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Invention: Use a ship as base item or not

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Rimhawk Caldari Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.10.01 09:47:00 - [1] I was wondering about the general opinion of using ships as base items during invention. I've been reading up on it, but there seem to be differences of opinion What I haven't been able to find is truly empirical data in significant quantities... So the question is: 1. In your opinion, does using a base T1 ship to the invention job have a meaningful effect (or in other words, is it worth the trouble)? 2. Does anyone (for example someone who does a lot of T2 invention) have statistics on the rate of success with and without a T1 ship as the base item? And if so, does it make a difference? .
Braaage eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.10.01 10:12:00 - [2] I had one of the CCP Devs/Staff (Veritech) laugh at me on IRC for using a ship as a base item in invention. Reason why not to use it.... it spirals the invention cost a bucketload. -- eve-guides.com POS, Outpost and Sovereignty info Now includes setting up POSs in Empire
Rimhawk Caldari Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.10.01 10:54:00 - [3] I gathered as much since they have meta level 0, but does that mean they have no effect on the resulting BPC whatsoever? And if there is an affect, does it only improve quality or does it also add to the chance of a succesful invention run? Given the cost of BS or BC's I can imagine the cost would be prohibitive for BS invention, but would it be worthwhile for, say, T2 frig or cruiser invention? .
Aykido Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2007.10.01 11:12:00 - [4] If there is any effect it is marginal, raising a low chance by neglible amount. Maybe a 10% chance becomes 10,5% chance, or a 60% chance becomes 63% chance if a meta 0 item is used in module invention. No empirical data seems to exist in statistical significant numbers to see for sure if there is any difference. With a sample of less than a few hundred of each the margin of error is greater than this (possibly maybe 5%) increase of the chance of success. Selling PERFECT PRINTS of every seeded T1 BPO: modules, rigs, drones, ammo and ships (4 ships missing), and most capital modules too! Selling any INVENTED T2 BPC by order! Can build also!
Liam Money Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:56:00 - [5] It would really be nice if CCP just came out and said, "hey meta 0 items do not help your invention". I mean I know this is hard for CCP to do, cause ya know the whole typing of 1 sentence thing.
Abbadon Wrath Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:11:00 - [6] what happens when you add 0?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.02 02:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Liam Money It would really be nice if CCP just came out and said, "hey meta 0 items do not help your invention". I mean I know this is hard for CCP to do, cause ya know the whole typing of 1 sentence thing. You'd think you'd be able to figure that one out on your own... 0*anything=0, and that's the bonus for adding a metalevel 0 item. _ Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting...
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.10.02 06:45:00 - [8] Ships AFAIK are actually meta level 1 unlike modules that start @ 0. The same, it's going to depend on the cost of the ship vs the chance increase vs the cost of the datacores+decrpyors now won't it ;) Logic says an expensive ship = no ! mid priced ship = probably. Frig or something like that 30k extra ? Probably worth it.
maarud Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.02 07:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Admiral Nova Ships AFAIK are actually meta level 1 unlike modules that start @ 0. The same, it's going to depend on the cost of the ship vs the chance increase vs the cost of the datacores+decrpyors now won't it ;) Logic says an expensive ship = no ! mid priced ship = probably. Frig or something like that 30k extra ? Probably worth it. No, they're Meta Level 0 Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Svanna Gulmi	Posted - 2007.10.02 08:25:00 - [10] Well i've been doing mod invention for a good few months now, at first i was using best meta items in the process which was bloody expensive when doing 10mn MWD's so i gave up using them and i have hardly ANY difference, and i'm talking hundreds of invention jobs and maybe it's 45% success instead of 48% Ship invention i've just started and so far i have 2 x 5run bustard bpc's from: 5 jobs using max run badger II copies and instalation guide 0 success 5 jobs of max run kestral copies using interface alignement chart. tbh i rerally didnt expect that last job to go so badly, but there ya go.... maybe i should give up using max run copies, they are really time consuming to make and for an extra run, i don't know... what you think? I belive that using a minimal run bpc will give you 4 instead of 5 when using instalation guide.
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.10.02 09:27:00 - [11] Edited by: Kur''Dekaija on 02/10/2007 09:28:18 EDIT: Hmm didnt know that, anyone experienced any difference? Prolly some dudes out there done the test, share with us

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.10.02 10:18:00 - [12] The effect of adding a ML 4 item is very significant, the problem is its not cost effective to do it. Something that I would like to change personally as invention is really a misnomer as your not inventing anything and it should be more reverse engineering. As ever we like to evolve systems and that is the intention with invention though nothing specific is planned for kali 3 besides resolving multiple outcomes.

Rimhawk Caldari Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.10.02 10:55:00 - [13] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The effect of adding a ML 4 item is very significant, the problem is its not cost effective to do it. Something that I would like to change personally as invention is really a misnomer as your not inventing anything and it should be more reverse engineering. As ever we like to evolve systems and that is the intention with invention though nothing specific is planned for kali 3 besides resolving multiple outcomes. I don't know what CCP's policy is in this regard and I realize I may not get an answer, but I've been taught it never hurts to ask: Can you either confirm or deny that a meta level 0 object has an effect on invention? .
Sronesmasher	Posted - 2007.10.02 13:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Rimhawk Originally by: CCP Chronotis The effect of adding a ML 4 item is very significant, the problem is its not cost effective to do it. Something that I would like to change personally as invention is really a misnomer as your not inventing anything and it should be more reverse engineering. As ever we like to evolve systems and that is the intention with invention though nothing specific is planned for kali 3 besides resolving multiple outcomes. I don't know what CCP's policy is in this regard and I realize I may not get an answer, but I've been taught it never hurts to ask: Can you either confirm or deny that a meta level 0 object has an effect on invention? This is definately one instance where devs have an unfair advantage in the game. They know all the rules and formulas behind invention, and refuse to share it, and are, I am sure, laughing all the time at us trying to figure out the correct process. So, you can probably guess that your request for information will be met with either a f*ck you very much, or silence.
Corporati Capitalis Tollan Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.02 14:27:00 - [15] Originally by: Sronesmasher This is definately one instance where devs have an unfair advantage in the game. They know all the rules and formulas behind invention, and refuse to share it, and are, I am sure, laughing all the time at us trying to figure out the correct process. Yes, because the devs really need the unfair advantage they get by knowing all formulas. It's not like they could, you know, spawn stuff at will, if they so wanted to play unfair. WTS: Clue.
Sebastien LeReparteur Minmatar SpaceTravelers Freelance Corp	Posted - 2007.10.02 14:43:00 - [16] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The effect of adding a ML 4 item is very significant, the problem is its not cost effective to do it. Something that I would like to change personally as invention is really a misnomer as your not inventing anything and it should be more reverse engineering. As ever we like to evolve systems and that is the intention with invention though nothing specific is planned for kali 3 besides resolving multiple outcomes. You can trust CCP to be vague ands unhelpful.
Svanna Gulmi	Posted - 2007.10.02 16:37:00 - [17] Edited by: Svanna Gulmi on 02/10/2007 16:38:38 Ok well before this thread turns off the subject, can someone answer me this.... What is the affect of using a single run ship bpc i.e 1 run badger II instead of a 15 run bpc. Will it affect the chance or just the number of output runs? I have a number of these i've had kicking about for about 2 years but i don't know weather to use instalation guide or not... p.s actually i'd would like to know if putting a badger II into the invention would make any difference, come of devs giza clue
Sronesmasher	Posted - 2007.10.02 16:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Corporati Capitalis Originally by: Sronesmasher This is definately one instance where devs have an unfair advantage in the game. They know all the rules and formulas behind invention, and refuse to share it, and are, I am sure, laughing all the time at us trying to figure out the correct process. Yes, because the devs really need the unfair advantage they get by knowing all formulas. It's not like they could, you know, spawn stuff at will, if they so wanted to play unfair. WTS: Clue. Maybe you should buy that clue. Dev actions, like spawning items, are trackable. Advantages gained by knowing the behind the scenes info (i.e. what actually affects invention chance, and by how much) is not.
Sronesmasher	Posted - 2007.10.02 16:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Svanna Gulmi Edited by: Svanna Gulmi on 02/10/2007 16:38:38 Ok well before this thread turns off the subject, can someone answer me this.... What is the affect of using a single run ship bpc i.e 1 run badger II instead of a 15 run bpc. Will it affect the chance or just the number of output runs? I have a number of these i've had kicking about for about 2 years but i don't know weather to use instalation guide or not... p.s actually i'd would like to know if putting a badger II into the invention would make any difference, come of devs giza clue Kind of depends on how they round it. 1 out of 15 is a very small percentage. If they round up or round mathematically, you get 1 on success. If they round down, you're screwed.
Liam Money Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.02 21:38:00 - [20] Okay so which is it for ships are they meta level 1 or meta level 0, because I have seen conflicting statements here, and there is nothing on the ships description tab that says what its meta level is, and for mods that means 0. So is there any reference that all ships have a meta level of 1?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.02 22:58:00 - [21] Edited by: Akita T on 02/10/2007 23:05:27 T1 ships not having a metalevel listed might be either a bug or an oversight. Hence, T1 ships MIGHT have any metalevel between 0 and 4, we would not know. Only items with metalevel of 0 don't have metalevel listed. All are T1 items. Ships don't have a metalevel listed. And they are T1 items. Hence, T1 ships are metalevel 0. Unless the devs decide to change that soon. However, T2 variants of ship should have a metalevel of 5 listed then, but they don't. So we're back to square one. __ Unless a dev can CONFIRM T1 ships are NOT metalevel 0, we must assume they are metalevel 0. However, I doubt they will confirm wether a metalevel 0 item actually helps invention chances at all or not. So again, we might as well assume IT DOESN'T. Bottom line, DO NOT use T1 ships in ship invention. It's a waste of ISK anyway, even if they would be metalevel 1, and not 0 as they most probably are. Heck, probably would still be a waste for most jobs if they were metalevel 4. _ Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting...
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2007.10.03 06:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 02/10/2007 23:12:32 T1 ships not having a metalevel listed might be either a bug or an oversight. T1 ships MIGHT have any metalevel between 0 and 4, we would not know for sure. T2 variants of ship should have a metalevel of 5 listed then, but they don't. Well, not INGAME in the showinfo anyway, but in the data exports, they do have that listed in the "other" heading. Only items with metalevel of 0 don't have metalevel listed. All are T1 items. T1 ships don't have a metalevel listed anywhere (not in the data exports either). And they are T1 items. Hence, T1 ships are metalevel 0. Unless the devs decide to change that soon. __ So, again, unless a dev can CONFIRM T1 ships are NOT metalevel 0, we must assume they are metalevel 0. However, I doubt they will confirm wether a metalevel 0 item actually helps invention chances at all or not. So again, we might as well assume IT DOESN'T. Bottom line, DO NOT EVER use T1 ships in ship invention. It's a waste of ISK anyway, even if they would be metalevel 1, and not 0 as they most probably are. Heck, probably would still be a waste for most jobs even if they were metalevel 4. Or you could just check out a statistics book from your local library, collect some data, and be able to describe the effect of using ships in invention.
Aykido Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2007.10.03 07:10:00 - [23] I assume that using no base item reduces your chance. Perhaps -5% lower chance. Thus if you would succeed with a max run decryptor AND a built Kestrel as Base item 10% of the time, using no Kestrel as base item MIGHT lower your chance to 9,5%. Using a meta level 0 (normal T1, ships, named versions of basic items, etc) would have no other effect than to negate the penalty of not using any base item. Higher meta level would increase the chance. At least this is my theory and I find it probable that it is so. Therefore I use built Ships in ship invention if they cost less than a few hundred thousand isk. If the profit margin cant take the added costs of a mil or two extra for the average attempts needed to get a T2 BPC, then it is not worth inventing anyhow. Under No circumstance would I use a built BC, cruiser or Barge as base item for invention. Selling PERFECT PRINTS of every seeded T1 BPO: modules, rigs, drones, ammo and ships (4 ships missing), and most capital modules too! Selling any INVENTED T2 BPC by order! Can build also!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.03 09:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Dr Ming Or you could just check out a statistics book from your local library, collect some data, and be able to describe the effect of using ships in invention. If that was sarcasm, it was beyond my detector's trigger treshold. You'd have to be a bit more specific than that. _ Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting...
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2007.10.04 05:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 03/10/2007 09:36:29 Originally by: Dr Ming Or you could just check out a statistics book from your local library, collect some data, and be able to describe the effect of using ships in invention. If that was sarcasm, it was beyond my detector's trigger treshold. You'd have to be a bit more specific than that. If you mean "just do a lot of inventions with and without a ship as base item and then come back to report stuff", then I'd suggest you pick up one of those statistics books yourself and figure out just how long would you have to KEEP inventing at the exact same skill levels and base chances BOTH with and without a ship, so to that a minimal increase in invention chance becomes "clearly visible" compared to just getting totally covered in "statistical noise". If you say so, Veruca Salt.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.04 05:43:00 - [26] Edited by: Akita T on 04/10/2007 05:56:35 Feel free to confuse knowledge with arrogance, it's your loss. What people keep saying is that using a metalevel 0 item (as opposed to no item) DOES NOT influence invention chance enough to make a noticeable difference even in a moderate series of tries. Not only that, but the fact that running huge numbers of IDENTICAL invention tasks (same skill levels, same inputs) and then plotting several different "streak length" still yield a fluctuating value, so a short streak of tries WITH a MetaLevel0 item is statistically WORTHLESS. If you have grounds to claim otherwise, feel free to back your claims with facts. But don't expect lenience if your "facts" show that you can't grasp basic statistics, yet throw that exact argument (ignorance) into people's faces. _ Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting...
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:23:00 - [27] I am happily inventing (not excessively mind ya) without items now and personally can't see any noticeable difference other than saving a lot of money. Amarr Mineral Index
Svanna Gulmi	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:04:00 - [28] TBH even if ships were meta 1 i'm not sure you'd want to use anything worth more than a few mill in the invention process, you'd need a much greater gain in using it to make say BC invention worth doing with base item. I've noticed VERY LITTLE difference in mod invention using no meta item at all. I'm doing some Frigate invention over the weekend so i'll see what happens.... First lot of 5 x max run kessi bpc's gave nothing atall that was using the max run watsit (techi term)

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