| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
   |
Posted - 2007.09.28 20:24:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: JoeSomebody
Originally by: Goumindong
So i fired siege missiles at this battleship that was going 100m/s. But i didnt do any less damage than normal
Clearly velocity has no factor in damage reduction for missiles.
So what you saying is that 100m/sec is too little speed to make a difference for hit by a torpedo... and that somehow should imply that gun with 400 sig resolution firing at target with ~40 (ten times less) sig radius is too little difference as well.
Well in that case see my conclusion above: sig radius damage modifier is bclearly broken.
Its not a damage modifier, its a tracking modifier. and the modifier isnt small, the tranvsersal is small
|
JoeSomebody
No Trademark
The OSS
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 20:33:00 -
[92]
Edited by: JoeSomebody on 28/09/2007 20:33:05
you confusing various damage modifiers, thats all
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 20:35:00 -
[93]
Originally by: JoeSomebody
Edited by: JoeSomebody on 28/09/2007 20:33:05
you confusing various damage modifiers, thats all
No, you are.
|
RuriHoshino
Minmatar
The Mission Guys
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 20:49:00 -
[94]
Could we summarise it thusly -
Transversal / Angular velocity affects chance to hit. If a target is moving across your field of fire too fast for your guns to track it, the sig radius does not matter. It will not hit.
Sig radius / Sig resolution affects quality of hits. If you can track something, the larger it appears to your guns the better hits you will get on it.
There is some overlap in both areas, but does this work as a generalisation? So we can move on?
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 20:59:00 -
[95]
Originally by: RuriHoshino
Could we summarise it thusly -
Transversal / Angular velocity affects chance to hit. If a target is moving across your field of fire too fast for your guns to track it, the sig radius does not matter. It will not hit.
Sig radius / Sig resolution affects quality of hits. If you can track something, the larger it appears to your guns the better hits you will get on it.
There is some overlap in both areas, but does this work as a generalisation? So we can move on?
No, because that is wrong.
Transversal affects your chance to hit. Sig radius/resolution modifies the transversal in an inverest manner such that sig res/sig rad x transversal=real transversal.
real transversal is then compared to gun transversal for chance to hit calculations
|
JoeSomebody
No Trademark
The OSS
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 21:02:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: RuriHoshino
Could we summarise it thusly -
Transversal / Angular velocity affects chance to hit. If a target is moving across your field of fire too fast for your guns to track it, the sig radius does not matter. It will not hit.
Sig radius / Sig resolution affects quality of hits. If you can track something, the larger it appears to your guns the better hits you will get on it.
There is some overlap in both areas, but does this work as a generalisation? So we can move on?
No, because that is wrong.
Transversal affects your chance to hit. Sig radius/resolution modifies the transversal in an inverest manner such that sig res/sig rad x transversal=real transversal.
real transversal is then compared to gun transversal for chance to hit calculations
Which easily proven false by shooting LCO at point blank range.
|
Ishina Fel
Caldari
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 21:02:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Ishina Fel on 28/09/2007 21:03:29
Originally by: RuriHoshino
Could we summarise it thusly -
Transversal / Angular velocity affects chance to hit. If a target is moving across your field of fire too fast for your guns to track it, the sig radius does not matter. It will not hit.
Sig radius / Sig resolution affects quality of hits. If you can track something, the larger it appears to your guns the better hits you will get on it.
There is some overlap in both areas, but does this work as a generalisation? So we can move on?
No, this is not correct. Hit quality degradation is a direct result of bad tracking. If you track well, you will get both lots of hits and good hits; if you track badly, then you get very few hits, and they will be low quality ones.
Transversal velocity and signature radius/resolution both affect tracking only, and are both considered right next to each other in the same formula. It even works in such a way that when the term dealing with transversal returns 0 (i.e. when transversal is 0 in the first place), then the term dealing with signature is multiplied with that 0 and falls out. Yes, this even means a dreadnaught will always hit an interceptor with its capital weapons if transversal is 0. Try it out in your favorite turret calculator sometime.
I remember reading this exact formula on some wiki I think, but I can't seem to find it right now - can anyone link or paste that maybe?
Originally by: JoeSomebody
Which easily proven false by shooting LCO at point blank range.
At this point, you are in negative range, and the formula returns an illegal value (likely -1 instead of 1). Thus your chance to hit is zero regardless of other considerations. Move to 1m from the LCO and you will see normal behavior.
|
Hannobaal
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 21:04:00 -
[98]
Originally by: RuriHoshino
Could we summarise it thusly -
Transversal / Angular velocity affects chance to hit. If a target is moving across your field of fire too fast for your guns to track it, the sig radius does not matter. It will not hit.
Sig radius / Sig resolution affects quality of hits. If you can track something, the larger it appears to your guns the better hits you will get on it.
There is some overlap in both areas, but does this work as a generalisation? So we can move on?
Nope, that isn't how it works. A larger sig radius actually means it is easier to track a target. Both factors, together, have the exact same effect. They get multiplied together in the equation that determines how likely you are to hit.
And then that, in itself, determines the quality of your hits as well. If you have a very low probablity to hit you will be missing most shots, but getting a few low damage hits and maybe the occasional half way reasonable hit. If you have a very high probability, you will get a lot of good hits and a few wrecking shots here and there.
------------------
Disclaimer: Any dumbass opinions I may express in my posts on this board do not in any way reflect the opinions of my corp.
|
Rudy Metallo
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 21:30:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 28/09/2007 21:33:22
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Rudy Metallo
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 27/09/2007 23:27:09
Originally by: madaluap
-85% damp + the ability to leave bubblecamps/get to gate...Get jammed and drones keep hammering.
Only thing it has on the Rupture is one mid (compensated for with 1 high and 2 lows) and 10 m3 drone bay. Not worth the loss of dps.
Thats a completely contrary sentence, you know that, right?
Maybe its you reading comprehension that is the problem, cause there's nothing contradictory about my sentence. To clarify:
The Bellicose has 1 more mid and 10 m3 more drone bay than the Rupture. The Rupture has 1 more high, 2 more lows and a lot more damage. Thus, if you're going to fit the Bellicose like you would fit a Rupture, you'd fly a Rupture cause it's a hell of a lot better for it.
The Bellicose is meant to paint small ships for its own guns and for its fleet. It's a frigate killer. This role it doesn't perform well enough. That's the problem with the Bellicose.
Yeah but you DONT fit a bellicose the way to fit a ruppy. Cause that's stupid.
I just checked and the DPS difference between That extra turret and 2x Warrior IIs you can fit in that last 10m3, and the difference is nominal at best.
And you have no imagination whatsoever when it comes to ships, obviously. A bellicose can be setup so that it can take down Tier 1 BCs and cruisers down with ease. But you insist that it's bonuses must be used.
News flash - THEY DONT.
P.S. Ishina, I have a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
Say what? |
Ishina Fel
Caldari
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 21:37:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Rudy Metallo
P.S. Ishina, I have a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
Fox cunning >> Weasel cunning tbh 
Things you never knew about target painters explained! |
|
|
RuriHoshino
Minmatar
The Mission Guys
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 22:16:00 -
[101]
Okay then 
I just want to establish, though, that no matter how big your signature radius is, if the guns can't move fast enough to track you in your orbit, the guns won't hit you period. No amount of balooning sig radius will change that.
At least, it had better not.
|
JoeSomebody
No Trademark
The OSS
|
Posted - 2007.09.28 23:50:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Rudy Metallo
Yeah but you DONT fit a bellicose the way to fit a ruppy. Cause that's stupid.
I just checked and the DPS difference between That extra turret and 2x Warrior IIs you can fit in that last 10m3, and the difference is nominal at best.
And you have no imagination whatsoever when it comes to ships, obviously. A bellicose can be setup so that it can take down Tier 1 BCs and cruisers down with ease. But you insist that it's bonuses must be used.
News flash - THEY DONT.
P.S. Ishina, I have a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.
before starting calling you names I would like to cover my butt and request that you post that bellicose setup or pure awesomness 
|
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
|
Posted - 2007.09.29 03:24:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Rudy Metallo
Yeah but you DONT fit a bellicose the way to fit a ruppy. Cause that's stupid.
I totally agree.
Quote:
I just checked and the DPS difference between That extra turret and 2x Warrior IIs you can fit in that last 10m3, and the difference is nominal at best.
The Rupture has an additional 5% per level damage bonus, genius. Not to mention its 2 additional low slots (that could potentially be used for damage mods).
So, I repeat, the Rupture has A LOT more damage than a Bellicose.
Quote:
And you have no imagination whatsoever when it comes to ships, obviously. A bellicose can be setup so that it can take down Tier 1 BCs and cruisers down with ease. But you insist that it's bonuses must be used.
A lot of tech 1 cruisers can be set up to where they can take down battlecruisers solo.
Of course I insist the bonuses must be used. They are the only reason for flying the ship in the first place. If I want a fast cruiser I can use the Stabber. If I want a close range, high damage, autocannon cruiser I can use the Rupture. If I want to damp, I'd use the Celestis. If I want a drone cruiser I'd use a Vexor or Arbitrator. They all do those things far better than the Bellicose.
The only reason I could possibly have to use the Bellicose is target painting and frigate killing. Anything else you might possibly want to do with it can be done far better in another cruiser.
|
Dheorl
|
Posted - 2007.09.29 09:37:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
A lot of tech 1 cruisers can be set up to where they can take down battlecruisers solo.
Of course I insist the bonuses must be used. They are the only reason for flying the ship in the first place. If I want a fast cruiser I can use the Stabber. If I want a close range, high damage, autocannon cruiser I can use the Rupture. If I want to damp, I'd use the Celestis. If I want a drone cruiser I'd use a Vexor or Arbitrator. They all do those things far better than the Bellicose.
The only reason I could possibly have to use the Bellicose is target painting and frigate killing. Anything else you might possibly want to do with it can be done far better in another cruiser.
I prob with the fast ship and using a stabber though is that a stabber does less damage and can't do that damage whilst zooming around at 3km/s.
The bellicose is the only ship that can do a speed tanking, missile spamming damp drone cruiser role (well a celestis can pull it off but trades dampening power for speed and is also meant to be an all round ship).
If you read the description it's meant to be highly versitile but not up to the standards at specialized tasks as well as the newer cruisers.
|
kill0rbunny
Jagdkommando
Phoenix Allianz
|
Posted - 2007.09.29 11:27:00 -
[105]
Bellicose is not that bad. It has one medslot more than the stabber, so it can fit a web to kill inties. Speed is also not bad.
2x Overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
3x Dual 180mm AutoCannon II
2x Heavy Missile Launcher II
I pew therefore I am.
|
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
|
Posted - 2007.09.29 11:47:00 -
[106]
So out of curiosity, why isn't it viable to fit target painters on bellicoses. Everyone who thinks they are not bad post crap fits without taking advantage of the ship bonuses. Lame.
At the very least, give the old belli +1 med, -1 low, and a bit more grid.
|
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.09.30 06:36:00 -
[107]
After thinking some more about it I've adjusted how I'd imagine the Bellicose:
4 High slots
- 4 Launcher Hardpoints
5 Mid slots
3 Low slots
minor increase to targeting range with a corresponding reduction of sensor resolution.
small drop in velocity(10 to 15 m/s) as well as a -not too large- increase in mass(+0.75 to +1M kg).
5% Explosive missile damage bonus for light missile, heavy missile and heavy assault missile.
With 4 T2 heavy missile launchers, loaded with Havoc missiles, this Bellicose would do the same dps as former version did with 3 650mm II and 2 T2 heavy missile launchers. Only difference would be that it would benefit more easily from damage mods with only 1 weapon type to consider. And unlike the 5 high-slot bellicose this has that 5th midslot to better allow usage of that target painting bonus alongside other midslot stuff.
---
stuff |
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |