untill Kid B pushes him away and he falls. Kid A simulates pain to parents Parents comfort kid A with a lolly and tell Kid B to go to bed early for being mean. ?? Profit for Kid A! Get the idea? Originally by: Captian Internet Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL
Gats Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:08:00 - [22] Edited by: Gats on 21/09/2007 14:09:32 give him the adress and an invitation imo Ive read a story some time ago , not sure what game it was involving but basicly it whas a guy harassing some ppl in a fantasy game(griefing) and they treatn him and he gave hes adress thinking it whas a bluff but unfortunatly it wasnt and the guy got hes ass kicked . Think this happend in Mexico , not sure though . found it OW NOES WOW
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:11:00 - [23] http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2137705/online-game-ends-murder http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1334618.htm it could happen and it isnt unheard of.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/09/2007 14:16:12 Originally by: zilllii http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2137705/online-game-ends-murder http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1334618.htm it could happen and it isnt unheard of. Thats 2 cases on 2billion internet users worldwide. Your point? People need to sit down and relax a bit more. It's a goddamn game, i couldnt care less if someone threatens my life, my home, my family or curses my lastname my habits or my dead mother, its a GAME. The fact that people like Miz try to abuse the protection system of games like these in order to put down others like ginger is pretty lame. Originally by: Captian Internet Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:15:00 - [25] miz, stop trying to get him banned again :D
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:15:00 - [26] There are some sad, sad people out there. ---------------
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:17:00 - [27] I thought ginger was banned for repetitious use of fradulant petitions? or was it because ccp prefers garlic? bah, I can't remember 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Tortun Nahme I thought ginger was banned for repetitious use of fradulant petitions? or was it because ccp prefers garlic? bah, I can't remember i'd imagine they actually banned him for being a pain in the f*cking arse, but since that's not strictly against the EULA other reasons were found.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:23:00 - [29] I would say it wouldn't have been too necessary to dig for those reasons they DID petition you for spam if you even stated they were camping the gate ONCE whilst on the other side, which IS a violation 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Trek Minmatar N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:38:00 - [30] Intedependent of the reasons for a ban and the person banned, I was under the impression that it was the person and not the character that was banned from the game. Of course there might be a bit of a problem to prove if it is the same person if it is a new credit card that is used to pay the subscription or if game time cards are used. --- My other ship is a Reaper
Kel Dario Amarr M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:00:00 - [31] Somewhere someone said that the real Ginger sold his accounts and left the game. So the kid who got banned wasn't the original owner of the character Ginger Magician. However there is no way I can confirm it so I don't know if its true. To bad he is banned, ginger was a kind of legend, but not for his l33t "skills" but for his massive ego that made him part of the laughing stock of eve on many occasions Miz, if you feel threatened in any way then you should go straight to your local police and let them handle it. Then CCP could take action in game. But I do get the feeling that you A) either take the game to seriously and need to cool down, or B) are just trying hard to get the person (if its really him) banned again. Shame on you if it is the later. //Kel
Chardonay Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:01:00 - [32] It's an interesting subject. There is a major revamp underway in UK law around the, now described, 'Cyber Bullying' activities such as phone text based direct abuse and internet website and forum threatening behaviour. I can assume that this will also cover other methods of internet based communications such as chat rooms, and indeed online games. Its already the case in Korea that a National ID (of sorts) number is required before a user can post on a public forum hosted and accessed with its borders. The responsibility of enforcing this is firmly with the forum hosts who are liable to prosecution should it be circumvented, although how this can be expected to work in such an insecure medium is unclear. What is likely though in the UK Cyber Bullying law changes is that service providers will be required to provide records not only to law enforcement services, but also to solicitors involved in litigation. At the moment you would need to have the Police determine if a complaint is worth pursuing, after this change you can procede with civil action and force service providers to divulge records directly, or risk prosecution themselves. It will still not clarify the liability of a forum host for the content of its forum though, thats very much still a grey area.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:10:00 - [33] Ok, this is going a bit too far now. If a person is banned is between us and that person, and nothing we will discuss with anyone else. If a person returns with another account, we will not let you know if it is him or not as those details are confidential and again, between us and them. If believe the person is back with a new account and should be banned you are welcome to petition it and have our GMs handle it. We will not be handling anything like that through the forums, period. If anyone gets a real life threat, it should be reported to the police. If they contact us we will give them any help they request, but at that point it is out of our hands. Seeing as none of these scenarios will be handled on the forums, I am locking this. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ


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