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Manthicore
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:30:00 -
[1]
Hi! So the new changes on torps buff them for PVP and nerf them for PVE just becouse the new max range is around 30km even if the DPS is more, will the cruise vs. torps debate be win by the cruise finally ? Torp Raven PVE pilots, what do you think?
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Dragon Lord
Caldari
InQuest Ascension
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:21:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 13/10/2007 13:22:21
No torps still win, but you have to use jav torps and t2 siege launchers, i am getting a little less dmg but the fact my torps go about 3 times faster makes up for it as defenders take out far less of them.
Before nerf with 7 cn siege, 2 dread bucs and a kaikka bcu plus a +5% dmg implant u get 984dps
After nerf with t2 siege javs and maxed torp spec skill + same setup as above in lows and implants i get 930 ish dps plus my torps move at 8km/s instead of 3.
So for me its a very nice change although if u cant use t2 torps dont bother using torps at all in pve
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Manthicore
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:00:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Dragon Lord
So for me its a very nice change although if u cant use t2 torps dont bother using torps at all in pve
Yes, this. For PVE (mission running the most) now the torp tree is something to think about if you haven't the T2 torp skills yet...humm this is a nerf to the everlasting thread "cruise vs. torps" , damn CCP :D
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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:35:00 -
[4]
Torps get buffed a lot, and there is immediatly a nerf-whine thread in every section of the forum.
I bet it is a busy day in Motsu.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.13 15:10:00 -
[5]
Well, it's still pretty crappy that the base range is 20km, same as HAMs.
Ok, so you do get 30km on Raven, but... bleah.
30km base and 45km on max-skills Raven would have been more appropriate.
Or, heck, change Raven's flight speed bonus to something else, but put base torp reach at 30km.
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Manthicore
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Posted - 2007.10.13 15:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Torps get buffed a lot, and there is immediatly a nerf-whine thread in every section of the forum.
I bet it is a busy day in Motsu.
Buffed for PVP, for mission runners I don't think so (except T2), or you could explain the buff in PVE (missions not ratting)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.13 15:26:00 -
[7]
Actually, it's not even a PvP buff, at THAT maximum reach.
And with Caldari ships being the slow-ass-ships they are, ouch, BAD.
If they WOULD correct Caldari ship agility/mass to make them second-fastest after Minmatar, ok, I'd dig that.
_
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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.10.13 15:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Manthicore
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Torps get buffed a lot, and there is immediatly a nerf-whine thread in every section of the forum.
I bet it is a busy day in Motsu.
Buffed for PVP, for mission runners I don't think so (except T2), or you could explain the buff in PVE (missions not ratting)
Torps have allways been the "short range" high damage BS missile. Instead of just nerfing them to make them in line with other short range weapons, the changes indicate that they will get a dps boost of over 30%.
This means you have a possible damage output of around 950 dps, with the damage type of your choice, to around 30km. And by just switching ammo you can reach 150km and still do 700dps. This is without counting drones, implants or rigs.
I dont really see any weapon that will be able to match this.
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DrDooms
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Posted - 2007.10.13 16:40:00 -
[9]
Well, DPS isn't the right way to judge the effectiveness in missions and standard torps will have bigger radius so less damage -> must use TP with good skill and implants to match. The worst thing is that you have to be so near to the npc to do so much damage and this means more time to reach them, the tank will be under pressure and the raven is so damn slow. Javellin will be the answer to long range, but as stated, only if you have T2 right now, otherwise cruise will be better now (for tank and long range safety) |
Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.10.13 17:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DrDooms
Well, DPS isn't the right way to judge the effectiveness in missions and standard torps will have bigger radius so less damage -> must use TP with good skill and implants to match. The worst thing is that you have to be so near to the npc to do so much damage and this means more time to reach them, the tank will be under pressure and the raven is so damn slow. Javellin will be the answer to long range, but as stated, only if you have T2 right now, otherwise cruise will be better now (for tank and long range safety)
Before there was debate if torps or cruise missiles were better in missions, because they were pretty much the same. And everyone agreed that T2 ammo was useless.
If these changes comes come to TQ, torpedoes will be very powerfull, and T2 ammo will let you do missions as good or better than before.
If you chose to use a short range weapon in a mission, you should really fit for it, it doesnt matter if it is torps/blasters/pulses or ACs. But in the case of torpedoes, the changes you need to do are minimal. 1 target painter if you want really high damage (or TP drones, or a wingman that fits one) and some T2 ammo to use when needed in cargo.
And cruise/rails/artys/beams will give you the safety of staying out of range.
Tbh I dont think the new stats for the torpedoes are finalized yet, I think they will get tuned down a bit before they hit TQ.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.13 17:21:00 -
[11]
I proposed a vaguely similar change almost 3 months ago in the Game Developement section.
It was flamed to hell and back, and it was much more "lenient" as the current changes.
_
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Voin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 18:50:00 -
[12]
30 sec/ 6 sec = 5!!! times... Never for over 2,5 years my expirience did see so high nerf per cut... What grass CCP smoked at this time???
p.s. I'll be fine with that 30 km range as I like close combat, but what new pilot's gonna do at the begining?
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.13 19:06:00 -
[13]
Time to put the cruises back on the Phoon for missions.
I find it slightly humorous that my large T1 ACs will now outreach my Torps. Oh well....
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Time to put the cruises back on the Phoon for missions.
I find it slightly humorous that my large T1 ACs will now outreach my Torps. Oh well....
I was thinking just the opposite. That I should hang up the CNR and try t2 launchers+javelins with a phoon down in Amarr neighborhoods. With the close range drones are very usable, ACs tear stuff up, and sansha/bloods/drones are easy to tank even with a 4 slot armor tank. I know that because I had to use a 4 slot armor tank vs. those guys on my Raven while training up shield skills.
Just the torps would give me nearly 600 dps with my skills (can't use 3x bcu, gotta leave room for a tank).
I have a pretty big pile of SP in navigation, so it may just work.
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Dragon Lord
Caldari
InQuest Ascension
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.14 11:52:00 -
[15]
I like the changes pvp tends to be in close and personal anyway unless its a sniper fit and torps were always useless for sniping. You have to get within 30kms to scram and web which places you in range of near 1000dps from a well skilled torp raven, that for me is awsome.
however rge changes to normal torps makes them useless in pve, trust me ive tried on the test server and you spend all ur time trying to close down npcs.
However Javs have now become awsome maxed skills 3 t2 bcus and implants you can get 900+ dps from a cnr with javs.
Now remember javs go almost as fast as cruise missiles and mine have a range of over 140kms, they have become awsome for pve, and proberbly pvp as well.
All in all very nice changes and id be happy if they left them as they are on test server, and i do have faction and officer siege launchers on my current cnr which would become useless after rev 3 hits.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.14 13:18:00 -
[16]
So nobody thinks they'll change Jav torps as well, that they just haven't gotten around to it yet?
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
BROTHER'S WORD
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Posted - 2007.10.14 14:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Qui Shon
So nobody thinks they'll change Jav torps as well, that they just haven't gotten around to it yet?
They should, or cruises would be kinda silly...
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.14 15:49:00 -
[18]
mm. Just when I had gotten up torp+support skills to 4, spent loads of time planning ship fitting combos, I now have to redo them all, as well as train another month of torp skills, something I had not intended to waste any more time on then neccessary. And once I have T2 torps they'll **** them up too.
Should've just stayed in my Domi, I guess, since now the Ravens output will be capped as well, albeit a little higher then Domis. Zero sense in spending isk on faction launchers if these changes come through.
Brilliant going, thanks for your well documented idea Akita.
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Manthicore
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Posted - 2007.10.14 16:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Qui Shon
I now have to redo them all, as well as train another month of torp skills, something I had not intended to waste any more time on then neccessary. And once I have T2 torps they'll **** them up too
Same here, screwed my training for torps, a month more just for javelin and same DPS in missions is a waste of time to me, so cruise FTW (and tanking better)... but CCP will have tha final word about this :)
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.10.14 17:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T
If they WOULD correct Caldari ship agility/mass to make them second-fastest after Minmatar, ok, I'd dig that.
Usually your ideas are very reasonable, Akita, but this isn't one of those times.
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SexehGallente
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.14 21:03:00 -
[21]
With the old exp radius 1 target painter would increase damage on some npc BS's by up to 50 or more damage... now you would need 2 TP to get the same damage from hitting a npc bs. No more 1 shot npc BC kills with 2 TP's either.
Been said theres a 0.6% increase in damage on a 400 sig radius ship, so useless ROF buff without atleast 1 TP in pvp = even less tank. This thing is supposed to somehow stay outta 24KM scram certain death range with 30km range. Its going to be useless solo and there will be other small gang setups better then one with a raven in it.
Also has anyone calculated reload times on the DPS fiqures? I dont know how long a gun can fire before reload but 16 torps at 6 sec rof means every 96 seconds you reload.
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Swamp Ziro
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.18 19:49:00 -
[22]
Definitely cruises win this time.
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