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Mining just keeps getting worse and worse.

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WilliamH Bonney Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.25 19:06:00 - [1] Dear CCP, How much longer are you guys going to keep on shafting the 0.0 mining industry. I mean, isn't the point behind being in 0.0 the benefit of having better asteroids to mine and better NPC rats to farm? Well, thankfully for the ratters out there, they have been kept happy. But I must say, as someone who mines in this game 20+ hours a week, I just keep getting more and more angerred. First thing that royally ticked me off was the Drone Regions. Now, combat pilots can earn more Isk by farming Drones, and then selling the minerals received from reprocessing drone "poo." Hell, they can even earn more isk doing that then a miner mining over the same amount of time, with 3 times the amount of skill points as the combat pilot. And what did this do to the miner in the end? It dropped many of the 0.0 mineral sell prices through the floor. Zydrine, Isogen, and Noxcium all fell through the floor, worth about half as much as they were before the drone regions. Pyerite, Tritanium, and Mexallon, on the other hand (empire minerals) jumped to 3 or 4 times their previous worth. And now, now we have the Rorqual. A very great ship in my opinion (nice having a large trash compactor around). But truly what has it accomplished already? It has dropped the value of Megacyte through the floor, down to around 2500 isk per, which is a 40% drop in value, with no end in sight for how much further it's going to drop. This then does the same again, increasing more the value of Mexallon, Pyerite, and Tritanium... Well, all this said, I am getting highly annoyed. The more and more I mine out in 0.0, the more the Dev's do to reduce the amount of Isk I can make out there with my efforts. Right now, I'm at the point where I cannot skill up any higher to increase my mining amount, but still, CCP keeps doing more and more to devalue my time in 0.0 mining. All this ranting so far, and what is it that I want? Simple, I want a 20million sp purely mining/industrial character to be able to get more minerals then a 20million sp purely combat character. I want a character who is mining out in 0.0 that is taking substantially more risk, to be able to make substantially more Isk then the guy in .5 and above who is mining Scordite. CCP, please, I'm begging you to look into fixing this, and soon. I know I have heard of "fixing" asteroid belts to be different, but that's a "system" fix, and doesn't sound like a mining fix at all. So how to fix however. I've seen quite a few posts on the matter, but the only thing I can think of in an "economic" standpoint, is to increase the availability of the lower end minerals, Tritanium, Pyerite, and Mexallon. But not in Empire. I truly feel, if however CCP wants to get it done, that if they give the 0.0 miners a "bonus" to mining the low end ores out there, that we could get that "inrush" of low end minerals back to the market, and stabilize things a bit. CCP keeps giving us the "ability" to bring more and more of the high ends, Megacyte, Zydrine, and Noxcium, into empire, with drone lands and now the Rorqual, but you arne't giving us the ability to bring in more of the low ends (or at least not making it worth while). Give us that ability to do so, and you'll make us miners a hell of a lot happier I am sure.
Barbaro55a Caldari Os Lobos	Posted - 2007.09.25 19:43:00 - [2] That sig looks to big, but meh, other than that good post me thinks. .......................................... We come in peace - My sig and your sig would make cute baby sigs.
Marius Damocles Ninja Ratz	Posted - 2007.09.25 19:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Barbaro55a That sig looks to big, but meh, other than that good post me thinks. the sig is w/in size constraints. My wife has a Nos ability that puts a "Curse" to shame.
Jashan T'Okara	Posted - 2007.09.25 19:56:00 - [4] LOL @ instant derail (the sig is fine BTW) vvvvvvvvvv This is a sig, mmkay? vvvvvvvvvv Onoez!! I posterd with an ALT!??!!???
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 19:59:00 - [5] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 20:00:50 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 19:59:50 Too many people rating and mining in drone regions, most of them ISK farmers. Stop huging and start fighting over there and price of high end minerals will go up again.
Winters Chill Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:00:00 - [6] @ the concept of drone "poo"
Mekk Azal November Night Industries	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:09:00 - [7] It would be cool if the mineralmarket was 100% playercontrolled. I realize that a frigate would probebly cost a couple of millions but hey, EVEs a ***** Im just curious as to how the market would evolve.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Mekk Azal It would be cool if the mineralmarket was 100% playercontrolled. Isn't it?
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:26:00 - [9] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 25/09/2007 20:27:33 We need some Pirates to steal all of our crystite. Seriously, we need a reduction of available minerals on the market. Either through some unheard of mineral eating space bacteria that's been introduced from the drone regions, thus contaminating and reducing all of the markets stockpiles, or A unknown group of Jovian pirates comes through and raids the Jita outpost, because 95% of New EvE's worth is contained within it. Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Mekk Azal It would be cool if the mineralmarket was 100% playercontrolled. Isn't it? Nope... A predetermined amount of minerals are produced on the market the same way that skill books are.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Mekk Azal It would be cool if the mineralmarket was 100% playercontrolled. Isn't it? Within certain boundaries, yes. Boundaries being NPC sold refineables (upper value around 180% base for most minerals, even less for others), NPC mineral buy orders (yes they do exist, bottom value 50% base for each mineral), platinum payout (bottom "basket price" 70%) and last but not least mineral "income" via mission/beltrat/hauler looting/refining. Would those boundaries be removed, you WOULD have a 100% player-driven mineral market. But you won't like it at all... mining just about anything would yield almost the same income level overall then. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained

Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Mekk Azal It would be cool if the mineralmarket was 100% playercontrolled. Isn't it? Nope... A predetermined amount of minerals are produced on the market the same way that skill books are. Unless you are talking about minerals that you get by reprocessing items you buy from NPCs, I am pretty darn sure that that is not the case.
Amuko Amarr Happy Little Roid Huggers	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:35:00 - [12] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 20:00:50 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 19:59:50 Too many people rating and mining in drone regions, most of them ISK farmers. Stop huging and start fighting over there and price of high end minerals will go up again. Well mr. expert, if I were to fly to Frege HQ systems, I would only see people happily carebearing away? Because clearly no fighting has been going on over there last few weeks? On-topic: I agree with the OP, and about the drone regions, maybe start giving them bounties and reduce minerals a bit (rp reason, they're becoming too big of a threat to ignore, so concord (?) put bounties on them).
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Mekk Azal It would be cool if the mineralmarket was 100% playercontrolled. Isn't it? Within certain boundaries, yes. Boundaries being NPC sold refineables (upper value around 180% base for most minerals, even less for others), NPC mineral buy orders (yes they do exist, bottom value 50% base for each mineral), platinum payout (bottom "basket price" 70%) and last but not least mineral "income" via mission/beltrat/hauler looting/refining. Would those boundaries be removed, you WOULD have a 100% player-driven mineral market. But you won't like it at all... mining just about anything would yield almost the same income level overall then. Reprocessing doesn't mean the market is not player controlled. It just means that mining is not the only way for players to get hold of minerals.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:48:00 - [14] We must have different definitions for "100%" then, I guess... _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Leora Nomen	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:50:00 - [15] Edited by: Leora Nomen on 25/09/2007 20:51:24 Even for the 0.0 ratters the benefits of 0.0 space aren't that great. Mission runners in empire can make 15-20 mil per hour in bounties plus 4-5 mil in lp for their missions. Experiences mission runners who run in expensive Navy Raven outfits can go up to 25-30 mil per hour. Meanwhile they risk nothing and can work alone. In most 0.0, 20-25 mil an hour is what a ratter can make on bounties and loot. Meanwhile he is also charged with responsibility of protecting his territory, fueling POS, repelling attacks, transporting loots out and ships and mods in, or building them on the spot. He commonly loses ships to hostiles. He often has to work together with his corp and alliance and is depended on many other players. He gets harassed by ISK farmers in their Ravens. Very, very few strike gold a kill an officer rat and most ratters don't see one for 1+ year. The only advantage here being that 0.0 life is less repetitive that mission running, but the burden of running multiple POSs quickly makes up for that. I can imagine how a 0.0 miner's perils are even greater and rewards not any better. guide to game time codes
Serge Tahlon Gallente Templars of Space Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:51:00 - [16] mining is totally useless to make money these days. unless you have access to mercoxit. arkonor, bistot, crock .. all gone to hell. the roq is just another annoyance for every non hard core casual miner. ratting is even more boring than mining. the way it stands please at least half the jump clone time so i can go to empire to run some missions to make money. strange world.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:55:00 - [17] I do think its odd that most of my minerals atm are coming from ratters, not miners. Why even spawn veld in 0.0? Give us ultra dense veld or something.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:00:00 - [18] If CCP can make it so mining lasers work on rats too, I think that'll fix the problem. I've always wanted to mine an NPC to death. --- Join BH-DL
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Serge Tahlon Mining is even more boring than ratting. Fixed it for you. Np, everyone makes mistakes
Serge Tahlon Gallente Templars of Space Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Pilok **fly Originally by: Serge Tahlon Mining is even more boring than ratting. Fixed it for you. Np, everyone makes mistakes lol thanks i indeed got it wrong :D

WilliamH Bonney Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:14:00 - [21] Edited by: WilliamH Bonney on 25/09/2007 21:14:59 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 20:00:50 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 19:59:50 Too many people rating and mining in drone regions, most of them ISK farmers. Stop huging and start fighting over there and price of high end minerals will go up again. Heh, you say this to a Roadkill guy... We started the first real "war" in the drone regions. Got a station out of it too... That doesn't absolve the problems however.
Gridwalker	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:42:00 - [22] Originally by: WilliamH Bonney But I must say, as someone who mines in this game 20+ hours a week, I just keep getting more and more angerred. Wow, no wonder you're angry. Mining 20+ hours a week would drive anyone loopy! ;-) Seriously, though, miners are in a tough spot because there are two ways to get minerals: mine 'em, or recycle 'em. So long as everyone can recycle the loot they get from ratting, it is going to be tough to help miners without screwing things up elsewhere. So what do you really propose? You mentioned increasing low end mineral availability... but wouldn't that simply make the price of low end minerals crash even more? How about reducing the reprocessing returns? Except that affects mineral transport logistics, and will reduce ratters' income. That'll go over about as well as a turd in the public pool. Nerf the drone regions? Then what are the folks who live up there going to do? Increase demand for minerals? All that will do is make everyone's income go up at the same rate: ratters will make more isk, miners will make more isk, and all we've done is introduced inflation. I simply can't even begin to figure out a solution that wouldn't end up screwing over someone else, make the problem worse, or simply introduce inflation. On the bright side, this sure does prove that recycling works, eh? :-) -Grid
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Gridwalker On the bright side, this sure does prove that recycling works, eh? :-) -Grid Boooooooooo! Hiss!
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.25 22:12:00 - [24] WTF this thread? No Rorquals have been completed yet.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.25 22:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Gridwalker Originally by: WilliamH Bonney But I must say, as someone who mines in this game 20+ hours a week, I just keep getting more and more angerred. Wow, no wonder you're angry. Mining 20+ hours a week would drive anyone loopy! ;-) Seriously, though, miners are in a tough spot because there are two ways to get minerals: mine 'em, or recycle 'em. So long as everyone can recycle the loot they get from ratting, it is going to be tough to help miners without screwing things up elsewhere. So what do you really propose? You mentioned increasing low end mineral availability... but wouldn't that simply make the price of low end minerals crash even more? How about reducing the reprocessing returns? Except that affects mineral transport logistics, and will reduce ratters' income. That'll go over about as well as a turd in the public pool. Nerf the drone regions? Then what are the folks who live up there going to do? Increase demand for minerals? All that will do is make everyone's income go up at the same rate: ratters will make more isk, miners will make more isk, and all we've done is introduced inflation. I simply can't even begin to figure out a solution that wouldn't end up screwing over someone else, make the problem worse, or simply introduce inflation. On the bright side, this sure does prove that recycling works, eh? :-) -Grid Hmm, how about greatly decreasing the volume of rat drops, while increasing the quality of rat drops. Named loot already reprocesses back to less minerals than T1 basic stuff. So eliminate the T1 drops altogether and replace them with higher drop rates of named items. As named items are nominally worth more than T1, you can maintain the aggregate value with a significantly smaller quantity of drops, and a much smaller amount of reprocessed minerals. Or: eliminate T1 drops entirely, leave named drops rates as they are, but increase salvage rates. This will really lower minerals from looting, and also help make rigs more accessible. Parts prices will drop some as they become easier to acquire, but many more rigs will be sold when they are cheaper (eg: if the price of rigs halved, I suspect that (much) more than double the number would be purchased), so after a little bouncing around, the supply & demand curve should settle out with salvagers making more ISK. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Hades Tiger Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.09.25 22:54:00 - [26] This thread needs a jumbo waaambulance .jpeg.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.26 01:04:00 - [27] A genuine concern. Unfortunately being a miner you are subject to the mineral market, and unfortunately minerals are the lowest common denominator for everything except salvage/rigs/t2 components/npc trade goods. Being a part of the bottom end of the market is always going to be somewhat downtrodden. It's worth looking at getting into higher level markets using minerals mined yourself rather than just selling them. For some miners 0.0 might not be the place to make isk. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 01:21:00 - [28] Stop buying ISK. Less ISK farmers, less minerals on the market, because most of them moved to drone regions. Drones drop so much minerals that is just the best way to farm ISK. CCP cant stop them from farming and selling ISK, only players can do that if they stop buying ISK (right, like thats going to happen)
Gridwalker	Posted - 2007.09.26 01:30:00 - [29] You do raise some legitimate points, though I suspect any tinkering with rat drops is going to cause an absolute uproar. I'm sure there are quite a few more people in EVE who make their isk ratting than mining. I don't think that eliminating T1 drops is the right route, but decreasing T1 drops and making it up with drops which are more valuable kept or sold than refined will certainly help. Adding more salvage would go a long way towards making up for any loss of T1 drops. It does still leave one issue, however, which is where much of the complaining is coming from: hour for hour, you make more ratting than mining for less of an investment in skill points. If you made the rat drops equal in value but not worth recycling, miners are still stuck, at least in nullsec. All this said, we are still guessing at a number of variables. None of us REALLY know how much of the mineral market is fed by ratters vs. miners. Those would be interesting figures to see... -Grid Originally by: Malcanis Hmm, how about greatly decreasing the volume of rat drops, while increasing the quality of rat drops. Named loot already reprocesses back to less minerals than T1 basic stuff. So eliminate the T1 drops altogether and replace them with higher drop rates of named items. As named items are nominally worth more than T1, you can maintain the aggregate value with a significantly smaller quantity of drops, and a much smaller amount of reprocessed minerals. Or: eliminate T1 drops entirely, leave named drops rates as they are, but increase salvage rates. This will really lower minerals from looting, and also help make rigs more accessible. Parts prices will drop some as they become easier to acquire, but many more rigs will be sold when they are cheaper (eg: if the price of rigs halved, I suspect that (much) more than double the number would be purchased), so after a little bouncing around, the supply & demand curve should settle out with salvagers making more ISK.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.09.26 01:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Serge Tahlon mining is totally useless to make money these days. unless you have access to mercoxit. arkonor, bistot, crock .. all gone to hell. Unless you know someone dumb enough to overpay for Mercoxit, it's not any better than ABC, keeping in mind that Mercoxit mines at a slower rate. There's really nothing worth mining in 0.0 right now, the reward can't justify the costs. It needs fixed. Oh, and William, there's no way the Rorqual is what is killing Megacyte prices. It's true that the dip is timed with the release of Rev 2.2, but there's nothing about the Rorq (never mind the handful of them in existence) that would cause that kind of drop. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map: Keeping Down The Clone Business Since 2007AD



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