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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.02.19 10:28:00 -
[1]
As many of you know PIE has 10 active wars mostly with Minmatar terrorist factions.
As a result we have action most nights mainly in the central systems where we constantly bump into enemies.
Because of this we are worldy wise to the various 'multitude' of ways which you can innocently end up losing your ship to Concord during 'official' wars in Empire space.
Last night a substantial fleet of 8/9 Oracle pilots (the leading Minmatar terrorist Corp), who we are all at 'official' war with, turned up in Amarr in a fleet of battleships.
We hurriedly started assembling some ships to counter the terrorists and gathered around 10/11 assorted pilots from the CVA (an Amarrian only alliance) to tackle the Minmatars.
This took a bit of time and presumably the Oracle pilots had finished whatever it was they came to do so were heading for home.
We decided to give pursuit and jumped into Yulai gathering our forces at the Amarr gate. A scout reported the Minmatar fleet at the Pator gate.
Suddenly Oracle started warping in to the Yulai gate enmasse BUT coincidentally a minimal neg sec pilot who showed as a RED targeting reticle arrived at exactly the same time as the Oracle fleet (Orange targeting reticles).
Our forces at the gate were too much for the Oracle pilots who started warping out - some with severe damage... however in the heat of what was fairly substantial engagement a few of the CVA pilots locked and fired on the RED target which to them looked like an enemy.
As a result 1 Maller and 1 Apoc were lost to sentries.
Now you could say that people should know not to shoot RED in high sec space but THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN OFFICIAL NEWS ANNOUCMENT FROM CCP TO WARN PEOPLE OF THIS. Not everyone is forum ***** like me 
The PIE pilots knew from bitter experience not to lock RED and did not lose any ships but NOT EVERYONE READS THE FORUMS EVERYDAY OR ENGAGES in PvP EVERYDAY OR KNOWS EVERY DETAIL OF MINOR CHANGES BROUGHT IN BY CCP EVERY PATCH.
The fact is the RED/ORANGE targeting reticles are way too similar. In the midst of a 20 ship battle
it is all too easy to lock and fire on a RED target...
You could say it was a good experience - now they know better than to shoot RED - but should you have to lose ships to learn these things?
Einheriar Ulrich the Oracle CEO (not an inexperienced player in PvP) admitted that he locked and almost fired on the same RED target presuming it to be a CVA pilot - it is a VERY easy thing to do...
If a neg sec player shows as RED they should be minus 5 or under and therefore shootable ANYWHERE without CONCORD interference.
This RED reticle issue should be fixed as a matter of urgency otherwise fighting in Empire becomes almost a lottery.
I am not a carebear (well not much )- nor is PIE - we like PvP - but CCP needs to make sure people understand the whole security rating system. Talking about it in a dev blog or CSM chat just aint good enough!
RANT OVER
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.19 10:31:00 -
[2]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=56578
I'm gutted that you don't read all of my articles, Hardin 
I agree, though, the current color system sucks but it's all being addressed on the next patch.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Sin Ist
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Posted - 2004.02.19 10:36:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Sin Ist on 19/02/2004 10:37:33
Call me stupid or whatever but this seems like a no brainer to me.
Make people with -5 or worse red. make people with petty -.01 to -4.99 orange.
I am new but when i jump somewhere and I see a red guy it makes me think they are an enemy and I should be attacking them or be able to at least.
THis sounds like a joke almost in how they would implement colors to people. RED is bad and orange is not so bad. Green is good and nothing is neutral.
*smacks ccp WAKEUP!
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.02.19 10:41:00 -
[4]
Joshua - I had read your article and the PIE pilots did not shoot on the RED - but we cannot be expected to know the level of knowledge of all our allies...
The fact is it is confusing and am glad to hear that it is being changed...
Maybe as CCP admit there is a problem and are changing it they may recompense the ship losses... but somehow I doubt it...
I remember when we attacked pirate in corp we were at war with. He docked a few minutes after we engaged him changed corp and then warped back to us. I shoot - Concord owns my Geddon.
CCP say yes its kind of a ****ty thing and we are changing it next patch so people cant change corps so quick but TOUGH LUCK!
I guess that will be the response this time!
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Einheriar Ulrich
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Posted - 2004.02.19 10:55:00 -
[5]
Sorry to hear about your looses to such a mistake Hardin, Oracle broke of the engement right when we learned about this mishap.
Another thing that bothers me, is people interferring, we had some players, from imperial war academy, orbitting our bs , at very close range so they couldnt warp, and without any form of retaliation we could do nothing but try get away. Dm and me was harrased by these players, and it almost cost me my ship.
If CCP wants us to be able to fight in empire space, we need to be able to deal with this kind of harrashment ,not sure how though.
What this means is, that we cannot add flavour to the game, at least not in crowded systems, which is where we meet alot of times i.g yulai, Amarr and Pator.
Please if you see us, and are not at war with us, dont interferre, we cannot declare war on starter corps, if we could we would, to stop this kind of harrasment.
So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar.
****Minion Of VOTF****
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.02.19 11:52:00 -
[6]
Petition compensation for the lost ships. I think the ship loss is mainly of bad software design---CCP's fault, and they should rightly compensate.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Nepereta
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Posted - 2004.02.19 12:15:00 -
[7]
Perhaps you guys should agree apon certain no-fire zones as a work -around.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.19 14:05:00 -
[8]
"Petition compensation for the lost ships. I think the ship loss is mainly of bad software design---CCP's fault, and they should rightly compensate."
It's not even bad design, but case of misleading info probably coupled with a bug -- the patch notes state clearly:
"Ship bracket coloring has been changed. In order of priority: Gang member (blue), Same Corporation (green) or corporation warfare (orange), Corporation set standing (yellow/blue), Player set standing (yellow/blue), Outlaw (red)."
... and according to information given in settings of autoscanner, "outlaw" is a player with security rating of -5 or worse. Meaning, players are expicitly told by the game itself, that anything coloured red is free target in Empire space. So getting the ships returned should be a no-brainer, really. o.o
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toaster
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Posted - 2004.02.19 14:15:00 -
[9]
I think the point is 2 things...
1) why would someone that is higher than a -5 sec rating be singled out and identified in red? (thereby drawing fire many times)
2) If #1 is true, why would they make the colors so very similar to the orange or warring corps?
How about something like:
red = warring corps
yellow = those with -5 or worse sec rating
do away with 'outlaws' with better than a -5 rating
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Alien8
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Posted - 2004.02.19 14:19:00 -
[10]
This coloring system is not functioning properly, i had a sec status of 1.2 + a while back and still showed up as a red bracket on my own spy¦s screen. This i belive was due to the fact i was in a pirate corp at the time (and still am).
So don¦t trust the brackets 
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Nilkarus
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Posted - 2004.02.19 14:22:00 -
[11]
I believe there is a problem with the "Outlaw" marking on TQ at the moment. It seems if that person's corporation is lower than -5 standing to Concord, the entire corporation is marked as 'red' to everyone else. No matter what the rating is of the individual themself.
Movie Archive - Kill List |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.02.19 14:24:00 -
[12]
The red bracket thing is MISLEADING CCP!
Members of m0o who have POSITIVE security ratings are marked as red brackets but engaging them in battle in empire space will get CONCORD and sentries on your ass.
Whoever at CCP that thought of marking certain piratical/massmurdering corporations didn't think things through.
If the player is red he should be -5 and engaging him should mean NO CONCORD or anyone else butting in.
Bad call CCP, bad call. Fix it.
¼©¼
a history |
Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:32:00 -
[13]
It should really be dead simple.
Orange = War
Yellow = -0.3 - -4.9
Red = -5 and down
Green = corpmate
Blue = gangmate
This would effectively eliminate confusion and concequenses of firing upon a red square when engaged in warfare vs another corp.
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:45:00 -
[14]
My solution is to add a little bit of text under the icon just like the countdown you get when locking. If CONCORD would interfere then there'd be no text. If they wouldn't appear it would say one of "valid target: criminal", "valid target: war", "valid target: aggressor" or "valid target: AFK miner". After you locked on someone it would appear in the lock list at the top of the screen along with the range etc. I think it would be a simple, no-nonsense and straightforward way of dealing with it.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
kurg
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:53:00 -
[15]
yes gaius' colorordering makes sense as opposed to the current F-UP (cant really think of a better name for it?)
even the paranoid has real enemies...
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cypriss
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:57:00 -
[16]
Edited by: cypriss on 19/02/2004 17:59:06
i hear ya hardin...i found out the hard way as well, i was sitting at a gate hoping a warring corp memebr would warp in (i saw him in local) in comes a red square and i mistaked it for orange. needless to say i made a trip to a station in a pod.
this has to be fixed...now. howmany people have to lose their ship before it is fixed?
p.s i did petition this and never heard a reply
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Drunvalo
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Posted - 2004.02.19 20:02:00 -
[17]
i'm colorblind. make the colors black and white or i'll sue.
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John Blackthorn
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Posted - 2004.02.19 20:22:00 -
[18]
I think a simple solution would be the target would be red IF
1) you are in corp war with that person
or
2) person has -5 alingment which is free for all anyway.
That way you you know anyone that is red, can be fired upon.
Orange should be used for people -0.0 to -4.99
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Naz Farooq
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Posted - 2004.02.19 20:52:00 -
[19]
How hard would it be for a warning gump to pop up when you're in a CONCORD system and target someone who, if you fire on, will result in CONCORD intervention? How many newbs would avoid being griefed? How many experienced but confused players will be saved millions? Considering the dire consequences of firing on someone around CONCORD or sentry guns (sec hit, very good chance of being destroyed) why do we not have a check box in preferences for a warning gump? If I can refuse gang invites, why can I not refuse to fire on non-hostiles? Things like this are stupid and invite abuse and punish good players, please fix it.
Sure, everyone supports saving Einstein's brain, but when you put it in the body of a Great White Shark, suddenly you've "gone too far". |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.02.19 21:04:00 -
[20]
^ agreed.
should read: "concord will******you in secs if you proceed..."
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Shauna
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Posted - 2004.02.19 23:14:00 -
[21]
 Quote:
I believe there is a problem with the "Outlaw" marking on TQ at the moment. It seems if that person's corporation is lower than -5 standing to Concord, the entire corporation is marked as 'red' to everyone else. No matter what the rating is of the individual themself.
Yeah, I almost got burned by this earlier this week...
so, I fly around with my autoscanner running and have set the little flags to flash if someone nearby is an outlaw (-5 or worse security).
I'm at a 1.0 sec highway gate and there's this pirate guy in a frigate who had the flashing dot in my scanner... and he targeted my bship trolling for me to shoot at him and get concord to open up on me. Since I saw the flashing icon, I *almost* fired because how I have it set up, I should only see something flashing if I can shoot anywhere,anytime.
But it seemed pretty fishy, so I pulled up the guy's info and saw that his security was only -.4 or so... good thing I did since Concord would have definitely smeared me on that one. I have to wonder how many people weren't so cautious though.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.02.20 02:42:00 -
[22]
Dunno if this is possible, but how about:
Green: ally (corp member, gang member)
Blue: friendly (personal or corp standing >2.0)
White: neutral (-2.0 < standing < 2.0)
Yellow: unfriendly (standing < -2.0)
Orange: Criminal (negative security status)
Red: This person has locked on to you. (overridden by blue or green)
*Flashing* red: This person is a legitimate target (corporation at war, or security <-5.0)
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Skillz
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Posted - 2004.02.20 03:08:00 -
[23]
I have a better idea, you look at the corp ticker before you fire.
Keep on flaming, lamers.
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Aralis
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Posted - 2004.03.05 12:02:00 -
[24]
The current colouring system doesn't seem that illogical to me. But it doesn't work as advertised as many people have pointed out. Red doesn't mean what they say it means.
By the way despite the fact that this is a well known mistake CCPs response was that this was a client side error and no way could they compensate. (I was relieved to see people get compensated over the Zombie incident. Seems like CCP never compensate anyone for anything.)
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Alynthir
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Posted - 2004.03.05 12:08:00 -
[25]
Tyrell currently has seventeen active wars in empire. 
Since the last patch the scanner now has an option at the very bottom to check something along the lines of "Show if pilot is in a corp which your corp has a war with and you are allowed ot fire on him".
We have instructed all of our pilots to set up thier scanner to show a flashing orange icon in association with this check box. Since implementation, we have not lost a ship to CONCORD or sentry guns.
Give it a try. It sure saved me in Yulai a couple nights ago. 
_____
CLS Civil Affairs Bureau
"Permanent = Today's Plan."
Training: Noob Instructor Level 5  |
Elan
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Posted - 2004.03.05 12:52:00 -
[26]
Please change the colours, I'm a bit colour blind and can't tell the difference between the red and orange in use.
Four ships down in a month
Elan |
SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.03.05 13:29:00 -
[27]
set up your standings and scanner properly and lock from the scanner. I cant believe im hearing of people locking from the screen when its all so easy to lock a gate by mistake and get tuned up by the sentrys..
If your scanner is set up properly you can avoid this.. Im not saying your wrong in any way but if you insist on fighting in empire busy systems you really need to take a moment to set up the scanner properly.
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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