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Race balance. [Please read and comment CCP if you got the time]

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Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:08:00 - [1] Today its mainly like this : Caldari : PVE ftw and one sniper platform Gallente : Damage ftw Minmatar : We got good ships in general. Battlehsips, force recons, battlecruisers you name it. Amarr : I hear revelation is a good ship. Their force recons were good before nos nerf. Bottom line is, instead of each race being good for PVP, PVE or POS wars or wahetver give each race a ship thats good for one of them. Why shouldnt Caldari have a ship thats good for PVP? Why shouldnt Amarr have a ship good for PVE? etc etc etc Think about it. Call to arms!!!
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:11:00 - [2] So insightful. PS, God is watching you. 800mm Artillery II BPO Auction Ask me about Secured ISK Loans.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:13:00 - [3] Originally by: Ray McCormack So insightful. I know its saturday night. But it would be nice to have something other than a knee jerk reaction from you. Call to arms!!!
Nadjer rotten rogues	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:17:00 - [4] How about we just eliminate 3 of the races and just play with 1, then everyone would be a dead balance in every fight and it would be so much fun.
brakespear Minmatar Wayward Brewing Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:18:00 - [5] Edited by: brakespear on 22/09/2007 18:18:51 Originally by: Death Kill Bottom line is, instead of each race being good for PVP, PVE or POS wars or wahetver give each race a ship thats good for one of them. But surely the fact that you aren't limited to one particular race's ships make this kind of balancing unnecessary - after all, you would maybe expect each race to have quirks in their nature which leads them to lean towards particular specifics whilst designing their ships. -------------------------------------------------- brakespear - the lowest common denominator
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:29:00 - [6] Edited by: MITSUK0 on 22/09/2007 18:30:04 Cross train tbh. People need to stop treating the races like "classes" from other well known mmo's. It is stupid to say I am a caldari pilot. Want to fly inties/dictors? Then pick the ones you want to fly and train them. Want a gank battleship? Then pick one and train it. Want an uber support ship? Then pick one and train it. Simple huh?
Jin Hatakami	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:31:00 - [7] I actually think the problem is slots, not race. The reason some races seem poor is lack of slots (amarr midslots, caldari being shield tankers + the need for 2 mids for web/scram) if we had 4 slot types (weapons, electronics, tank, misc) we would be better off (in my limited experience that is). Weapons = more or less turret / launcher hardpoints Electronics = EW and webbers / scrams etc Tank = shield or armor tank Misc = Nos / neut / cap batteries / speed stuff etc it's a load of work to rework the game tho
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Jin Hatakami I actually think the problem is slots, not race. The reason some races seem poor is lack of slots (amarr midslots, caldari being shield tankers + the need for 2 mids for web/scram) if we had 4 slot types (weapons, electronics, tank, misc) we would be better off (in my limited experience that is). Weapons = more or less turret / launcher hardpoints Electronics = EW and webbers / scrams etc Tank = shield or armor tank Misc = Nos / neut / cap batteries / speed stuff etc it's a load of work to rework the game tho You will still run into the same problem. Not every ship can be good at ganking while also being good at tanking and ewar and tackling... Ships that do fit this model are nerfed... Each race has good ships in it, one race (even gallente) does not have every ship type you could ever need. IMHO it is kinda the whole point, CCP want to keep you training, keep you sinking time into various lvl5 skills in order to become a balanced pilot. Pick a role not a race to start out with, for instance max out an interceptor, then work on a hac then on a BS and so on until you have a balanced selection of ships. Then you can use the right tool for the right job instead of trying to hammer raven shaped pegs through dps shaped holes.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:39:00 - [9] I really have no doubt that the Devs see your name in the post and their eyes glaze over. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Johsua Yoltar Minmatar Extreme Intentions Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:45:00 - [10] this is why u need team mates :] u just cant just go in alone, most of the time, when ur opponent is just as good as u. you have a weakness which ur corp mate could have a strength in. that balances everythin out. i guess it just depends. but thats how i see it. -----------------------------------------
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.09.22 20:07:00 - [11] Originally by: MITSUK0 Edited by: MITSUK0 on 22/09/2007 18:30:04 Cross train tbh. I am because Im forced to. Quote: People need to stop treating the races like "classes" from other well known mmo's. If anything, the current system is like other mmo's. Quote: Simple huh? Great way to make money huh? Maybe CCP should let people have 20 character slots instead of 3. Call to arms!!!
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.22 20:24:00 - [12] Yup it nets more gametime from players which = more money. Thats why I said it seems to be the whole point of not having one race do everything. But it is not like other MMO's really, my one char can tackle, dps, ewar, bait ect ect providing I train it too. My old rogue on WoW will allways be a rogue, if I wanted a warrior I would have to roll one and level it which would mean less time playing as a rogue. In EVE I can still play as a tackler while I train to be a dps'er.
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2007.09.22 21:13:00 - [13] im a full blodded amarr. as in i have all the amarr skills maxed out basicly. but i also trained up misils etc.. because the amarr alone sucks... hounestly the amarr is the worst race in the game... its so nerfed its unbeliveble.. SADLY! but then agaian if you look at the biggerpicture the amarr can be used as canon fodder due to its heavy tank.. so jeez.. its a hard one...
Terazuk Amarr Rogen's Heroes Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.22 21:23:00 - [14] Originally by: MITSUK0 Cross train tbh. Die! Soon everything will be Chance-based™ and it will take anything from 5 minutes to 8 hours to kill a cruiser and all skills will be rank 18 or higher! meh :( Originally by: "Johho Bulon" ...for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.22 21:47:00 - [15] All races can be used very efficiently in pvp. You just need to understand their racial philosophy of combat and use their stregths to maximum effect. "Know yourself, know your enemy, and there can be no dedeat" -Sun Tzu, art of war With caldari, it's high tech, EW and outrangeing (outrage ftw) your enemy. You have plentiful mid slots for EW and lows for damage mods. Choose your fights, disable the enemy, and rip them to bits. Gallante rely on electronic superiority and massive damage capabilities, so use those advantages to force your opponent to point-blank range, where you have the advantage. With Minmatar, you have high alpha strikes(arties), best maneuvarability and good at close range, outside of web range combat. Amarr. Superior tanking ability, with superior mid range damage. Tachies provide you with blaster like damage to up to 40km. Ironically the best friend of a tach boat is a huggin that makes the target much easier to hit (ok, beams have the best tracking of long range weapons, but still)... Tracking distrupters prevent other gun ships from touching you at mid to long range. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:24:00 - [16] Some people like that each race has strong and weak points, others don't. I dislike starting characters over (in other MMOs "rerolling" characters). Maybe this is why I don't like having to train multiple races to be proficient at everything. If I knew Caldari were the PVE kings from the beginning I would have chosen another race. I think that Warcraft III had a good balance of races. Each race had effective units for all elements of combat, but they were still very unique and different. Trying to balance each race is not the same as removing all races but one. That is just a knee jerk shortsighted argument. They CAN be different but equal. There is no "right" way as it's a matter of opinion. Balancing all races would be my vote. Honestly though, the races seem fairly well balanced as they are. There could be improvement, but it's extremely difficult to equalize all things and CCP looks to be at least somewhat successful at this. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:25:00 - [17] thing is though you DONT have to start over, you can cross train, and the skills you have already trained will still come in VERY handy 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/09/2007 22:36:01 As someone who can fly all T1 ships on both chars and some T2 specific to each race... yeah, cross training is good, fun too.. you get to play with all the neat toys... for pvp: Caldari: (Rail sniper set ups): Eagle, Vulture, Rohk, Moa, Harpy, Ferox (ECM madness): Scorp, BB and both Recons. med slots often get used for other things instead of webber/scram... need teammates. but deadly none the less, or you can be REALLY annoying to stay out of their range and harrass them. For Gallente: (Blasterboat/Rails): Hyperion, Megathron, Thorax, deminos, Brutix, both command ships (Droneboats): Domi, Vexor, ishtar, Ishkur, both command ships, myr (Dampers): Maulus, celestis, recons, Drones can be shot out underneath them, blasterboats have to get on top of enermy to hit.. dampeners are useful though =P especially in groups and combined with drones. For Minmatar: Well, I havent flown them that much, but yeah, someone else fill this in. but arty can hurt really bad... and hit from REALLY far away... I once been hit by over 3k dmg from a mael over 90km... my arse is still sore... For Amarr: .... errm yeah, Lasers Sucks.... Khalid MK 2 ships are usable (nice too) in pvp though. they hurt =P but yeah, any ship can be effective in the right hands....provided they dont use Lasers =P edit: yeah,cross training is a time sink.. but I can honestly say, is worth it. Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Tortun Nahme thing is though you DONT have to start over, you can cross train, and the skills you have already trained will still come in VERY handy True, that and the fact that skills train while you are offline AND that there is no end to character advancement is what I love about the EVE system. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:47:00 - [20] Well i'm a bit curious about this whole "amarr don't do pve good" thing. I run Caldari missions, with a laser ship, and i'm doing fine. Sure, a Caldari bs can rip through those same rats in less time, but it's not like i'm in any trouble out there. Even level IVs are manageable with a single armageddon. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Well i'm a bit curious about this whole "amarr don't do pve good" thing. I run Caldari missions, with a laser ship, and i'm doing fine. Sure, a Caldari bs can rip through those same rats in less time, but it's not like i'm in any trouble out there. Even level IVs are manageable with a single armageddon. I suspect they'd be even better than caldari when dealing with sanshas nation battleships. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Frug Originally by: Sheriff Jones Well i'm a bit curious about this whole "amarr don't do pve good" thing. I run Caldari missions, with a laser ship, and i'm doing fine. Sure, a Caldari bs can rip through those same rats in less time, but it's not like i'm in any trouble out there. Even level IVs are manageable with a single armageddon. I suspect they'd be even better than caldari when dealing with sanshas nation battleships. True, running Amarr missions was like...well...shooting halfhumans in a barrel My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:53:00 - [23] Originally by: MITSUK0 Then you can use the right tool for the right job instead of trying to hammer raven shaped pegs through dps shaped holes. Nice quote. Wonder what a DPS shaped hole looks like. Megathron shaped, or mor along the lines of the Armageddon/Abaddon? -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:11:00 - [24] I think that, overall, it's pretty balanced, except for Amarr, we need some love, seriously. If every race had a ship that could be used for any situation it would be pretty boring. The fact that some races have ships that excel at certain aspects of the game adds variety, as long as they aren't only capable of that aspect. If Caldari were only useful, at all, for PvE, for instance, it would be stupid. But they're not. Some are more limited than others in what their options are, cough Amarr, but if every race could do everything, it would really detract form the game. Say there were 5 areas to consider for play-styles: mining, PvE, Gank, Tank, ECM, then I'd say that each race should have 3 or 4 out of the 5 as options. This adds variety to each race, but doesn't mean that every one can do the same thing. If they could, why even bother with different races? Everybody would have the same skills at the same levels. Having differences encourages variety in the game, and variety is the spice of life. There should be a bit of the unknown in the game, otherwise you get something like WoW, where everything is almost predetermined based on race, class, and level. I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
Bodhisattvas mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.09.23 07:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Death Kill Today its mainly like this : Caldari : PVE ftw and one sniper platform Gallente : Damage ftw Minmatar : We got good ships in general. Battlehsips, force recons, battlecruisers you name it. Amarr : I hear revelation is a good ship. Their force recons were good before nos nerf. Bottom line is, instead of each race being good for PVP, PVE or POS wars or wahetver give each race a ship thats good for one of them. Why shouldnt Caldari have a ship thats good for PVP? Why shouldnt Amarr have a ship good for PVE? etc etc etc Think about it. You can choose your race etc etc when you create your toon. You have 3 toon slots on one account, your bound to get one right, just by chance even.....
Kyrie Elaison GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.09.23 08:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Death Kill Today its mainly like this : Caldari : PVE ftw and one sniper platform Gallente : Damage ftw Minmatar : We got good ships in general. Battlehsips, force recons, battlecruisers you name it. Amarr : I hear revelation is a good ship. Their force recons were good before nos nerf. Bottom line is, instead of each race being good for PVP, PVE or POS wars or wahetver give each race a ship thats good for one of them. Why shouldnt Caldari have a ship thats good for PVP? Why shouldnt Amarr have a ship good for PVE? etc etc etc Think about it. There's this thing called Eve Fitting Tool. Try it out. It's really amazing because you can make setups, with "subpar" races, that can prove quite entertaining. tl;dr - Make your own way or quit whining. While what you say may be right, generally, the real fun of the game is found in the exceptions. Two words: battle badger.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:21:00 - [27] Edited by: welsh wizard on 23/09/2007 11:26:11 The ships themselves are generally well balanced. It's the mechanics of the fight itself that are not well balanced. Some would argue that this is a good thing. In order to destroy a target successfully (whether its 1 ship or a fleet) Eve favours close range combat creating the illusion of Gallente and to some extents minmatar superiority. Caldari & Amarr get shafted a bit here because their ships are designed to fight outside of disruptor range and they're beset by a number of additional problems that make doing this pretty much impossible or not worth doing. For a start you're never going to see Caldari properly utilise their range advantage because they need to fight with their comrades who will inevitably bring shorter range ships of other races to the fight. If you sit alone at range you generally get picked off or run down by tacklers. Now you can come up with all sorts of situations to argue this theory but in general practice, as a whole, thats how the game is played properly. The evidence is in front of your faces. Secondly, easily attainable speeds in the modern Eve universe have become ludicriously high. This exponentially dilutes the range advantage as there is very little time to "do what you do" before you're tackled and therefore dead. Couple this with the hitpoint buff and sniping just isn't what it used to be without a fleet. Again this means the time taken to shift between a long range combat situation to a close range combat situation is dramatically shorter than it used to be. Again this favours Gallente & Minmatar combat philosophy and ship setups. This generates alot of frenzied debate on these forums as assorted pod pilots (mostly those that aren't affected) reel off all sorts of fantastical ideas about how to fly soft hitting long range ships successfully. It's often all well and good on paper but when applied to the game mechanics these postulations generally fall flat on their faces. In short its going to take a number of sweeping changes to game mechanics to bring about overall combat mechanics balance... Hitpoint reduction, speed reduction, missile speed increases, revised tackling ranges and effectiveness and perhaps most importantly, acceptance from CCP that currently things are not particuarly even. By the time they've finished doing this we'll be playing a different game. edit: Oh I really don't care about npc'ing, give the other 3 races an 8 hardpoint siege launcher ship for all I care. :P NPC'ing should not be considered in matters of combat balance because it involves very little inter player competition meaning the end result is of little consequence. You may aswell moan at your command & conquer playing computer because your CPU controlled skirmish opponent is too hard. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
gernader	Posted - 2007.11.18 08:57:00 - [28] Ok so between this post and [balance] the caldari problem started by welsh wizard there are lots of good points and ideas that, for once, is people actually pointing out problems and offering fixes instead of just whining because they had to think about a setup for the first time since they bought the ship, (I'm not flaming just glad to find someone who isn't just being childish). So heres the thing, last time i had an idea i started a petition, it got me nothing but a broken link to a page that i could "post" my idea on (if it had existed anyway) so how do we up channel your ideas with actual hope of them being read by someone who might care and could actually do something about it
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.18 09:13:00 - [29] Caldari got a good PvP ship already... the Drake. Especially the decloaking kind Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Weekly The Tick quote... "I can't lose my name! It's on all my stationary!!" ~The Tick
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.18 09:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Death Kill Why shouldnt Caldari have a ship thats good for PVP? Rohk. Manticore. Rook. DRAKE. 2isk

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