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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Gone'Postal
Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:31:00 -
[31]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler In general we do not reimburse due to lag in fleet battles though.
Then how about you come up with the server that *does* what you say it *can* do.
Where are these wonderful 1000v1000 fights I hear about? I'm sure lots of players enjoy spending there cash to view the loggin on screen or a 100% black screen. ---- \0/ CCP SlideShow Games \0/
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:33:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Originally by: CCP Wrangler In general we do not reimburse due to lag in fleet battles though.
Then how about you come up with the server that *does* what you say it *can* do.
Where are these wonderful 1000v1000 fights I hear about? I'm sure lots of players enjoy spending there cash to view the loggin on screen or a 100% black screen.
Word....
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Originally by: CCP Wrangler In general we do not reimburse due to lag in fleet battles though.
Then how about you come up with the server that *does* what you say it *can* do.
Where are these wonderful 1000v1000 fights I hear about? I'm sure lots of players enjoy spending there cash to view the loggin on screen or a 100% black screen.
Where do you hear about them?
Originally by: Caol
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Caol 5) - /beg. From my personal view, one of my main frustrations with this game is waiting 2hrs and jumping into a lagged out gate to wake up in your clone bay. You can paint the world of eve as a dark unforgiving place etc etc, but its this kind of thing people will (and have) quit over - the situation is that frustrating.
While true, no one forces you to fight in them...it's your own free will.
Eh?
I'll put it simply - no one, not your FC or CCP, physically forces you to take part in those battles. Since they are play at your own risk, you have the free will to not play that way. There are, however, game mechanics which unintentionally promote this kind of thing, but that's a different argument. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Asestorian
Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:39:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Originally by: CCP Wrangler In general we do not reimburse due to lag in fleet battles though.
Then how about you come up with the server that *does* what you say it *can* do.
Where are these wonderful 1000v1000 fights I hear about? I'm sure lots of players enjoy spending there cash to view the loggin on screen or a 100% black screen.
Probably because it's very, very difficult to do. There is only so much money CCP have available for upgrading their servers, and they can't do it all the time. The problem at the moment really isn't the hardware, it's CCP's ageing server code. I believe they have stated that they are going to be working on changing it at some point in the future though, but that it will be a very big and difficult job to do so.
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Khes
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:43:00 -
[35]
I sure don't like lag either and there is no question about if it is there.
But, IF CCP can not see any trace of lag (even if it IS lag) in the logs (as they are now) then they for the love of god can NOT reimburse any ships. If they did, we could just scrap the little thing in game called ISK and we could all just petition as soon as we lost a ship.
Then if CCP need to enhance their logs some how, so be it.
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Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler In general we do not reimburse due to lag in fleet battles though.
They why don't you say that off the bat when someone petitions? Why do you have to go the route of "dude, it's not our problem, must be yours"?
Surely, you are logging server usage and you know where the "hot spots" are? (I hope you are, if you want to solve the performance issues)
You therefore should know when a fleet battle happened. You also know, from the reimbursement menu, which ship loss was claimed and in which system, ergo you can figure out it happened during said fleet battle.
We know there are issues with fleet fights, and we know you are working on it. That's all you have to say.
So, be up front, and refuse reimbursements right off the bat if you see a correlation. Have it automated, even. Heck, prevent the petition from even being filed in those situations!
1) You have less petitions 2) We don't ask escalation to Senior GMs after we get a template response which is totally unsatisfactory 3) You have less people that are ****ed off at you for putting your head in the sand (perception is reality)
The suggestion that reimbursement petitions be removed outright from the system is better than having our intelligence insulted.
- Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:49:00 -
[37]
The logs don't show anything...
Well, then I say that the logs are incomplete and lacking an important aspect of the game!
Why isn't it possible to have a timer running which shows the current server lag? And then add this timer to the logs in question. And if the timer shows that there was lag beyond a certain threshold then reimburse.
This should also sort out lots of confusion about isp/pc lag and server side lag.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:57:00 -
[38]
CCP
pay my travelling expenses and I will go to every one of these babboons places of employment and tell them they are doing their job wrong!
because clearly they are in the wrong line of work if they know your buisness better than you
Originally by: Akita T No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...
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MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:00:00 -
[39]
Like it or not lag is a well known aspect of fleet battles. If it was easy to fix it would be fixed by now. It is better to accept the loss and move on rather then clog the petition queue and whine to CCP.
Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli |
Caol
UK Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:00:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Caol on 04/10/2007 17:02:00
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Caol
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Caol 5) - /beg. From my personal view, one of my main frustrations with this game is waiting 2hrs and jumping into a lagged out gate to wake up in your clone bay. You can paint the world of eve as a dark unforgiving place etc etc, but its this kind of thing people will (and have) quit over - the situation is that frustrating.
While true, no one forces you to fight in them...it's your own free will.
Eh?
I'll put it simply - no one, not your FC or CCP, physically forces you to take part in those battles. Since they are play at your own risk, you have the free will to not play that way. There are, however, game mechanics which unintentionally promote this kind of thing, but that's a different argument.
Sorry old boy, but in order to control 0.0 space you have to fight for it. Which "usually" comes down to a number of sides charging head first into each other. Its a reflex reaction, like breathing.
But this is not what is under discussion, the disscussion concerns "the server shows no logs for your ship loss therefore we cannot reimburse it" and hence the frustration when, on trying to play the game, you are denied satisfaction by lag and then GMs when they have no logs of 300-500+ people jumping into each other .
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:15:00 -
[41]
Remove reimbursements from the game. It is stupid policy and needs to be eliminated completey.
Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated Heres a novel idea. Stop petitioning losses you know wont be reimbursed due to being in a 300+ fleet battle. Your only clogging the petition system. You well know the chances of being lagged to death and can only blame yourself for adding to the problem. No you cant have a due over this is EvE, deal with it.
This is my position also. I never could understand the mindset of people who petition losses in those circumstances.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated Heres a novel idea. Stop petitioning losses you know wont be reimbursed due to being in a 300+ fleet battle. Your only clogging the petition system. You well know the chances of being lagged to death and can only blame yourself for adding to the problem. No you cant have a due over this is EvE, deal with it.
This is my position also. I never could understand the mindset of people who petition losses in those circumstances.
agreed this is utterly stupid. however if its for my carrier....
im sure you get the mindset now :D ------
Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
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Mari Onette
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:30:00 -
[44]
It's easy to get your ships reimbursed.
Just join BoB. - I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth - At 20 dollars a month, Eve costs 2 cents an hour to play. Downtime is cheap. |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:51:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/10/2007 17:52:49
Originally by: Avon I never could understand the mindset of people who petition losses in those circumstances.
If your last 5 losses were in situations, were you couldn't do much, because you were lagged out or loading the grid took longer than it took the enemy to kill or tackle you to kill you, then you get frustrated. Don't remember a blob battle that wasn't frustrating within the last year.
If the server doesn't screw it up, my PC has problems to to chew through these insane blobs. I hate 300 people in one grid e.g. sniper tactic, when you are outnumbered and try to pick out some single targets, so warp in, align, snipe, warp-out and that against hundreds of people. It's a pain. FC: Ok, warp out again. Me thinking: 'lolz, I haven't even loaded all that stuff ... ok, now. Bleh, I'm tackled.'
Yes, eve blobpvp is so much fun ! Did I say I hate it ? Ok, good thing is, don't have anything todo with conquerable stations at the moment, so just can stay away. Ok, I don't petition losses, when it's my PCs fault, but if the server screws it up, there is a desire to vent it via petitioning just to show CCP that something is wrong with their territorial blob battles.
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Lanjar
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:13:00 -
[46]
all i can say is show us all a REAL log(not from the test server), logging is part of my RL job and i dont belive you are logging the right things or the people who are reading the logs dont know how to read them
this Reimbursement policy is a BIG BAD JOKE as we are paying for a service they we are not getting
BUMP |
Segge Bolled
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:27:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally,
I'm sorry that I've become jaded just enough that I automatically completed this with "you're given the same template response" before I finished reading and had to go back and do it a second time,
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Lord Darkness
Super Muppets Accumulated Space Holding Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:28:00 -
[48]
Wrangler or anyone else at CCP,
Is there a proper channel for players to go through and get a response to address GM Policies?
This doesn't just go for reimbursement just a general way for us to give feedback and get a response.
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Major Stallion
Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:32:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Andargor theWise
Then have them stop saying there's nothing wrong, and blaming the pilots instead.
uh what?? Are you serious? There is nothing wrong with the way you lose your ship. you are willingly jumping into the 300 v 300 situation. No ones got a gun to your head. And CCP has never claimed that the system can handle it. Its YOU who says "hey i think its a good idea to test the server limits, lets try 300 v 300, and maybe tomorrow 400 v 400!!!"
If you, for one second think that ANY game on the internet can handle that amount of numbers on one node, you are sorely mistaken. I laugh at your pitiful attempts to slander CCP and their GMs. They dont claim this kind of warfare is possible, therefore they arent required to give you your ship back if its lost to the 600 person battles. ________________________________ High Sec PvP
Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
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Berand
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:32:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Berand on 04/10/2007 18:33:49
Damn, normally I hate whines on the forums. In this case though, I'm doing the whole John Hancock thing and writing my name down as large as I can.
The way CCP's team treats reimbursement petitions is a crime. Real companies in the real world are more willing to be helpful then CCP is, and those companies are reimbursing real money. CCP goes out of their way to not reimburse you with little digital ships that don't cost them anything.
After going through a petition cycle, you would think they had no idea lag was a problem in the game. "What lag? Prove it! Hah." I recently had a reimbursement petition denied because of a "feature" that was unknown to me that the first GM said was listed in the FAQs. I looked in the FAQs, and it wasn't there, so I wrote back and said it wasn't. Them they basically said oops, well, it should be, and that I was just out of luck. It's like they shamelessly look for reasons not to fill your petition.
BERAND
I had a great idea! We could copy Outbreak's sigs! I've only seen it done like, one or two or maybe three times, so it's sure to be funny. |
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Lanjar
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:39:00 -
[51]
this is all by the by with out the logs
show us the logs
that is all there is to say
i know its not at my end so it must be at your end and yes i have the logs to prove it
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Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:54:00 -
[52]
I have lost many ships to lag. I don't go into "large" battles anymore, if I think it's just going to be a lag fest, unless I'm willing to write off the ship and the experience.
This ongoing issue of "I want my ship back cause I lost it due to lag" is just a no-winner all around. The players will always be able to bring enough ships into a grid to bork the server, as things currently stand. I know it hurts to lose to lag, but the high level of do-overs is not particularly healthy, either. Better, IMO, to sometimes just say "lag won" and walk away.
Lag is to a great degree a self-inflicted wound. Unfortunately, however, the way the game play/strategy is designed encourages the very thing that brings the lag. That part CCP does have to answer for, in a more high level court of equity.
As for me and my house, because of server side limits we will fly in modest gangs, and leave the frustrations of POS wars and so-called "epic" fleet battles to others.
Regards,
G
-- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
R9664
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:59:00 -
[53]
im not realy sure how they are manageing the cluster use or system use or even gridd use but i can say this 1000v1000 arent realy that hard to get lagg free with todays computers . i have personaly seen atleast 600v600 pvp fightes in other games and that was 10 years agou.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.10.04 19:25:00 -
[54]
The large battle loss petitions are just stupid IMO. If your taking a ship into a 300+ player battle the chances of you living past the first shot if you were called primary would be 0. As such you should expect the ship your flying to die.
That said the logging on some player deaths need to be checked a bit better. Concord kills especially, there have been several that I've seen that don't get reimbursed to known problems because it can't be verified in the logs.
More defined logs should be looked at. If there are problems in the game mechanic and you can't see them in the logs, you need to look at getting better logging systems or just asking the current ones for more info. -----------------------------------------------
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VicturusTeSaluto
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Posted - 2007.10.04 19:28:00 -
[55]
Ship reimbursement petitions have a very simple formula.
It simply depends on the mood of the GM at the time, no more.
Two people could report a loss due to exactly the same issue, but only 1 gets their ship back.
Here is an example of just how stupid these guys are... One of my corp mates lost his drake TWICE in the same night to a mission. He reported that he was unable to warp out due to a game bug and each time was given his ship back in a short amount of time.
The actual issue? He was warp scrambled and simply too stupid to know.
Then a player can lose a ship in a manner that is completely out of their control and would NEVER occur under normal game mechanics and they do not get their ship back.
GM's are a joke.
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DaveW
Caldari South Park Development
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Posted - 2007.10.04 19:44:00 -
[56]
In my three years of playing EVE I've made about a half dozen petitions for ship loses that I though were beyond my control. I think I only had one rejected.
Of course, I took the time to explain in detail what happened, I didn't 'smack talk' or threaten to close my account, and I tried to treat the person reading the petition as a Human Being.
You'd be surprised how far that will get you in life.
---------------------------------------------------
"If you can't stand the heat..., stay out of the Kitchen." |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 19:47:00 -
[57]
Wrangler, I think the GM's answer credibility level has gone downhill ever since it was admitted that serverside logging isn't available for all nodes at all times and that is also evident if you "read between the lines" on their responses. Anyway, I've always thought that -in this game with such harsh death penalties- your petitions should be handled by a giving the benefit of the doubt policy. This whole mistrusting attitude policy of not realy accepting player logs, screenshots, fraps and logical assumptions is perceived as offensive to me. So next time I file a petition, "prove me wrong" and ban me for a week (with increasing ban periods for me wasting your time again and again), orelse grant me the claim. Maybe a few bans would cut down the petition queue in time heh
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SPIONKOP
Caldari Fire Suppression
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Posted - 2007.10.04 20:43:00 -
[58]
Originally by: R9664 im not realy sure how they are manageing the cluster use or system use or even gridd use but i can say this 1000v1000 arent realy that hard to get lagg free with todays computers . i have personaly seen atleast 600v600 pvp fightes in other games and that was 10 years agou.
I suspect 10 years ago the number of objects that could affect the outome of a battle would be a lot loss. I am sure your aware that in Eve for every person in the "battle" you could have upto 8 weapons with several salvos in flight, as well as drones, mods, various attributes of the ship, character and gang leader. That must be many 1000's of calculations per second.
Every computer has its limits.
Maybe CCP should adopt turn based battles
--------------------------------------------- Space For Rent.
100mil ISK/Week.
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01001101
Caldari Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2007.10.04 20:47:00 -
[59]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
Well since you cant immediately fix problems like massive lag in fleet battles, can you tell us when the logs will be fixed to show the right information to actually determine whether a ship should be reimbursed or not?
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Greenwing
SuX ltd. Rare Faction
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Posted - 2007.10.04 20:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Greenwing on 04/10/2007 20:57:08
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
The biggest problem is a lot of issues can not be seen in your logs. I've got a petition atm where after warping into a mission i could not do anything until i was in a pod. This happened a day later again but with an alt account. Most probably this is caused by some corrupt files (a year ago i had disconnects as soon as i was targeted, i later discovered this was caused by a defective HDD where some files were damaged)
I'm 100% sure your logs will show nothing at all because nothing happened between warping in and being killed (that's exactly what the problem is ) but i did loose a ship (which could handle that mission easily) without firing a single shot. Looking logically at the logs you can conclude something went wrong (especially as it happened twice), but your logs will not show direct evidence. So how do you look at problems like this ?
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