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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
51
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello fellow eve citizens,
The purpose of this thread is for us to pose questions, offer suggestions and debate issues regarding Shield Slave Sets (S3)
Recently in a capital ship balance thread (cba to find the link) a CCP developer made mention that they were considering changing the way shield bonuses worked especially when changing sessions. In that same post it was also revealed that CCP is also considering the introduction of implant set that is equivalent to slaves, but applies the bonus to shields, hence Slave Shield Set (here after "S3")
If CCP introduces S3 it will be a game changer. I will not waste time explaining why, but I do think CCP could benefit from hearing the community's thoughts and positions concerning S3 before they have already iterated on the matter. Recent history has shown that the CSM might be biased to only a part of the eve community and they most likely be the only group CCP asks for suggestions. By offering our thoughts and opinions now, it is my hope that we do not end up with something which only benefits a part of the eve.
I have no interest in controlling the format of this thread or you posts, but I will suggest a few leading questions which I think should be addressed in this thread:
* Will the introduction of S3 lead to the need to also introduce an armor crystal set?
* Should S3 replace crystal sets?
* Should the S3 be restricted to use on capital ships? (this will be a hotly contested one)
* How should S3 be introduced into the game? (LP store, exploration, rat drops, reverse engineering...etc)
* if introduced in the LP store, which store should sell it?
* What are some of the balancing issues this may present?
I am hoping this thread generates lots of input and perhaps a few well reasoned debates. I am also CCP will follow it and find it informative while they work on a final solution.
So please,
Discuss! Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
51
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Okay, I'll go first.
* Will the introduction of S3 lead to the need to also introduce an armor crystal set?
I do not know, but the thought crossed my mind that this might be a solution for Gallente blaster boats. Recent announced changes to null optimal range make s it much harder to kite blaster ships. An armor crystal set might be the icing on the cake? I dunno but it will be fun hearing your opinions.
* Should S3 replace crystal sets?
I do not think so.
* Should the S3 be restricted to use on capital ships? (this will be a hotly contested one)
I will not pretend to know the answers here. Balance is a tricky subject. I am hoping the forum heavy hitters will break out their nerdly spread sheets and fight about it. My untrained eye says let all ship use them, but meh
* How should S3 be introduced into the game? (LP store, exploration, rat drops, reverse engineering...etc)
I kinda like the idea of reverse engineering or exploration to get a BPC. Make this BPC require crystal implants plus other materials as an input to produce the new set. If done this way, it could also be a way to upgrade other existing sets down the road without having to introduce new lp stores everytime a new implant is created.
* if introduced in the LP store, which store should sell it?
Guristas? Have no idea that is why I made the suggestion above.
* What are some of the balancing issues this may present?
Tacos!
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Lili Lu
144
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ok, valid subject for a new thread here. However, not the way to make an OP for a thread -
1. As an OP you should be arsed to find the dev post to which you are referring.
2. You obviously wanted to present your own opinions as apparently you couldn't be arsed to wait for responses. Of course maybe because the OP wasn't well presented you weren't getting them.
3. what was three, the department of commerce? Oops.
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Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
143
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
* Will the introduction of S3 lead to the need to also introduce an armor crystal set? I think an "armor crystal" set will and should be added out of fairness.
* Should S3 replace crystal sets? No. Why even consider this? Crystals are used and in demand and will continue to be. There is no reason to remove them.
* Should the S3 be restricted to use on capital ships? (this will be a hotly contested one) No, capital only pirate implants would be stupid. In case you mean "allowed to affect capitals" then yes of course, capitals are the reason why S3 will be introduced.
* How should S3 be introduced into the game? (LP store, exploration, rat drops, reverse engineering...etc) Same sources as other pirate implants.
* if introduced in the LP store, which store should sell it? I'm not familiar with LP store offers, but one that currently only offers low demand items would make sense.
* What are some of the balancing issues this may present? The obvious balancing issue would be passive shield tanks, which is easily remedied by a penalty to shield recharge equal to the bonus to shield amount. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
51
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Ok, valid subject for a new thread here. However, not the way to make an OP for a thread -
1. As an OP you should be arsed to find the dev post to which you are referring.
2. You obviously wanted to present your own opinions as apparently you couldn't be arsed to wait for responses. Of course maybe because the OP wasn't well presented you weren't getting them.
3. what was three, the department of commerce? Oops.
I agree that I could have done a better job then my original post. I am ashamed by my lack of energy and effort.
I made my suggestions right after my first post (check the time) there was no waiting for others.
I would appreciate hearing your views on the matter. Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Lili Lu
144
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote: I agree that I could have done a better job then my original post. I am ashamed by my lack of energy and effort.
I made my suggestions right after my first post (check the time) there was no waiting for others.
I would appreciate hearing your views on the matter.
Ok Please find us the link first though. Hard to respond without that. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
51
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Patri Andari wrote: I agree that I could have done a better job then my original post. I am ashamed by my lack of energy and effort.
I made my suggestions right after my first post (check the time) there was no waiting for others.
I would appreciate hearing your views on the matter.
Ok Please find us the link first though. Hard to respond without that.
Done
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Kessiaan
Greater Order Of Destruction Happy Endings
41
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Posted - 2012.01.22 16:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
My implant set now is structured around turret DPS (have one clone for hybrids, another for projectiles). It's a bit cheaper than LG slaves but not a whole lot.
If this goes through I'll definitely set up a 3rd JC with a LG shield slave set. I fly in nothing but shield gangs these days. Tons more shield HP + logis + gang links? Yes please, I will take some of that, even if I do have trade a bit of DPS and range. My killboard - http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kessiaan |
Lili Lu
144
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Posted - 2012.01.22 17:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
OK, thanks. I will quote what was said for this thread
CCP Tallest wrote: I also want to tell you that there are other very valid concerns that we will be looking into, but they will not make it into the November release. We don't have the solutions to all of these, but as I said, we will to try to find solutions to these issues after the November release.
* Shield leadership bonus should work like an armor bonus and not require recharging shields after every jump. * Capital ships cyno bumping/bouncing issue * XL missiles explosion radius and explosion velocity * There needs to be a shield HP implant set as a counterbalance to the Slave set. * There needs to be a remote shield boost implant like the 'Gentry' ZEX2000 is for armor * There need to be deadspace shield invulnerability fields equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules
That quote is from November 10, 2011 it looks like. The issues are not necessarily promises to change/introduce new things to the game, but things they will look into. Shield slave sets are not promised.
The first and last bullet items have been/are being addressed/introduced. As for the others in between including the one you made the subject of your thread there does not appear to be any introduction coming "soon" unless someonelse noticed something in a recent dev blog.
So many considerations with this because the tanking systems have always been different. Armor does not regen, that is why there are slaves, they simply provide more buffer. If there were a shield slave set I would think not only there should be a reduction in shield regen rate for wearing them but it should be no regen. Popping a shield slave set on a supercarrier could lead not only to huge ehp buff but it would also be compounded by shield regen considering the amount of time it takes to chew through supercap hp for any sized fleet.
So ok, if a shield slave set were introduced the drawback should be no regen on that shield. You trade buffer for the regen, so it operates like armor slaves do. You can still fit a shield repper if you think the buffer alone will not be sufficient for your tanking purposes. And with that drawback I do not see any reason to restrict their use to any sizes of ships.
As for armor crystals being introduced, well sure it would only be fair, and active armor tanks are hardly overpowered.
As for replacing crystal sets, will never happen that way. CCP is loathe to remove completely items from the game. If only for the practicle reason that it leads to too much weeping, pulling hair, and gnashing of teeth among the portion of the player base that used the items in questions. Nerfs on the other hand while also eliciting a similar response are to be expected. It's in the Eula I'm sure (:whistles: yeah I've read an memorized the whole thing) or should be common knowledge for any mmo player that in-game items are always subject to alteration - "pray that I don't alter them further"
As for how (if they do in fact get introduced into the game) I really don't care much. But probably a pirate faction would get them either as available in npc 0.0 mission lp store or drops from their suicide squads that we all decimate every day. Basically however slave implants enter the game it would be the same way (never bothered to investigate how slave sets enter the game other than contracts). |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
275
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Posted - 2012.01.22 17:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote: (never bothered to investigate how slave sets enter the game other than contracts).
sansha lp store |
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
110
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Posted - 2012.01.22 18:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
It's better to revert Slaves so that they work like Crystals. The game is already way too overtanked. Just saying 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
51
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Posted - 2012.01.22 19:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:It's better to revert Slaves so that they work like Crystals. The game is already way too overtanked. Just saying
You would be in favor of simply changing slaves to be active tanking only? Had not thought of that option. It seems so simple there must be a hole there somewhere.
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
143
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Posted - 2012.01.22 19:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:It's better to revert Slaves so that they work like Crystals. The game is already way too overtanked. Just saying You would be in favor of simply changing slaves to be active tanking only? Had not thought of that option. It seems so simple there must be a hole there somewhere.
How about the people who are using slaves and like them as they are?
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
52
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Posted - 2012.01.22 21:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Patri Andari wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:It's better to revert Slaves so that they work like Crystals. The game is already way too overtanked. Just saying You would be in favor of simply changing slaves to be active tanking only? Had not thought of that option. It seems so simple there must be a hole there somewhere. How about the people who are using slaves and like them as they are?
Same as any other time CCP has changed implants. They magically yank them out of your head and place them in your hangar.
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Khrage
72
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Posted - 2012.01.22 21:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
shields have crystals, armor has slaves. shields work better for smaller gangs, armor works better for larger ones. working as intended - aka there is a reason why CCP chose to do this in the first place, it's not like they forgot. |
Brutor Slavechild 1039248223
0
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Posted - 2012.01.22 21:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:It's better to revert Slaves so that they work like Crystals. The game is already way too overtanked. Just saying
This. Adjusting amarr dominance in the cap department and buffing gallente active tankers in one fel swoop. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
111
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Posted - 2012.01.22 22:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:It's better to revert Slaves so that they work like Crystals. The game is already way too overtanked. Just saying
I was going to chime in with just giving Slaves the same "Doesn't work on capitals" attribute, but that works too. |
Julius Priscus
The Logistical Nightmare
0
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Posted - 2012.01.23 07:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
if ccp introduces a shield version of the slave set they need to think carefully
1st an extra 53.x% shields will make passive tanks expedentually stronger, as we all know... shields have a recharge rate.
the bonuses for a LG set should be 16.02% the bonuses for a HG set should be 24.73%
this wsould not make then insanely op. i do admit it will make ships that passive tank such as the rattler that much more better
where should they come from? simple mordus headhunters.
for the armour version of crystal implants? Khanid? **** knows. |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
21
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Posted - 2012.01.23 07:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
My main concern with this "Slave Shield Set" is the massive growth to passive tank as others have suggested, especially if recharge rates remain the same. |
Lilith Aurilien
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.01.23 11:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
No, don't want em.
Lets keep armour and shield tanking different please. Next it'll be shield EANMs, armour invulneraility fields and crystals for armour....boring.
The suggestion of Shield slaves was (mainly) an attempt to balance the super carriers, the problem being the huge ehp of the armour moms when using slaves when compared to the shield moms (the Hel has its own issues too).
A far simpler and more elegant solution is to make armour slaves not work on capitals. |
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Earths SpaceTraveler
Domination.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.23 12:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Quote: A far simpler and more elegant solution is to make armour slaves not work on capitals.
ore capital shield slaves.
It looks like me a compremise is alreaddy made, whit the new invuls there will be the same ore more shield HP while less isk payed. A 2x heated Estemel invul ship should have around the same HP as a 2x a-type membrance + slaves. And whit the risk of loosing them not many none supers will use them for pvp.
Conclusion: don't worry ore get hig hopes up for shield slaves. |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Narwhals Ate My Duck
111
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Posted - 2012.01.23 12:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
The correct solution is to remove slaves from the game, not add shield 'slaves'. That or make them work like crystals. |
Relnala
Event.Horizon Flatline.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
The problem you run into is "balancing" without just changing the balance around.
Things to keep in mind:
Invulns, even the ones currently in the game, especially the new deadspace ones coming out, offer better resists than bonused deadspace EANMs. Caldari Navy Invulns (400mil, 37.5%) offer a higher resist bonus than Corpum A-Type EANMs with all comps to 5 (1.25bil, 35.39%). These new A-type invulns coming offer SIGNIFICANTLY more (46.88%, unknown what pricing will settle out to).
Shield titans have the advantage of being able to fit damage mods in the low without sacrificing as much tank as an armor titan would. (Hardeners > Caldari Navy PDS)
The BIGGEST drawback to shield capitals is already being fixed in the next patch, which is a HUGE bonus. (I'm referring to the way gang bonii apply to shields)
Some of the Hel / Ragnarok issues were somewhat balanced by them receiving a lesser nerf.
Shield supers can fit other implant sets, like nomads and snakes, which offer their utility advantages like warping / moving significantly faster than armor titans.
Shield supers have passive regen. I know this doesn't seem like a lot, but over the course of a protracted engagement, if you dont basically get alpha'ed by doomsday, this can account for a fairly significant amount of tank.
Compare the following, fit for full tank with slaves for armor, KYA/KVA3000s for shield, no gang bonii:
Erebus: 35.7mil EHP Avatar: 43.2mil EHP Leviathan: 46.6mil EHP Ragnarok: 43.3mil EHP
The most SIGNIFICANT differences you see here is not an issue with the tank itself, its the fact that the armor titans have no tank mods to fit in the mids, so they get utility slots. So lets assume 2x damage mods on the shield titans to make up for the TCs and etcs they're missing.
Erebus: 35.6mil Avatar: 43.2mil Leviathan: 41.8mil Ragnarok: 38.9 mil
How about 4x damage mods:
Leviathan: 37.5mil Ragnarok: 34.9mil
Personally I think the biggest issue right now amongst the supercapitals is the fact that citadel missiles are absolutely terrible at hitting anything but POSes, basically. I also think that Leviathans should get that utility high for a smartbomb or bridge on their combat fit.
On a side note, a rant about perception of titans and supercarriers.
Personally, I think 100-110bil isk ship (per forum values, fitted the way that people complain about) ought to be able to hit battleships to some degree, so I don't think titan tracking is a major issue now that remote TCs have been nerfed.
It seems to me that everyone wants titans and supercarriers to be completely defenseless against anything but other capitals, which seems kinda crazy that the most expensive ship type (yall say cost shouldnt effect balance, but it does. Cost is why they are a few hundred titans in the game, not 20,000) in the game would be unable to potentially escape a terrible fiery death to a kitchen sink fleet or be completely unable to harm 95% of the ships in EVE. I mean, at least they don't AOE doomsday anymore.
The fact is, you make an "endgame" ship type, you're gonna have to make it powerful to some degree so that people desire to obtain one, as well as have reason to use them in actual combat so that the potential for getting a super killmail exists as well. Personally, I would've left the game a long time ago if it had been only battleship fleets wailing back and forth to no avail the past few years of my career. The inherent flaw here is that EVE has no system to "uptier" like most MMOs rely on to recycle content and make too-powerful, hard to obtain items obsolete by raising the level cap or whatever. EVE does have the ability to destroy things, but the real debate is: How hard should it be to destroy the culmination of someone's EVE career? |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
114
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Posted - 2012.01.23 15:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
No one denies one's right to grind for a huge pile of crap called titans and then watch them like last penny, but the thing is: their use should be restricted to sov warfare only:
No warp drive
Travelling via tech2 cyno only. That cyno can be deployed only at the vicinity of POS or stations.
No portaling beyond vicinity of POS'es or stations
Problem solved.
Either that, or make them balanced with regular means.
No EW-immunity
Sane EHP
Portaling works with proper restrictions (like spool-up etc.) 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
52
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Posted - 2012.01.24 01:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:No one denies one's right to grind for a huge pile of crap called titans and then watch them like last penny, but the thing is: their use should be restricted to sov warfare only: No warp drive Travelling via tech2 cyno only. That cyno can be deployed only at the vicinity of POS or stations. No portaling beyond vicinity of POS'es or stations Problem solved. Either that, or make them balanced with regular means. No EW-immunity Sane EHP Portaling works with proper restrictions (like spool-up etc.)
Remember, we are discussing the slave shield implants not cap ship balance in general in this thread. There already exist a thread on cap ship balance.
Please stay on topic.
kthanks
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Relnala
Event.Horizon Flatline.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.24 03:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:No one denies one's right to grind for a huge pile of crap called titans and then watch them like last penny, but the thing is: their use should be restricted to sov warfare only: No warp drive Travelling via tech2 cyno only. That cyno can be deployed only at the vicinity of POS or stations. No portaling beyond vicinity of POS'es or stations Problem solved. Either that, or make them balanced with regular means. No EW-immunity Sane EHP Portaling works with proper restrictions (like spool-up etc.) Remember, we are discussing the slave shield implants not cap ship balance in general in this thread. There already exist a thread on cap ship balance. Please stay on topic. kthanks
Shield slaves are intrinsically linked with existing and future supercap balance...
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Renarla
13
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Posted - 2012.01.24 03:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Relnala wrote:Patri Andari wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:No one denies one's right to grind for a huge pile of crap called titans and then watch them like last penny, but the thing is: their use should be restricted to sov warfare only: No warp drive Travelling via tech2 cyno only. That cyno can be deployed only at the vicinity of POS or stations. No portaling beyond vicinity of POS'es or stations Problem solved. Either that, or make them balanced with regular means. No EW-immunity Sane EHP Portaling works with proper restrictions (like spool-up etc.) Remember, we are discussing the slave shield implants not cap ship balance in general in this thread. There already exist a thread on cap ship balance. Please stay on topic. kthanks Shield slaves are intrinsically linked with existing and future supercap balance...
I want my name back. |
Trinkets friend
Obstergo NEM3SIS.
108
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Posted - 2012.01.24 04:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Relnala wrote: said things
Relnala wrote:
said stuffs
Massive facetious response. Look at, firstly, the EM resist on shields. Invuls need that resist benefit over EANM's because of the EM hole. Secondly, outside of capitals, Invuls take a significant amount of cap to run - EANM's do not.
DPS on Titans is mostly irrelevant, as they are out-DPSed by supercarriers. This point also addresses why there are so many more supercarriers than Titans; people use the Titan for bridging and assassinating key assets of the opponent's fleets (HICs, Logis, Carriers, etc) early in the engagement. To survive long enough to use the DD twice, you need EHP, which the armor titans have in spades.
The fix to the command bonus to shields is useful for much, much more than Titans. It is ridiculous that you invest in a Vulture with mindlink, and you're fine as long as you are defensive with your shields topped up. Hop a gate and your tank suffers 25%, meaning your expensive kit is useless. Yes, this redresses an imbalance, but it does not mean shield ships are OP now. In fact, it removes a massive handicap.
I will also be intrigued to see if they fix the shield drop upon entering a Pulsar system, and if they fix the empty shield problem when boarding a buffer shield ship in a wormhole.
Luls, snake titan nano-rag? You have got to be kidding. This is true of armour titans anyway - you don't HAVE to run high-grade slaves.
Now, I do agree that a shield slave set will require some thought with the passive regen effect you get from higher buffer. On supers it will not affect their survivability in big battles - it will simply make them harder to take down by smaller gangs which can't break their passive tank. However, this does ignore the fact that before an armour titan's real tank is tested, you still have to get through its shields. This is a key issue when comparing shield and armour ships generally - when a shield buffer is busted, its impossible to recover the tank.
My opinions on the matter of shield vs armour tanking, and shield slaves, are these: - Tengus will gain an uncommonly large advantage with shield slave sets; already you can top 110-120K EHP with buffer Tengus. Hopping it up another 15-20%+ with implants will make these ships ridiculous. Yes, you may have to dump 2.5Bn into the ship and impant set to make it so, but people do that already, so cost is no barrier. Add in a mindlinked Vulture or boosting Tengu, and....yeah. - CCP has a lot of work to do with its faction and deadspace modules, making them cost effective from LP's, making them actually worth having, and in some cases (eg; small shield transporters) making them able to actually be fitted. For instance, all the deadspace and faction shield transporters at the moment are crap and unfittable. So change in this regard is welcome. - Armour crystal sets will be fine. To be honest, the ONLY things it will really affect are triage Archons and Triage nidhoggurs, and the very, very few people who fly Hyperions into gatecamps and play station games with Vindicators sporting dual A-type reppers. There's no saving a sieged dread with Instinct and crystals. It will die if its going to die - your survival depends on when you hit siege and whether or not you can DPS the enemy down and avoid being pointed when you come out. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu
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Batelle
HOMELE55 FORECLOSURE.
2
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Posted - 2012.01.24 05:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
No. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
94
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Posted - 2012.01.24 07:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
* Will the introduction of S3 lead to the need to also introduce an armor crystal set?
Ya, there should be to, one that helps active and one that helps passive.
* Should S3 replace crystal sets?
No.
* Should the S3 be restricted to use on capital ships? (this will be a hotly contested one)
No. The one that's for the fit should be used (Ex-passive set for passive fit)
* How should S3 be introduced into the game? (LP store, exploration, rat drops, reverse engineering...etc)
LP and drop (navy)
* if introduced in the LP store, which store should sell it?
FW and CONCORD lp store.
* What are some of the balancing issues this may present?
Depends what the 2 new ones are. We have a active one for Shields and a passive one for armour. The active for armour could be cycle time, rep amount, rep cap use, or even fitting needs. The passive for shields could be regen, resist or amount. If the just mirror them probably. If there different (EX-pasive shield set is resist, active armour is cycle time) probably not. If they get weird who knows(EX- shield is a diff resist for each part last boosting all or if the armour is amount, cap use, cycle time,and fitting all in one set but different parts last part boosting all). If they go with the 2 I out line things could be wired, like using the EM and THERM set parts and the rest crystal on an active tank fit.
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