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[2OC] My future IPO plans

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Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.11 08:32:00 - [1] Things have been running niclely for two and a half weeks now and I'm very confident of hitting the 200% return target at the end of the month. The original post + weekly reports is here However, I'm enjoying myself and the time required to manage things is getting less and less as things move on. Consequently, I'm considering extending the business beyond the month end. This thread is to discuss a few ideas I have. Disclaimers: 1) I will NOT change the original plan without holding a shareholder vote first and I will honour the result of that vote. 2) Although month end is almost 3 weeks away and my position may well change, I want to discuss this now to get a good idea of people's general thoughts (shareholders or otherwise) and leave time for a vote. Ok, now on to the real meat of this. I have a few different ideas for how to continue things past the 1 month mark: A) Simply pay out all profits made over the month (i.e. to get back to 4 bil in the corp wallet) and do the same thing next month. I don't like this because it would be awkward to get the cash together while continuing the operation (bear in mind that this will be over 50% of the total corp value and most of that will not be liquid but invested in inventory). Also, it would feel like going back to square one for me after having earned so much. On the plus side, all investors would get a fat payout that already pays back thier entire investment + a little extra. This would also build some trust as I havn't actually delivered anything yet. B) Payout nothing and continue as normal. This would essentially be increasing the investor's assets by further growing the value of the shares in the company rather than paying dividends. If this were the case, I would need to apply for listing on the exchanges and offer a buyback program of some sort. There are a few other things I could do in this case, e.g. split the stock 2 for 1, doubling the shares held by each investor but halving the value. Would anyone see this as worthwhile? Personally I think it would be a good thing but not sure... The buyback would be done at somthing around 95% of the share value. I would usually be able to buy back straight away but for large amounts it might be that the investor would have to wait a few days. c) Pay a dividend and continue as normal. Payout of a dividend, just like a normal IPO but at a much higher rate is certainly an option. This would be somthing of a halfway point between the extremes described above. Giving somthing tangible back to investors but also not going completely back to square one. Personally, I like option B the best. Retaining all the capital raised, I'm confident that net profits will be much higher the next month (though not as a percentage of capital. I'd be very suprised if I managed to turn 8 bil into 16 bil in one month!) Also, I just like the idea of it more.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.11 09:25:00 - [2] So is the basic thing you are after to hold onto the funds for longer? From what I can understand, all your options point to that. If you would like to run things for longer I probably expect a shareholder vote to pass. If you want to expand to a larger business (take in more cash) I probably expect a shareholder vote to fail. Not being a shareholder, nothing I say has any merit Oh, and what would the plans be regarding the security EBANK currently hold? Any ideas etc? Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.11 09:47:00 - [3] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 11/10/2007 09:48:22 As a (minor) shareholder, I quite like option c, but perhaps in addition to making a smaller payout, you could consider offering to buy back shares at 100% of their original sale price. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Daeva Vios Ardent Adversary Anvil.	Posted - 2007.10.11 10:08:00 - [4] Not being a shareholder I realize my say isn't very valuable, but I'll chime in anyway. I do like option B, but that's because I'd really like to see the market progress, and I believe diversifying the types of stocks available will help to achieve that. Most every IPO out there pays dividends. It would be nice to see a stock traded based on the strength of the corporation rather than the promise of a payout every month. A payout is nice and all, but it does cut into the earnings of the corporation (unless there is an earnings cap of some kind). Just my 2 isk.
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.11 11:05:00 - [5] Ricdic: personally I would prefer to hold onto both the initial investment and the profits made so far. I wouldn't be looking to raise more isk as I don't know that I could continue returning large percentages with a sudden huge increase of capital. I believe organic growth is far better in this case. I meant to mention the security thing but forgot. I guess that would remain with you, I'd be happy with that situation and you continuing to take the agreed %age of dividends each month. (Nice little earner for you!) Certainly I think that just removing the security would be a very bad move if I wanted to keep all the investments + profit in the business. Kazuo: Very interesting idea. That would still be giving a return to those who invested but also giving them the option of withdrawing thier initial investment. The only thing I don't like is that it would be completely going back on the expected 200% return as if someone were to take the first month dividend and then sell back all thier shares, they would only recieve 100% + whatever the dividend was. whereas in each of the other schemes above, the total asset value of shares + cash would always be around the expected 200% of initial investment at the end of the month. Still, it's certainly an intriguing option. Daeva: That's my thoughts as well, I'm certainly interested in the opinoins of those who arn't shareholders when it comes to this as it could have knock on effects on the whole IPO scene. It could well be that I will soon hit a point where no matter how much more isk I get, I can't make anymore profit. The way I run things is not massively scaleable and it is time dependant but I think I could work with up to around 14 bil before this became a problem. When that cap was reached I could then look at paying dividends from the extra profit or look into other ways of making money.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.11 11:21:00 - [6] I meant to add- you could just defer the rest of the originally planned dividend until you decide to wind up the IPO, or until you can provide it without impinging on your operations. If you want to keep on going, you're still offering an outstanding rate of return. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.11 11:54:00 - [7] Edited by: Shadarle on 11/10/2007 11:54:50 It is due to something like this happening that I personally did not invest. I just had this feeling that you wouldn't actually want to pay out every penny to people at the end of a month. Once you have money it is hard to let go of it. Unfortunately you will have not lived up to your initial IPO if you do not pay out as you said you would in it. The best bet, imo, is to pay out exactly as you initially planned and liquidate everything and return 200%+ profits to everyone who invested. Then, decide on a slightly new, modified plan, and ask for more capital and start up a new IPO. This time without security or with only a fraction of it secured, say 50%. If divs are still promised to be good then you'll still sell out. After a month or two of this you can again liquidate and fulfill the IPO. Then start up a totally new IPO with no security and rest your reputation on filling extremely high profits for 3 months from that point. That's my suggestion. Because if you do not actually pay out the 200% you promised initially I will be telling myself "told you so, he wouldn't do it". Living up to past promises is the best way to gain a good rep imo. If you keep changing things as things go, and in the process fail to pay out when you promised to pay out and in the amounts you promised to pay, it hurts your rep. But hey, if your shareholders trust you enough to stay keep going and don't pay us a thing, then that is their choice! Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.11 12:19:00 - [8] Edited by: Ambo on 11/10/2007 12:20:31 That's exactly why I would not change anything unless I held a vote and a majority wanted to take a different route. If I want to change things slightly and my investors are wanting me to go with that as well then it would be foolish and pointless to shut up shop just to make sure I did what I said I'd do at the beginning. Things change and adaptability is a key to success. I'm not really concerned with that side of it yet though as the shareholder vote wouldn't be for a while. What I'm more interested in right now is the community's thoughts about the different options presented in a general sense. e.g. The viability of an IPO that does not pay a dividend. It may well be that in a couple of weeks I will have changed my mind and shut up shop regardless of what the investors want me to do. This is all about open discussion and giving people options and I can't see anything wrong with that. *punctuation edit.
Block Ukx KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.10.11 12:45:00 - [9] Shareholders hold 43.75% of the outstanding shares. You should finish the plan and pay out to shareholders or your reputation will be damaged. After you successfully finish this phase, then issue a vote regarding future investment. For instance, 50% dividends and 50% retained earnings is a typical distribution.
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.11 13:05:00 - [10] In my opinion there is no question here about what you should do. Honor your original agreement and then start a new IPO. Deviating from this course of action will only tarnish your image.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Ambo That's exactly why I would not change anything unless I held a vote and a majority wanted to take a different route. Regardless, if the majority decides to go one direction you still made promises to those who don't agree. Unless you don't mind the reputation of keeping the majority of your promises, just not all of them. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:22:00 - [12] hmm, I'm suprised to see so many that would not want to build on the initial success but I can completely understand the reasons why. This makes me lean more towards just finishing up and starting somthing different in the new year. Christmas would be a pain in the arse anyway. Thanks for all the advice.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Ambo hmm, I'm suprised to see so many that would not want to build on the initial success but I can completely understand the reasons why. Oh, don't get us wrong. Many would want to build on the initial success. And by following through with every agreement you've set forth... you are building on your success. Success here is not solely determined by some isk indicator. If that were so this would be the "scammer e-peen" forum, not the market one. And yes, I do understand the desire to make a good thing better and to ride it as long as it can be ridden. It is a heady thing that can seduce you with it's sweet temptations into areas wiser men just don't go. {sighs} But back to talking about isk and not women, let it go. If it loves you it'll come back... ... Hmmm perhaps money and women are just alike. I'll have to get back to you on that. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:48:00 - [14] Hehe, you're right, maybe I'm being a little over-eager.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.11 16:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Ambo Hehe, you're right, maybe I'm being a little over-eager. Shar is right. Remember, the value of money begins to change as you become involved in the market. It becomes a tool. You begin to realize that money makes money, being able to handle money let's you borrow more of it, and if you build a great Rep, you can borrow money when you like (so long as you pay back and follow your own rules). The REAL value here is the value of your reputation. In my opinion, there is nothing more valuable then that. If I was actually playing EVE just for how much isk I could make per month, I'd have quit a very very very long time ago. You've shown you have a knack for the market, so stick with it, don't get ahead of yourself, and keep asking (and listening) for advice. Keep up the good work. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.11 16:32:00 - [16] There is another corp, a much bigger one, that is attempting to do the same thing you wanted to do Ambo. Perhaps that is where you got the idea from. I think it was just as wrong for that corp to try to change course so drastically midstream, especially because all the reasons he gave for doing so were brought up before the first investment was even made and they were shrugged off. But for some reason most all the shareholders went along with it I believe. I personally have written that person off as someone I do not feel comfortable investing in. To me it's simple. If you say you are going to make 4 billion isk in 1 month and then pay it all out, then that is exactly what you do. As soon as you start changing the goalposts, not honoring the exact agreements people made with you, etc, you start getting into tricky ground. You risk hurting your rep among some people while gaining it with others. If you have a 1 month IPO, end it in one month. If your IPO is for X, Y, and Z... do X, Y, and Z. If those things don't pan out as expected or the markets change then liquidate and hand the money back as best you can. If you do these things no one will be mad at you, they will respect you for not trying to scam them or by trying to go double down on their money. You can always start up a new IPO for another month (or longer) or you could start a new IPO focussed on new things. Lots of shorter IPO's is probably a much better way to go in the player driven business field these days if you ask me. You'll get a LOT more attention if you run lots of these quick IPO's that pay well. It will increase your exposure big time. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2007.10.11 16:37:00 - [17] How much ISK do you believe you could effectively make similar profits on?
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:22:00 - [18] Thanks again for all the advice everyone. I'm very glad I decided to ask the question here first rather than just doing a vote in a few weeks. I think you are totaly right, I was just looking at it from a different angle and did'nt see the damage this might cause so it's great to be shown a different perspective. Originally by: Benvie How much ISK do you believe you could effectively make similar profits on? Interesting question, last time I did this, I made more cash wise but then when I did it before I spent a LOT more time on it, checking buy and sell orders for 40 or so items across 3 or 4 regions. Usually 3 or 4 times every day + putting the courier contracts up was a LOT of work! This time around I only update orders 1 once or twice a day, somtimes not at all. I also have a tool that means the time I spend on courier contracts is massively reduced. All in all, I only spend 1 or 2 hours online each day which ain't too bad. Assuming that rate of time online, I would say that 4 bil a month profit can be easilly achieved indefinately. Tbh I really don't know if I could reliably return 100% of investment per month with much more than 4 bil. I'd estimate my cieling (i.e. the point at which extra capital would result in no extra profit) at around 12-14bil but that's really just a guess. However, by adjusting my current practices slightly I believe I could earn only slightly lower percentage returns on much larger amounts. I'd have to do some real investigation before being sure enough to go for somthing like that though.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.10.11 17:45:00 - [19] Edited by: FastLearner on 11/10/2007 17:47:10 It occurs to me that your best option is probably one not even included in your OP. Announce that you will liquidate as planned BUT that you will then run a replacement IPO (for whatever amount you decide). Further announce that any current investors who want to leave all or some of their current investment in place will received preference on obtaining shares in your new venture. Whatever money current investors choose to leave in your venture then doesn't need to be liquidated. No vote is needed - as no compulsory change is being made to what current investors already signed up for. If all (or the majority) of current investors choose to take their money out then you'd have lost any such vote anyway. This method also allows you to get back your security - if you intend to (provided current investors are clearly told that if they choose to not withdraw they are in principle being paid then reinvesting in a new IPO). Obviously such security wouldn't be returned until all investors choosing to divest themselves had been paid out. EDIT: To be clear, my personal view is that even if 90% of shareholders voted to leave all money in, that shouldn't remove from the other 10% their right to withdraw. The solution I propose should leave noone with a bad taste in their mouth - everyone gets what they want, and is allowed to choose their own acceptable level of risk.
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.11 19:20:00 - [20] Nice idea, if I was definatley goind to start up another IPO afterwards then I'd go for it but I don't know for sure if I'd do it again, certainly not till after the new year, in which case the isk would just be sat there doing nothing for a few months. Still, good thinking. That would definatley cover all the angles.

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