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Scavok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.12 08:06:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Scavok on 12/10/2007 08:08:33
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Mongolia Jones Even better than your last post, you outdid yourself and even I learned a bit, nice work!!
Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
Conclusions
I realize this has been a brief entry, but it is an important one to support the claims of yesterday -- that neither side will see morale falter before the war is at their final stations.
Again, as I've stated before in your previous post, BoB is VERY susceptible to morale failures. No amount of hatred or loathing of an enemy can counter the destructive effects of finger pointing and blame within your own organization.
IMO, IF BoB is defeated, it will be because of the breakdown in morale.
I agree that bob is very vulnerable to a morale failure simply based on the core fundamentals of how you describe their alliance. An alliance of hardcore powergamers who thrive on victory is not stable if the centerpiece of their alliance (victory, always.) is removed. If that glue is removed the cohesion will shatter like glass.
Yeah, this conclusion that elitist powergamers form an unbreakable bond with each other is absolutely ridiculous. BoB is nothing more than LV with more space, more allies, and more isk. There's nothing I've seen so far in this war that's any different besides the scale, including the way defeats affect their morale (which they do and has become really predictable). It's especially true once you realize that nearly half of BoB are from LV these days.
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Gralgathor
White Wolf Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.10.12 08:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Scavok Yeah, this conclusion that elitist powergamers form an unbreakable bond with each other is absolutely ridiculous. BoB is nothing more than LV with more space, more allies, and more isk. There's nothing I've seen so far in this war that's any different besides the scale, including the way defeats affect their morale (which they do and has become really predictable). It's especially true once you realize that nearly half of BoB are from LV these days.
As a former LV member I must wholeheartedly disagree. LV lacked cohesion from the get-go. There were a few corps that pulled the weight of the whole alliance, and even within those corps there were divisions among players. So when LV was heavily pushed, fracture was inevitable.
BoB on the other hand seems to be a much more cohesive union that, despite heavy pressure, doesn't fracture. On the contrary, they only seem to become stronger in their internal bonds. -------
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.10.12 09:25:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gralgathor
Originally by: Scavok Yeah, this conclusion that elitist powergamers form an unbreakable bond with each other is absolutely ridiculous. BoB is nothing more than LV with more space, more allies, and more isk. There's nothing I've seen so far in this war that's any different besides the scale, including the way defeats affect their morale (which they do and has become really predictable). It's especially true once you realize that nearly half of BoB are from LV these days.
As a former LV member I must wholeheartedly disagree. LV lacked cohesion from the get-go. There were a few corps that pulled the weight of the whole alliance, and even within those corps there were divisions among players. So when LV was heavily pushed, fracture was inevitable.
BoB on the other hand seems to be a much more cohesive union that, despite heavy pressure, doesn't fracture. On the contrary, they only seem to become stronger in their internal bonds.
Are you not confusing the 'Old BoB' with the 'Current BoB'? A year/two years ago, maybe you were right. BoB was at what, 1200 characters, with high participation and universally high standards of recruitment. But look at what has happened in the past year. Ballooned to 2600+ members, recruiting people who I know to be complete idiots (not all of them, but there's a few of them that are without a doubt complete morons and idiots from personal knowledge). The mass recruiting alone is of course proof that they relaxed their standards a lot. ------------------------------------------------
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grindel
Caldari Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.12 13:35:00 -
[34]
You have obviously spent a lot of time researching and then writing this monograph. Very good job, it's an interesting read, and adds to the enjoyment of the gaming experience. Thank you for taking the time.
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DT3
The Huns
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Posted - 2007.10.12 15:01:00 -
[35]
Excellent write up. It has been a pleasure to read these threads. Keep up the good work.
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Damir36
Gallente PPN United Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.10.12 15:03:00 -
[36]
/me salutes the OP.
Brilliant reading and insightful writingstyle. Thanks for reminding me again why I play this game.
Me as many others are curious if writing this things is part of your RL occupation or if you just natural good at it.
Grn¯e Damir
Beware: German Link!:) Deutschprachige Piloten gesucht |
Rennard
Aku Soku Zan
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Posted - 2007.10.12 15:15:00 -
[37]
Nice writeup and objective approach. I look forward to read more.
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Murray Walker
Minmatar GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.10.12 16:01:00 -
[38]
My name is Murray Walker and I wholly approve of this product and/or service. Can't wait for part 3.
I would disagree as well on the point of morale-based fracturing, but for both sides. No one--in BoB OR GS--is truly invulnerable to "dude f**k this game" syndrome; far less susceptible, perhaps, but not invulnerable.
Admittedly I don't have anything to back that up with besides personal feelings, but I just thought I'd mention that.
Will send isku when I get home from work in a few hours. First CAOD post(s) I've enjoyed in a long time, good stuff.
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Welfare State
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.12 16:04:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Welfare State on 12/10/2007 16:05:45 You may end up addressing this at some point, but how each side uses propaganda and spying are very different.
I think most people would know about the GIA at this point in the war, wheras BoB's spying is much more low-key, or just doesn't operate on the same level as the Goonswarm spying ring.
edit: yeah it's worth noting that Goonswarm isn't impossible to break without blunt force. The titan mechanics and the general view of the game being "un-fun/un-fair" hurt goon turnout during the loss of Omist.
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Leya Marcsson
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Posted - 2007.10.12 16:35:00 -
[40]
Intresting read, thank you. Also nice to see some goon posts that arn't just stupit flames but well considered. Its about time for you to arrive in "theire eve" and make it ours.
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Gabriel Roberts
Minmatar Brecken Solutions
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Posted - 2007.10.12 16:37:00 -
[41]
While bob may be vulnerable like any other alliance to a moral breakdown, at their core they are a closely tied group of friends. Imho they were a much stronger group when they were around 1200, at the very least more effective. Much like MC is today.
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Natas Dog
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.12 16:43:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Leya Marcsson Intresting read, thank you. Also nice to see some goon posts that arn't just stupit flames but well considered. Its about time for you to arrive in "theire eve" and make it ours.
I think you'll find that for the most part, goons only tend to **** all over threads that are asking to be **** on. The OP is performing a pretty objective analysis of EVE warfare using what he knows of our war in the south, and doing it very well for a game where personal feelings do tend to get in the way of one's objectivity.
_______________________________________________________________ He who laughs last... is usually the one the joke was about. |
CrispyKritters
Caldari GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.10.12 16:49:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Leya Marcsson Intresting read, thank you. Also nice to see some goon posts that arn't just stupit flames but well considered. Its about time for you to arrive in "theire eve" and make it ours.
Posts like these just tempt me to crappost all over "theire eve" lets see now: -unidentified alt -horrible spelling (no speakie English isn't an excuse for these misspellings) -bringing up "goon posting" in an unrelated topic
Basically, you are just a hypocrite.
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Montasque
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.12 17:05:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Gabriel Roberts While bob may be vulnerable like any other alliance to a moral breakdown, at their core they are a closely tied group of friends. Imho they were a much stronger group when they were around 1200, at the very least more effective. Much like MC is today.
The make up of BoB has really changed in the last year. I donÆt see a lot of the old BoB guard on fleet ops, it seems to me that they have been mostly replaced by former LV.(shinra/finfleet)
I think the recruitment of new players was a double edged sword for BoB. They needed new blood just to compete in the war, but that new blood diluted the elite feel the alliance once had. I am also sure that the new blood caused friction with the old guard. The reason is that the BoB old guard thinks they are the elite of EvE, and now they have to share their prestige with people they look down upon.
And that is why I think the æelitistÆ reasoning behind BoBÆs cohesion isnÆt the answer. At this point I think what keeps BoB together more than anything else is their hate for RSF. They know this is a blood feud that will end with one of us dead; this is a total war and as such has degenerated to the point where ideological considerations are pointless.
We just love killing each other.
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WildSide
Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.10.12 17:24:00 -
[45]
I must agree that laterly I`ve seen fairly young bobbits. They might be alts ofc...or indu characters. Expessialy Black Eclipse Corp seem to have been filled with late 06 players doing a lot of "weird" thingys when it comes to pvp. However I think its their indu corp...so they might not have the same standards.
_______________________________ Vids produced by me
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Obeah
AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2007.10.12 18:28:00 -
[46]
Great read!
keep it coming
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coldkill
Gallente legion of qui Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.12 19:01:00 -
[47]
Interesting read. Keep it up.
Coldkill Friend of Ushra'Khan. |
Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.10.12 19:10:00 -
[48]
Another good read... can't fault the logic of your arguments and or the conclusions derived from them.
I, however, believe that the fervor that drives GoonSwarm is of BoB's own making. I do not believe that a BoB and GoonSwarm confrontation was inevitable, solely on account of their inherent ethos. In a parallel universe, I do believe it might have been possible for BoB and Goons to be on the same side. EVE is a fickly game and what appears one day to be a certainty, the next can be unthinkable.
Sooner or later an entity or group of entities was gonna take BoB head on.... that such an entity is GoonSwarm is more a matter of chance or randomness inherent in sociological behaviour than due to some inevitable clash of ideology.
I think it is naive to confuse hindsight with an ability to declare the inevitabilty of a certain set of conditions.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.12 19:14:00 -
[49]
Another entertaining and well thought out post.
While I agree with your arguments by and large, I think I disagree with your conclusion. You spend a lot of time laying out how broad cultural ties keep the power blocs together, but provide no reasoning why BoB should have this property. Goons have their SA ties, RA and TCF have their respective common languages, MC have their mercenary ethos, but what about BoB? The "drive to win" could never have that same effect- afterall, almost everyone in almost every alliance is driven to "win"; it's what competitive gaming is all about, both computer and otherwise. BoB's play style is only a slight extension- and refinement- of what everyone does. They don't have a common language, or a common out-of-EVE hobby. And they don't even have a common modus operandi- their corps range from pure communist to pure capitalist, and various in between.
I'm certainly not saying BoB lack survivability, because that'd be patently untrue. Even their bitterest enemies can't deny that they've been around a very long time, and have endured being on the losing end of this war for a fairly long few months now without any *****s showing. Quite the opposite- I'm saying BoB shows signs of solidity that cannot be explained by this particular philosophy. ------
Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts! |
N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.13 08:28:00 -
[50]
Great read once again, spot on, thanks.
/// Olivier C., providing fleet support since 1902. /// My Eve videos : http://etc.neocrome.net/eve /// |
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Naphtalia
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.10.13 10:47:00 -
[51]
First post I read in COAD for about... 15 months since I refused to participate in this forum section. Got linked in, don't regret reading.. good post.
For Freedom and Profit - Guristas Associates
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TWD
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.18 04:25:00 -
[52]
Edited by: TWD on 18/10/2007 04:28:39 Most of the 'old bob guard' is still in BoB.
I doubt BoB has more powergamers than other major alliances.
What has set us apart from other alliances in the past is that we continuously came up with creative new ways of beating our targets, while most other people were playing by the book or how the game was 'supposed' to be played. We laughed at those people. This includes always finding the most overpowered tactics, ships and setups. We've been slacking abit in that area the last months (or the game is truly balanced - yeah right) |
Montasque
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.18 05:19:00 -
[53]
Originally by: TWD Edited by: TWD on 18/10/2007 04:28:39 Most of the 'old bob guard' is still in BoB.
I doubt BoB has more powergamers than other major alliances.
What has set us apart from other alliances in the past is that we continuously came up with creative new ways of beating our targets, while most other people were playing by the book or how the game was 'supposed' to be played. We laughed at those people. This includes always finding the most overpowered tactics, ships and setups. We've been slacking abit in that area the last months (or the game is truly balanced - yeah right)
I do agree with you that BoB were one of the first groups to use æcreativeÆ measures to win. While your enemy was tied by some sort of code of honor you guys used any means necessary to achieve victory. This included pushing the limitations of the games mechanics, and a lot of cheesy tactics. You also had concise propaganda targeted to demoralize your enemies, while making you guys look like the golden gods of eve.
The difference from then and now is that you are now fighting people who are a lot like you.
And about the make up of BoB, IÆm just judging by fleet ops in the last 3 months or so. Most of the people IÆve flown against have been old LV, which is funny since one war to the next my overview is still filled with the same people, just with different corp or alliance tags. Also some of your superstars have gone MIA. WhereÆs digital communist? I miss his 20 page rants.
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Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.10.18 07:16:00 -
[54]
You said goon humor is apealling mostly to males in their early to mid twenties. I resent that. I think you're female too. Goon humor is most appealing to 10-15 yr olds (of both sexes).
-Bart
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.10.18 10:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Montasque
I do agree with you that BoB were one of the first groups to use æcreativeÆ measures to win. While your enemy was tied by some sort of code of honor you guys used any means necessary to achieve victory. This included pushing the limitations of the games mechanics, and a lot of cheesy tactics. You also had concise propaganda targeted to demoralize your enemies, while making you guys look like the golden gods of eve.
The difference from then and now is that you are now fighting people who are a lot like you.
Not " a lot like". Exactly like.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
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