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Minmatar Need Real Ewar!

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Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.06 00:39:00 - [1] CCP, on behalf of all Minmatar pilots please either unnerf the painters or give us an ewar system that isn't a complete piece of **. It's more effective to fit huginns/rapiers/bellicoses with Damps that it is to use painters with their crappy range and sig inflation. What good does that painter except waste a midslot on an ewar system that has no adverse effect on the enemy ship. Nobody screams, "OH , I'm painted" You are putting the heavy interdictor into the game with the graviton mod that paints, webs, and increases mass but it's short range. Give the Heavy Dictor a web probe that slows down anything in the affected area and/or reduces the ab/mwd velocity except the heavy dictor itself (propulsion shielding). MINMATAR NEED REAL EWAR** Give us the Graviton Disruptor with good range for fleet ops (100km max), ECM chance based effectiveness to disable the target ship's mwd/ab and inflates the signature radius. Give Bellicose/Rapier/Huginn STR bonus and Cap reduction bonus so that the Minmatar Ewar is only really useful on the Minmatar belli/rapier/huginn (much as ECM is only really useful on the caldari ewar ships). THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Zendoc InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.06 00:58:00 - [2] While I am not sure a Gravitation Disruptor is really a realistic solution to the minmatar EWar dilemma (though it sounds cool) I have to agree, minmatar electronic warfare blows. However, one could argue that minmatar aren't really the EW race, we're the stack lots of guns on your ship and speed race. Those are our two strengths that no other race has.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.10.06 01:12:00 - [3] I have to disagree. While the target painter ain't the best mod in the game it's hardly useless. And the nice thing about the Minnie recons (especially the Rapier) is the flexibility provided by the pretty hefty CPU and grid allowing countless ways to fit other EWAR (i.e 2xweb 2xdamps or various other combos). "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.10.06 01:30:00 - [4] Painters, one of the most underrated mods in the game. y'know that 1 T2 painter from a Huginn/Bellicose/Rapier is the same as a tracking boost of about 45% for everyone that is shooting the painted target with turrets (even drones)? As well as a boost for missiles if explosion radius > Signature radius. Not to mention anyone will target said ship faster as well. Unlike the other EW in the game Target painters are a very offensive oriented EW, rather then defensive. Can't think of anything that fits better with minmatar tbh (except maybe something that increases damage directly, by eg. reducing resists). --- stuff
Insomnium Minmatar the united	Posted - 2007.10.06 02:08:00 - [5] Edited by: Insomnium on 06/10/2007 02:10:32 forgive me for going a tad off topic, but i do like the whole concept of reducing resists. perhaps not as a widespread use module but maybe to a specific ship class. forget black ops, i want a saboteur ship (the counter logistics?) have a bonus that gimps tanking ability by reducing resistances/repper effectiveness. would be a nice little counter to remote repping cap ships? dont know how balance would come into play but hell, i like the way it sounds. oh yeah and i'd like TP to be a bit more effective with turrets. works great with missiles but i find it doesnt really help my arties hit any harder. ------------------------------------ If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward
Uncle Smokey	Posted - 2007.10.06 02:43:00 - [6] Playing with some tracking calculator once, i thought the painters were not that good for turrets. MWD'ing frigate in a web really gets hit with its massive radius, but i did not think the painter does that much of a sht here. But that was quite a while ago, or i could have just done it wrong. In that case, please correct me. and then into some rambling: zendog: could you point out where that "lots of guns" distinguish minmatar anyways at all? Thought it was just some core complexion slogan. There aint much behind that "Hit & Run " ad neither, is there? The slight base speed bonus really doesnt shine out that much as a racial trait IMO. Warp speed or agility, what comes to mobility, are not race specific i believe, and make the race no more guerrilla than the others. Yes, vaga is this and that fast with snakes and rigs, and i dont give a f about that. Minnies once got a noticeable stregth: higher propulsion strength over the others. It didnt do anything, though, and was removed after RMR. looking at all this, what can you say? well, raise your fist, boy, i'll tell you what you can say... that is: BOOST MINMATAR!!!!11** crowds going wild in the back
Zendoc InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.06 05:55:00 - [7] Well actually in just about every ship class, the Minimatar ships tend to have a faster base speed than any other race's ship of the same class. Even if its only by a few meters per second. The stabber and vagabond are the most obvious examples. But look at the claw, the rifter, the jaguar, the cyclone, the typhoon, etc. etc., their base speeds tend to be higher than any other races. On top of that, in most cases minmatar tends to have the most turret hardpoints out of any of the races, so they do stack more guns literally.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Zendoc On top of that, in most cases minmatar tends to have the most turret hardpoints out of any of the races, so they do stack more guns literally. not really. most weapon hardpoints maybe (didnt check) but not most turret hardpoints.
Illminatis	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:23:00 - [9] We Amarrians are also forced to put damps on our recons. Well, not forced, but seriously why would I tracking disrupt when I can keep them from locking instead?
Illminatis	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:35:00 - [10] Edited by: Illminatis on 06/10/2007 06:35:58 Originally by: Uncle Smokey Edited by: Uncle Smokey on 06/10/2007 02:57:56 There aint much behind that "Hit & Run " ad neither, is there? The slight base speed bonus really doesnt shine out that much as a racial trait IMO. Warp speed or agility, what comes to mobility, are not race specific i believe, and make the race no more guerrilla than the others. Yes, vaga is this and that fast with snakes and rigs, and i dont give a f* about that. Originally by:** Uncle Smokey Edited by: Uncle Smokey on 06/10/2007 02:57:56 ... There aint much behind that "Hit & Run " ad neither, is there? The slight base speed bonus really doesnt shine out that much as a racial trait IMO. Warp speed or agility, what comes to mobility, are not race specific i believe, and make the race no more guerrilla than the others. Yes, vaga is this and that fast with snakes and rigs, and i dont give a f* about that. ... Minmatar get.... Speed (significantly faster than any other race) Guns that use no cap and can do all 4 damage types with a very nasty falloff Massive Alpha-strike Best gang bonuses (Skirmish) On the other hand... They can't really tank too well Pretty lousy for Mission running Target painter bonus (pretty **ty, I'll admit) Have lulzworthy slot layouts. It's really not too bad honestly. If you really want to see a pathetic race, check out the Amarr. The only real good ships they have are the Recons. Edit: somehow the first post didn't take....
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.10.06 08:03:00 - [11] NO! Minmatar does not need a boost.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.10.06 08:28:00 - [12] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 06/10/2007 08:30:23 Originally by: Illminatis Edited by: Illminatis on 06/10/2007 06:38:18 Originally by: Uncle Smokey ... Minmatar really aren't that bad off. Minmatar get.... Speed (significantly faster than any other race) yeah Massive Alpha-strike Not as much anymore, the Tachy Abaddon comes close to the Maelstrom(Maelstrom really should have a damage bonus instead of rate of fire), besides that alpha strike isn't as important anymore with the bigger HP buffers nowadays. Best gang bonuses (Skirmish) That's a matter of what your squad is made of, mostly ECM/damp ***s and you don't have as much use from skirmish as from information warfare. Guns that use no cap and can do all 4 damage types with a very nasty falloff Launchers also don't use cap and can more efficiently utilize all 4 damage types then projectiles On the other hand... They can't really tank too well Ever gone against a Maelstrom? Can have some scary tankage on that. Pretty lousy for Mission running Which race isn't? Oh,yeah Caldari Target painter bonus (pretty craptacular, I'll admit) Don't underestimate a 50% increased signature radius of a target, it's equal to the same increase in tracking for everything(incl. drones) shooting the target, as well as a boost to missiles if target is small. Have sometimes lulzworthy slot layouts and annoyingly tight fitting. Each race has their questionable brain fart ships It's really not too bad honestly. If you really want to see a pathetic race, check out the Amarr. The only real good ships they have are the Recons. Don't discount the Amarr tbh, Sacrilege is uber now. The laser ganking ships are impressive in a small gang. Not denying Amarr have their problems but there isn't a single race that has no problems (well except gallente perhaps ) Edit: My posting attempts are made of fail Apologies for butchering your posting attempts made of fail. --- stuff
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.06 08:42:00 - [13] I like the target painter bonus. It goes well when you combine it with other ships. Alone, I agree, it is meh, but if you have different people, then it is a welcome addition to any fleet. For example, that interceptor that is using an afterburner instead of a MWD? Now your bigger ships can make it go poof. Webber + Target Painter + Battleship DPS = Inty pilot QQ On the subject of Tracking Disruptors, leave my Pilgrim / Arbitrator alone (I left the curse out of this on purpose ). IMHO, 2x Tracking Disruptors > 2x Sensor Damps on these ships. Yea, they don't do squat for missles, but hey, can't have everything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) http://dl
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.10.06 10:04:00 - [14] You know guys, the isuue isn't that the target painter isn't a good or useful module, the issue was never that at all. What it is all about is performance, target painter v's all other ewar. Basically if it was an engineering module we wouldn't be having these discussions. But as it stands, the TP is inferior to all 3 other ewar modules and thats not acceptable. Now it has been suggested that the target painter also gets a negative resist bonus, its not an unreasonable ask and compliments the minmatar philosophy of warfare rather well. Apart from that, there is no real viable option that has been suggested that hasn't already been done in another module. There are only so many things you can affect in the game.
Emporors Champian	Posted - 2007.10.06 11:39:00 - [15] minmitar are supposed to be the second best race at everything. they have the second best drone skills and second best at armor tanking second best at shild tanking second best at ewar the only catagory minmitar has above anyone is speed... i think target painters are good in respect they dont care what kind of tank or resist you have makes my guns do ever so slightly more damage. its a good way to combine a tracker and damage mod in 1 but i do agree the painter is very weak
General StarScream Cybertronic Decepticons	Posted - 2007.10.06 12:22:00 - [16] Bs if anything the min need a big nerf.
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.06 16:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Illminatis Edited by: Illminatis on 06/10/2007 06:38:18 Minmatar really aren't that bad off. Minmatar get.... Speed (significantly faster than any other race) Massive Alpha-strike Best gang bonuses (Skirmish) Guns that use no cap and can do all 4 damage types with a very nasty falloff On the other hand... They can't really tank too well Pretty lousy for Mission running Target painter bonus (pretty craptacular, I'll admit) Have sometimes lulzworthy slot layouts and annoyingly tight fitting. It's really not too bad honestly. If you really want to see a pathetic race, check out the Amarr. The only real good ships they have are the Recons. Edit: My posting attempts are made of fail - minmatar are not significantly faster than all other ships, 20 30 km mor at most, not much when you have things running around 10K km these days - alpha was nerfed already with the hitpoint increase - best gang bonus? wtf - nasty falloff is only for ac and it still does not compare to blasters without dicussing dmg as well. we don't even need to discuss the split weapons system that not only take longer to skill but also half the effect of bonus mods. amarr already got your boost if you've not been reading. at least amarr can hit something when the are moving, minmater almost need to be moving directly towards or away to hit anything like a cruiser or below ...the tracking sucks so bad.
Rudy Metallo Sanguine Raiders	Posted - 2007.10.06 18:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Futher Bezluden Nobody screams, "OH ****, I'm painted" People fighting dreads in siege mode do. Say what?
Adrian Steel Caldari The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Uncle Smokey Edited by: Uncle Smokey on 06/10/2007 02:57:56 zendog: could you point out where that "lots of guns" distinguish minmatar anyways at all? Thought it was just some core complexion slogan. There aint much behind that "Hit & Run " ad neither, is there? The slight base speed bonus really doesnt shine out that much as a racial trait IMO. Warp speed or agility, what comes to mobility, are not race specific i believe, and make the race no more guerrilla than the others. Yes, vaga is this and that fast with snakes and rigs, and i dont give a f* about that You must be smoking your herb out of a bagpipe, because that's some strong **. I have to question whether you've flown the other races at all?
Jack Icegaard The Omega Project	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:37:00 - [20] Originally by: dor amwar - minmatar are not significantly faster than all other ships, 20 30 km mor at most, not much when you have things running around 10K km these days. The speed boosting modules and rigs give a relative speed increase. Generally speaking, Minmatar ships are significantly faster than other factions. Their ships has the lowest mass in the game. That means that if their base speed is say, 15 % faster, their speed on MWD will be more than 15% faster. I made some comparing calculations between Gallante and Minmatar for some popular PvP ship classes. The calculations are for speed with MWD and I'm comparing the two fastest ships in each class. Note that Gallante is not the slowest faction in the game. fastest Recon: Huginn vs Lachesis => Huginn 25 % faster. HAC: Vagabond vs Deimos => Vagabond 57% faster. Interceptor: Claw vs Ares => Claw 4 % faster. Battleship: Typhoon vs Hyperion => Typhoon 17 % faster. Battlecruiser: Hurricane vs Myrmidon => Hurricane 18% faster. These are significant speed advantages for all but the Interceptors. If you compare Minmatar with Caldari the differences are even bigger, except for interceptors. Superior speed is a huge tactical advantage in this game. If you want to fly the fastest faction in the game you are bound to suffer in other combat areas. There is really no way around it.
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:39:00 - [21] yea, make it lower resistances, that would be nice ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Rudy Metallo Originally by: Futher Bezluden Nobody screams, "OH ****, I'm painted" People fighting dreads in siege mode do. yea, cuz you fight siege dread every day! ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:11:00 - [23] I agree the TP is kind of worthless unless you happen to be flying a minny recon with a gang of torp raven's or dread's. I think we should get a webber bonus like on the recons but that might be way overpowerd in PVP. !
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.06 23:00:00 - [24] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/10/2007 23:02:31 There are really two problems. Firstly, painters are not really an EW system. Unlike ECM, damps and TDs they do not disable other ships but help your ships to hit. Like tracking links. IMO they are better suited as bonused module on logistic ships. Secondly, even though TPs are relatively pointless on the minnie recons they are STILL considered for their general performance one of the best, if not the best recons in the game. The curse is better solo, the rook/falcon is betetr in fleets, but no recon has the general good-very good performance over the whole spectrum like the minnie recons. So, TP being a pointless "EW" system? Yes. Minnie recons needing a buff? No. This is mainly because web range is a very very...very strong bonus. The problem Is with the t1 minnie ships with TP bonuses, not with the t2 ones. Personally? - move the TP bonus over to the scythe/scimitar. - give the vigil a 50% web range bonus instead, the belli a 100% and the huginn/rapier 2 100% bonuses (which would result in them having exactly the same webrange has they have now).
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.10.07 11:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 06/10/2007 23:02:31 There are really two problems. Firstly, painters are not really an EW system. Unlike ECM, damps and TDs they do not disable other ships but help your ships to hit. Like tracking links. IMO they are better suited as bonused module on logistic ships. Secondly, even though TPs are relatively pointless on the minnie recons they are STILL considered for their general performance one of the best, if not the best recons in the game. The curse is better solo, the rook/falcon is betetr in fleets, but no recon has the general good-very good performance over the whole spectrum like the minnie recons. So, TP being a pointless "EW" system? Yes. Minnie recons needing a buff? No. This is mainly because web range is a very very...very strong bonus. The problem Is with the t1 minnie ships with TP bonuses, not with the t2 ones. I wouldn't agree with Target painters not being EW, imo it is. It is an offensive system rather then defensive, like the other 3 EW systems. And it is targeted at enemies and not friendlies(like tracking links). Target painters seem weak right now(and as a result rarely used on the recons)partly because webifiers are extremely strong compared to them. a target webbed more then doubles the chance to hit said target with turrets, while target painting only increases chance by about 50%. Originally by: Aramendel Personally? - move the TP bonus over to the scythe/scimitar. - give the vigil a 50% web range bonus instead, the belli a 100% and the huginn/rapier 2 100% bonuses (which would result in them having exactly the same webrange has they have now). I would keep the bonuses as is myself. Even though I admit I don't use target painters much on my recons, but only because webbing the target is a much bigger impact on hit chance then I can ever achieve with painters. If not for the webs, painters would be very nice however. --- stuff
Helldrek Demonstar Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.10.07 12:14:00 - [26] noes! that will give us yet more skills to branch off into ---
Phil Miller Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:53:00 - [27] Minmatar need a speed nerf. ______________________________ You sank [cyan]my[/cyan] battleship!
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2007.10.07 18:23:00 - [28] It is very debatable if TP are the worse as the uses of each method are very different and they shine in different situations. But even if the TP are the worse of them, what about it? From the 4 kinds of EW one has to be the "worse" overall. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Ruddger Minmatar Blackmire Revived	Posted - 2007.10.07 18:41:00 - [29] I am very bias. I only fly Minmatar and I love my TP. Now I will be the first to admit that TP are not as sexy as the other forms of EWAR. It is not as satisfying as preventing a lock or setting someones guns to wild fire. But do this for me... next time you are in a small gang have 1 guy fly a vigil with dual TPs and a speed tank. Its a simple request, you don't even need a ton of SP. See what happens.
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2007.10.07 22:48:00 - [30] Originally by: iiOs yea, make it lower resistances, that would be nice bad idea, since that would mean a damage mod for the mids. To balance it you'd have to have it stack with the low slot/rig damage jobbies and that would make it essentially useless. If you didn't make it stack, everyone would fit one or two, and it would be nerfed before it even hit Tranq because you'd instapop everything when in a gang, or everyone would ignore tanking their ships at all, go full gank, and the game would further degenerate into 'whoever gets the lock first, wins'. Remember the 8 damage mod geddon? I don't want that back again. __________________________________________________ FOLD. The Ultimate PVP. It really is Us vs. Them. clicky

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