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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4492
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:10:00 -
[61] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:If TiDi is node wide - then the implementation is completely wrong. How could it not be node wide? It's the node that is having trouble handling the requestsGǪ
Quote:I've changed my mind about TiDi breaking low populated systems. If TiDi kicks in I know a blob fleet is on its way. Thanks for expanding local!!! GǪexcept that node assignment and geography aren't necessarily linked.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

Zleon Leigh
67
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:13:00 -
[62] - Quote
YkkonenOnKakkonen wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:YkkonenOnKakkonen wrote:
TiDi is node wide. So it might that there was a fight going on some other system on the node? And fleets (200+) cause tidi to spike to 10% when they jump systems.
If TiDi is node wide - then the implementation is completely wrong. If the node is getting hammered so much that it has to slow the game down to 10% of its normal speed then why should it work any faster on other systems the node is running? It somehow magically gets more cpu time out of thin air to run the other systems on the node?
it's just a matter of where you draw the magical time difference. As far as EVE the universe is concerned some part of it needs to run slower so the entire galaxy doesn't collapse. That can be at the fleet planetary system level, node level (cluster of PS's), or the entire universe (superset). The line should have be drawn at PS's level. CCP implemented it at node level because they can't handle the incoming fleets into the target battle system instead of dynamically adding PS's to the dilation zone as needed (they went with simpler coding). That's what's screwing non-fleet participants over.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |

Zleon Leigh
67
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:16:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:If TiDi is node wide - then the implementation is completely wrong. How could it not be node wide? It's the node that is having trouble handling the requestsGǪ Quote:I've changed my mind about TiDi breaking low populated systems. If TiDi kicks in I know a blob fleet is on its way. Thanks for expanding local!!! GǪexcept that node assignment and geography aren't necessarily linked.
agreed, not necessarily and factually at some point it isn't. But if there isn't an affinity for node assignment and geography then they made another mistake. inter-System traffic is much faster to handle in the CPU rather than across memory switching or ethernet packets. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |

Xirin
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:17:00 -
[64] - Quote
Gee, I was able to lock people and the system was down to 10%. Stop whining. Everyone but you thinks time dilation is an excellent solution to reducing the EFFECTS of lag (since there's no way to remove lag completely, stop telling them to "fix the game" when players keep finding new and creative ways to break it)  |

Zleon Leigh
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:21:00 -
[65] - Quote
Xirin wrote:Gee, I was able to lock people and the system was down to 10%. Stop whining. Everyone but you thinks time dilation is an excellent solution to reducing the EFFECTS of lag (since there's no way to remove lag completely, stop telling them to "fix the game" when players keep finding new and creative ways to break it) 
You're experience went well. I'm happy for you.
Doesn't excuse other problems it is causing...
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
50
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:22:00 -
[66] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:YkkonenOnKakkonen wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:YkkonenOnKakkonen wrote:TiDi is node wide. So it might that there was a fight going on some other system on the node? And fleets (200+) cause tidi to spike to 10% when they jump systems. If TiDi is node wide - then the implementation is completely wrong. If the node is getting hammered so much that it has to slow the game down to 10% of its normal speed then why should it work any faster on other systems the node is running? It somehow magically gets more cpu time out of thin air to run the other systems on the node? it's just a matter of where you draw the magical time difference. As far as EVE the universe is concerned some part of it needs to run slower so the entire galaxy doesn't collapse. That can be at the fleet planetary system level, node level (cluster of PS's), or the entire universe (superset). The line should have be drawn at PS's level. CCP implemented it at node level because they can't handle the incoming fleets into the target battle system instead of dynamically adding PS's to the dilation zone as needed (they went with simpler coding). That's what's screwing non-fleet participants over. The entire cluster is not threaten if a solar system thread on a node gets overloaded.. It just means that at some point the node will crash and pull every solar system thread with it that is running on that very same node (and they will get the lag before that event too ).
CCP implemented the software so, that the lowest level is the thread of a solar system.. that is one thread, one physics simulation. As CCP doesn't have one node per solar system thread (too expensive), most of them will share the nodes all the time, except for notorious overloaded systems like Jita. There the physics simulation is running on one node all the time.
Now Zleon, with that knowledge and given parameters to work with - how is CCP supposed to just TiDi a single thread on a node which is overloaded?
PS: no, as I said earlier.. they can't pull threads from the node to mildly reinforce it yet, as the pleyers would be disconnected. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4492
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 16:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Doesn't excuse other problems it is causing... GǪsuch as?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

Zleon Leigh
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 17:16:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tres Farmer wrote:
Now Zleon, with that knowledge and given parameters to work with - how is CCP supposed to just TiDi a single thread on a node which is overloaded?
PS: no, as I said earlier.. they can't pull threads from the node to mildly reinforce it yet, as the pleyers would be disconnected.
'Cause the problem is the one thread (or probably at most 3 threads) causing the overload, not the entire node. So dilate the one thread and there you go... there is no reason to hit an entire node with TiDi.
This issue is closely related to design simulations done in the engineering community - time scaling and microtime problems have been worked on for years in EDA. Maybe CCP needs to consult with them. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |

Zleon Leigh
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 17:29:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:Doesn't excuse other problems it is causing... GǪsuch as?
Like maybe the outbreak of server crashes since the TiDi release? Spreading outbreaks of system lagg reported from all over?
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |

Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
313
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 17:49:00 -
[70] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Lauren Hellfury wrote:and how would that help if you suddenly had 10 fleets?
artifical limits are easily avoided. hard limits = first there win. Node size + blue/red check + no neutrals allowed in. The point is is, you can have open-end resource-consuming batltles that may work as best as possible, but not necessarily well, or limited battles assured to work well within their allotted resources.
Abusable. You could just create a fake alliance and set standings in such a way that you can fill the system up with your fake "allies" who sit there and do nothing while your reds run rampant with nobody to oppose them thanks to traffic control.
Trust me, there is no better solution than Time Dilation short of starting over from scratch - which would kill CCP, btw, as they would have to take down the servers for several years while the rewrite the game from the ground up to support multithreading.
EDIT: Not to mention that multithreading has limited usefulness unless your algorithms are "embarrasingly parallel", which EVE is not. |

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
52
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 18:00:00 -
[71] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Tres Farmer wrote:... Now Zleon, with that knowledge and given parameters to work with - how is CCP supposed to just TiDi a single thread on a node which is overloaded?
PS: no, as I said earlier.. they can't pull threads from the node to mildly reinforce it yet, as the pleyers would be disconnected. 'Cause the problem is the one thread (or probably at most 3 threads) causing the overload, not the entire node. So dilate the one thread and there you go... there is no reason to hit an entire node with TiDi. This issue is closely related to design simulations done in the engineering community - time scaling and microtime problems have been worked on for years in EDA. Maybe CCP needs to consult with them. Won't be so easy.. Before TiDi kicks in the processing capacity of that node is driven to ~100%.. So every thread on that node suddenly is capping out and needs to increase it's loop to be able to process all requests. And this isn't a once in a lifetime event.. the overload doesn't happen only once and then all the 1400 are in the same system.. The overload builds up in steps and TiDi is being applied several times.. with increasing loop times. All threads on that node will suffer a similar fate..
Although the not overloaded threads should revert back to TiDi = 1 faster than the overloaded one. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4494
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 18:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Like maybe the outbreak of server crashes since the TiDi release? Spreading outbreaks of system lagg reported from all over? It excuses them just fine.
The odd crash when something like this rolls out on the live server is pretty much to be expected. The GÇ£outbreaks of lagGÇ¥ were most likely there all along (so no outbreak) GÇö it's just that now, we have a nice little meter to show that it's there.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |

ShadowandLight
Mostly Always Dangerous Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
48
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:08:00 -
[73] - Quote
Time Dilation was the best, most fair way for everyone to be playing on the same level field.
How the server used to work was allowing some people full access to firing / module usage while others were stuck in limbo.
Now, everyone gets a fair chance to participate. |

Rasz Lin
43
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 01:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I would suggest if you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk.
Sadly I know what im talking about. And Indahmawar Fazmarai I mean server , not client.
-Every SOL is running IN ONE THREAD ON ONE CORE (usually more SOLs on one core, unless its reinforced system).
-You cant partition load on few cores, you cant even divide SOL into grids so if there are 10 battles in one SOL they ALL run in ONE THREAD ON ONE CORE. -There is no mechanism for live migration, CCP cant just freeze SOL and migrate it to another core :/ It should be easy now that they figured out time dilation - freezing is just slowing time to infinity :)
Sarina Rhoda wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong but time dilation wasn't created to fix lag..... Time dilation was introduced to make fights fairer under extreme lag conditions. Previously the server would just randomly accept some peoples commands while completely ignoring other peoples. This meant some people were able to fight as if there was nothing wrong whilst other people were completely locked out.
Time dilation was simply a method of slowing everything down so that the server has a fair chance and processing everyone's commands.
not server, one THREAD bound to ONE cpu core :((( Instead of letting server compute more of the battle they are throttling the battle to "fit" on one CPU.
Zleon Leigh wrote:TiDi is implemented because there does not exist a hardware solution that will handle the computation load and also the time of flight problem across the net.
Not true, There are FPS games (for example Mount And Blade Warband) currently that run smooth with >200 players bashing each other with melee/thrown/shooting weapons in the face. With server tick time 0.1sec (means steps per second stuff is updated server side). Eve has server tick time 1sec so by extrapolating those FPS games could handle 2000 FPS players at 1sec tick, all unning around, changing directions, waving melee weapons, hitting each other, shooting at each other, all on one map. EVE doesnt really have directions, when it comes to calculating tracking it doesnt matter where your ship is pointing. EVE is EASY compared to FPS engines, all you need to worry is position and status of incoming/outgoing damage.
+There was an example of optimisation on dev blog ~year ago that showcased some piece of code that was O(n2) for every missile shot (or just object in space, dont rememer). There are still monsters like that in the code. Stupid client side example - EVERY TIME session changes (jump/undock) your ASSET window is drawn at least 3 times. -First it is initialized from some dataset in the memory, drawn with default alphabetical order of items. - then it is REINITIALIZED and sorted according to your selection. - then it is AGAIN reinitialized and drawn with remembered positions and station item trees open/closed.
Whole GUI was refactored, yet it is still inefficient and is redrawing parts of the screen that dont change at all, it seems nothing is being kept in buffers, compositioning just doesnt exist. You open Market screen and it will call GPU EVERY frame drawing every single font one by one instead of generating that window ONCE into a bitmap buffer and just using it untill something changes. Even Android finally uses proper compositioning and only redraws part of the screen that change - GUI in your phone is smarter than GUI in this game :)
They are working on those things, just toooo slow. There was a time Market was running on same cpu core as the rest of the system, afaik now there are dedicated market nodes. Next step would be enabling separate grids to run on different cores and live migration between CPU cores, preferably over the network so they could migrate them between servers and not only between cpus on same machine. Of course best case scenario would be rewritting "battle code" into something MULTITHREADED so one big battle can use more than one CPU on a Node (nodes are multi CPU, CPUs have HT) dividing load. Calculating distances, misses, damages, movements, it could all be multithreaded and done at the same time instead of doing it in sequence.
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Ascendic
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
42
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 02:02:00 -
[75] - Quote
Milli Sanchez wrote:Currently fighting in 92D. 1260 in local and dilation is so bad I cant lock anything.  Dilation is FAIL. This is NOT fun and simply not worth participating in big fleet PvP anymore. CCP stop thinking up awesome technical work arounds and fix the #$% game.
Is this how people try to cover up the fact they suck at PVP, make GD rage threads about not being able to lock because of something that does the complete opposite and allows you to lock?
Maybe they should just take away your TD and you can have this nice black screen instead!
Enjoy! |

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
54
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 02:12:00 -
[76] - Quote
Rasz Lin wrote:*snip*
They are working on those things, just toooo slow. There was a time Market was running on same cpu core as the rest of the system, afaik now there are dedicated market nodes. ... As for the 'too slow part'.. by know everybody should know that the last 3-4 years had been not very optimal for CCP in regards to resource usage. Just read the last bit of the last minutes.. doesn't sound like this company was running well organised. Let's hope it's becoming better now and Core does some good stuff next..
Rasz Lin wrote:... Next step would be enabling separate grids to run on different cores and live migration between CPU cores, preferably over the network so they could migrate them between servers and not only between cpus on same machine. Of course best case scenario would be rewritting "battle code" into something MULTITHREADED so one big battle can use more than one CPU on a Node (nodes are multi CPU, CPUs have HT) dividing load. Calculating distances, misses, damages, movements, it could all be multithreaded and done at the same time instead of doing it in sequence. I wish there was a new Dev blog about this.. just some small talk about concept stuff to wet our appetite, ya know?  I mean, they must have some ideas already about multi-threading vs physics simulations.
|

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
744
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 03:01:00 -
[77] - Quote
Sadly op fails to realize that eve advances faster than hardware can keep up. |

Opertone
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 03:05:00 -
[78] - Quote
please fix lag and combat altogether.
Introduce new Area of Effect weapons, which instantly finishes blobs. If someone blobs and stands still, weapons of mass destruction can hit the centre of the blob and wipe them out.
Pilots will have to think smaller, maneuverable groups. |

Spineker
113
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 03:12:00 -
[79] - Quote
I think the one person meant BLOBulance.
Epeen tears please continue we love them. |

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
55
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 03:21:00 -
[80] - Quote
Opertone wrote:please fix lag and combat altogether.
Introduce new Area of Effect weapons, which instantly finishes blobs. If someone blobs and stands still, weapons of mass destruction can hit the centre of the blob and wipe them out.
Pilots will have to think smaller, maneuverable groups. Didn't everybody just come to the fight with ships that can take the WoMDs -the last time this was the 'motd'?
Also, afaik the current objectives don't support/prefer small, mobile groups.. and I don't see CCP addressing this yet. Things that play a role for this: - ease of travel cyno/jumpbridges vs gates - hitpoints of structures - local chat as intel tool - income sources in low/null too risky for soloers (so they don't try or better they already got wiped out) - hotdrops |

Menrith Hadel
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 06:21:00 -
[81] - Quote
Opertone wrote:please fix lag and combat altogether.
Introduce new Area of Effect weapons, which instantly finishes blobs. If someone blobs and stands still, weapons of mass destruction can hit the centre of the blob and wipe them out.
Pilots will have to think smaller, maneuverable groups. Also, they should be able to be fired through cynos. |

Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
276
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 06:25:00 -
[82] - Quote
Menrith Hadel wrote:Opertone wrote:please fix lag and combat altogether.
Introduce new Area of Effect weapons, which instantly finishes blobs. If someone blobs and stands still, weapons of mass destruction can hit the centre of the blob and wipe them out.
Pilots will have to think smaller, maneuverable groups. Also, they should be able to be fired through cynos.
Hmmmmmmm... I see what you did there... 
|

Callous Jade
Narcissistic Ventures
14
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 06:47:00 -
[83] - Quote
Milli Sanchez wrote:Currently fighting in 92D. 1260 in local and dilation is so bad I cant lock anything.  Dilation is FAIL. This is NOT fun and simply not worth participating in big fleet PvP anymore. CCP stop thinking up awesome technical work arounds and fix the #$% game.
Protip: Your PC sucks. Do better. |

Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
499
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 10:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
They just invested heavily in a new farm. But I think eventually they are going to have to multi core the server code. I understand that so far they have not done that? - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |

Avid Bumhumper
Furian Necromongers
19
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 18:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
Xirin wrote:Gee, I was able to lock people and the system was down to 10%. Stop whining. Everyone but you thinks time dilation is an excellent solution to reducing the EFFECTS of lag (since there's no way to remove lag completely, stop telling them to "fix the game" when players keep finding new and creative ways to break it) 
Here's to noob who assumes that everyone had the same experience.....
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
944

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Posted - 2012.01.23 19:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
Please keep actual and constructive feedback about Time Dilation in this thread, thank you.
Thread locked. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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