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Matrixcvd Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.10.17 13:55:00 - [1] We all know how useless a BS is to fast hacs and inty's, so i was thinking about ways to counter fast ships other than: fly fast ships, have friends. What would you guys think about this. Basically BS's, and only BS's, could use some more specialized drone options to disuade fast ships from orbiting and calling in friends to take out the BS. BS's are given another class of drones, and an additional drone bay, Fast Attack, which have improved tracking and velocity and do damage only to fast moving targets. Increase Heavy web drone velocity decrease size and increase manueverability. Include a warp scrambling drone with an range only of 24km from the BS. An overall increase in drone velocity should also happen since more ships are flying in the 5-7km range. Also increasing Drone bays all around would help The point is, is to give BS's options, and i think if balanced properly would make the fights more interesting as the aggressor would have to contend with a level of defense more up to speed. What do you guys think?
Barbaro55a Caldari Os Lobos	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:00:00 - [2] No one ship in Eve is suposed to be "ballanced" as you put it. You NEED friends to survive, or be very lucky and allways come up against people with the wrong set up for the the fight. Originally by: ISD Valorem If someone has hurt you out of game then please talk to family, friends or Police (if necessary) Kind regards Valorem
Sha4d13	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:02:00 - [3] I think that if you want to take a battleship out alone and be able to deal with everything, I should be able to do the same in a ceptor. Therefore- give ceptors a special Anti BS additional slot, containing a module which multiplies damage against any BS by 25.
endeavour x Amesha Spentaz Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:04:00 - [4] Edited by: endeavour x on 17/10/2007 14:03:56 I want to be able to kill station services in my Merlin. Edit;- Solo
Lowanaera Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:04:00 - [5] Quote: so i was thinking about ways to counter fast ships other than: fly fast ships, have friends. Why do there need to be other counters? The game intentionally isn't designed for you to tool around alone in a BS with impunity.
Die Unknown Amarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:05:00 - [6] BS aren't solo pwn mobile. Just like capitals need support, so do BS. They are perfectly balanced as they dish out huge damage and great tank at expense of speed and tracking.
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Matrixcvd BS's are given another class of drones, and an additional drone bay, Fast Attack, which have improved tracking and velocity and do damage only to fast moving targets. You mean T2 light drones? Rest is way overpowered. - Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
Matrixcvd Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:15:00 - [8] I am not talking about going around as a solo pwn mobile with the intent on killing everything in its path, this isnt to create the next "nanophoon" set up. the point i am getting at is there is alot of complexity to the game mechanics that never gets used simply because a ship can travel 6-8km a second. And what most always happens, 1 BS gets locked down by an inty and you have to sit there and wait 5 minutes for his friends to come or your friends to come, or worse, a vaga whittling down a BS because he can't hit it. This is about creating a defensive system to encourage some sort of battle instead of, "let me hold you down till my friends get there and 15 ships pound you to pieces" BS's are only used to hit POS's and Snipe at gates. I am not trying to "balance" everything in this game but it has become all about who has the fastest ship, and to give a class of ships which no longer can handle/manuever or readily achieve the speeds of 1 races ship, then i think it would bring a more dynamic combat situation instead of the roadrunner syndrome which is faced everyday
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:20:00 - [9] Neuts are a good defense, so are Sensor damps and ECM. The greatest weakness of smaller ships is their small cap and weak sensor strength. Exploit one of these two and you should open a window to at least escape the tackler. If you want to kill one, it takes a bit of pilot error (or lag) to catch one, but if you get a web on them, then ya, you can chew them.
Cpt toast	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Lowanaera Quote: so i was thinking about ways to counter fast ships other than: fly fast ships, have friends. Why do there need to be other counters? The game intentionally isn't designed for you to tool around alone in a BS with impunity. That right is reserved for interceptors ;)

Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:27:00 - [11] Just use a BS with lots of mid slots. Overloaded faction web, damps , drone nav mod. Drone nav rigs and faction heavy neuts if you mean business. Things are balanced already. Originally by: F'nog One does not simply log into Jita.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Matrixcvd I am not trying to "balance" everything in this game but it has become all about who has the fastest ship, and to give a class of ships which no longer can handle/manuever or readily achieve the speeds of 1 races ship, then i think it would bring a more dynamic combat situation instead of the roadrunner syndrome which is faced everyday Sounds good, but I don't think anybody is listening.
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Atius Tirawa Neuts are a good defense, so are Sensor damps and ECM. The greatest weakness of smaller ships is their small cap and weak sensor strength. Exploit one of these two and you should open a window to at least escape the tackler. If you want to kill one, it takes a bit of pilot error (or lag) to catch one, but if you get a web on them, then ya, you can chew them. Also gotta count overheated True Sansha/Domination webs, which reach out to the ranges that nanoships fly at. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:55:00 - [14] Quote: counter fast ships other than: fly fast ships, have friends. Those are two very good methods. Why do we need more? If you want adjudication for a battlewagon vs. and inty or hac 1v1 your chances should be almost non existant like that 1%wrecking chance...thats the way it should be. If they call in friends, then you should be doing the same. If we make battleships able to kill smaller faster ships, then why would I fly anything other than a battleship or highest dollar vessel. I am tired of people trying to make turn this game into a linear powergrinding levelfest. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Sharupak Quote: counter fast ships other than: fly fast ships, have friends. Those are two very good methods. Why do we need more? If you want adjudication for a battlewagon vs. and inty or hac 1v1 your chances should be almost non existant like that 1%wrecking chance...thats the way it should be. If they call in friends, then you should be doing the same. If we make battleships able to kill smaller faster ships, then why would I fly anything other than a battleship or highest dollar vessel. I am tired of people trying to make turn this game into a linear powergrinding levelfest. Absolutely- this is not a game of- get bigger ship, beat everyone else. (or be level 50 wizard and beat all lower levels...)
Miss Xerox	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:00:00 - [16] BS need BS sized webs, that simple. Unless you're willing to spend in excess of 10b on an 'officer' web (why bother if you can just get a handful of throwaway carriers for 1/2 the cost) you've really got zero options for dealing with anything going 3km/s or more. BS size webs should reach out to 20km, w/ faction ones reaching out to 30. Their effect is moderate, 50%-80% compared to short range webs, but it gives a BS an option and ties up yet more precious mid slots (or even make it a high slot item).
Sha4d13	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:04:00 - [17] Why should they? Unless a ceptor is allowed to scram at 40? If you choose to fly a BS without any support through low sec or 0-0 you are taking a big risk. your choice. Dont ask for the game to be made simpler to bail you out. So far we have- friends, scouts, t2 drones, neuts, fitting smaller guns, fitting stabs etc as ways of dealing with ceptors. There is no reason why a BS pilot should be able to take on every other ship with impunity. The whole point of a BS is that it is a big lump. It tankls and hits hard- and in return its slow and cumbersome. Meanwhile a ceptor is quick and hard to hit, but is most unlikely to take out a BS solo. It has little tank, hits like a fly on your windscreen and runs out of cap easily.
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:05:00 - [18] web drones
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:06:00 - [19] Webbie, tech 2 light drones. That's about it really these days and of course these things don't work really well anymore. Your best bet is a gang. --------------
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Miss Xerox BS need BS sized webs, that simple. Unless you're willing to spend in excess of 10b on an 'officer' web (why bother if you can just get a handful of throwaway carriers for 1/2 the cost) you've really got zero options for dealing with anything going 3km/s or more. BS size webs should reach out to 20km, w/ faction ones reaching out to 30. Their effect is moderate, 50%-80% compared to short range webs, but it gives a BS an option and ties up yet more precious mid slots (or even make it a high slot item). Somehow I doubt that all officer webs cost 10B. In fact the 25km versions probably cost less than a billion. Also, there ARE options if you care to look for 10 seconds. 1) Heavy neuts (a Curse can go with mediums with its range bonus) 2) Run them into something solid like an asteroid, MWD, overheat web, they're dead meat. 3) Wait for them to make the slightest mistake 4) Overheated faction web 5) MWD straight at them, hope their transversal drops 6) Warrior IIs, possibly w/ drone nav computers. 7) Sensor damps/ECM 8) Some precision missiles can hit the slower nanoships 9) Get a buddy in a sniper BS to come in at 100km, sensor boost, and insta-pop them. 10) Huginn/Rapier 11) AutoSabre might be able to kill the slower ones 12) Tracking disruptors ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.

I SoStoned	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Sha4d13 Why should they? Unless a ceptor is allowed to scram at 40? Checked changes on Sisi lately? Inties will be getting some very nice changes with the upcoming patch, enabling them to scram at 30km, more if they spend the extra ISK (see Domi warp disruptor prices after this change was announced. BIG jump). I guess a web that gives -50% at 30km, but usable only by BS and thus gimping their other EW/shield tank options, would be viable. As it stands right now the webbing drones simply can't touch an inty, or even a moderately quick cruiser.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:11:00 - [22] If webbing drones worked on every inty -every BS would run them, and inties would be helpless to tackle BS- which is their primary role.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Matrixcvd I am not talking about going around as a solo pwn mobile with the intent on killing everything in its path, this isnt to create the next "nanophoon" set up. the point i am getting at is there is alot of complexity to the game mechanics that never gets used simply because a ship can travel 6-8km a second. And what most always happens, 1 BS gets locked down by an inty and you have to sit there and wait 5 minutes for his friends to come or your friends to come, or worse, a vaga whittling down a BS because he can't hit it. This is about creating a defensive system to encourage some sort of battle instead of, "let me hold you down till my friends get there and 15 ships pound you to pieces" BS's are only used to hit POS's and Snipe at gates. I am not trying to "balance" everything in this game but it has become all about who has the fastest ship, and to give a class of ships which no longer can handle/manuever or readily achieve the speeds of 1 races ship, then i think it would bring a more dynamic combat situation instead of the roadrunner syndrome which is faced everyday Your fundamental assumptions are so we need to correct those first. The whole point of a tackler is to hold down a ship, if you give battleships an easy win against them interceptors are completely pointless. Secondly, battleships are not "only used to hit POS's and Snipe at gates". Just because you're in a battleship doesn't mean you get to win vs. smaller ships. An interceptor that can pin you down without you being able to kill it is fine as long as it can't kill you solo either. Unless you royally screw up your setup this is true. Besides, a set of Warriors can probably wear down just about any interceptor eventually. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:12:00 - [24] It's probably been mentioned, but there is a counter: small/medium guns. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:13:00 - [25] A drone bay full of light ECM drones. A damp if you have a 5th mid. A heavy neut if you have the fitting room. If a frig/nano cruiser is attacking your BS he probably has a gang (because you should be able to tank till backup arives if he dosent), killing him is not a priority, GTFO is. Jam, damp, neut and warp the hell out. (or deagress and jump/dock)
I SoStoned	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Acoco Osiris Originally by: Miss Xerox BS need BS sized webs, that simple. Unless you're willing to spend in excess of 10b on an 'officer' web (why bother if you can just get a handful of throwaway carriers for 1/2 the cost) you've really got zero options for dealing with anything going 3km/s or more. BS size webs should reach out to 20km, w/ faction ones reaching out to 30. Their effect is moderate, 50%-80% compared to short range webs, but it gives a BS an option and ties up yet more precious mid slots (or even make it a high slot item). Somehow I doubt that all officer webs cost 10B. In fact the 25km versions probably cost less than a billion. Also, there ARE options if you care to look for 10 seconds. 1) Heavy neuts (a Curse can go with mediums with its range bonus) 2) Run them into something solid like an asteroid, MWD, overheat web, they're dead meat. 3) Wait for them to make the slightest mistake 4) Overheated faction web 5) MWD straight at them, hope their transversal drops 6) Warrior IIs, possibly w/ drone nav computers. 7) Sensor damps/ECM 8) Some precision missiles can hit the slower nanoships 9) Get a buddy in a sniper BS to come in at 100km, sensor boost, and insta-pop them. 10) Huginn/Rapier 11) AutoSabre might be able to kill the slower ones 12) Tracking disruptors Yes, all viable alternatives. But it also points out a glaring flaw that an attempt was made to curb with a patch 6mo ago... speed tanking. BS have been slowed considerably, making them vulnerable to cruise missiles and even torps & heavy drones for the most part. Unfortunately cruisers can still outrun cruiser-class missiles and medium drones with ease, and frigates can outpace even the highest velocity frig-class missiles and light drones. I'm fine with speed tanking, but not speed invulerability. Lacking a minnie recon in the flight group means that such ships are for the greater part untouchable unless they screw up and get within 10km.
iiOs	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Matrixcvd We all know how useless a BS is to fast hacs and inty's, so i was thinking about ways to counter fast ships other than: fly fast ships, have friends. What would you guys think about this. Basically BS's, and only BS's, could use some more specialized drone options to disuade fast ships from orbiting and calling in friends to take out the BS. BS's are given another class of drones, and an additional drone bay, Fast Attack, which have improved tracking and velocity and do damage only to fast moving targets. Increase Heavy web drone velocity decrease size and increase manueverability. Include a warp scrambling drone with an range only of 24km from the BS. An overall increase in drone velocity should also happen since more ships are flying in the 5-7km range. Also increasing Drone bays all around would help The point is, is to give BS's options, and i think if balanced properly would make the fights more interesting as the aggressor would have to contend with a level of defense more up to speed. What do you guys think? lol Click me and get isk
Morn Judith Caldari Sovereigns of Destiny	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Matrixcvd We all know how useless a BS is to fast hacs and inty's, so i was thinking about ways to counter fast ships other than: fly fast ships, have friends. What would you guys think about this. Basically BS's, and only BS's, could use some more specialized drone options to disuade fast ships from orbiting and calling in friends to take out the BS. BS's are given another class of drones, and an additional drone bay, Fast Attack, which have improved tracking and velocity and do damage only to fast moving targets. Increase Heavy web drone velocity decrease size and increase manueverability. Include a warp scrambling drone with an range only of 24km from the BS. An overall increase in drone velocity should also happen since more ships are flying in the 5-7km range. Also increasing Drone bays all around would help The point is, is to give BS's options, and i think if balanced properly would make the fights more interesting as the aggressor would have to contend with a level of defense more up to speed. What do you guys think? I don't think you understand what you're saying. All ships need a weakness. Battleships are large, and when solo should be able to take out most other ships smaller than it, depending on the pilots. Inties are small, and should able to die by a battleship. So they give them some speed, allowing them to be too fast for the battleships weapons. So the battleship fits a web, some damps, and T2 light drones. What else does a battleship need? Why increase the battleships chances against something that has 1/10 it's hitpoints? Now, the nano-HACS are very annoying. The nano nerf didn't go as far as some thought it would, which is okay. A battleship can't have just one weakness. Fit a web, light drones, damps and smartbombs. Don't fly alone. Don't fly anything you can't afford to lose. I'm sorry, but it really is that easy. Your idea would completely throw everything off balance. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:19:00 - [29] There arent many nano hac pilots that enjoy precision missiles, neuts, and ecm....
Matrixcvd Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.10.17 18:21:00 - [30] Ok i could quote most of you but lets recap 1. T2 lights don't do enough damage and are not fast enough for Today's speed tankers 2. Web drones are too slow to catch anything 3. Friends aren't an option all the time and not part of this discussion 4. Heat flat out is not good enough, even with level 4 13km web range is not good enough when they can scram/orbit at 22km 5. Ridiculously fitting the ship is not an option in this thought experiment 6. ECM is nerfed except for scorp 7. Not flying alone, not flying anything you cant loose do not help in this discussion 8. Neuts will do the job in most cases, and that appears to be only option The concept of drone speed keeping pace with ship speed is one aspect of this. The other is that its set up not to be the IWIN button, but provide a level of combat associated with an encounter between a normal fit BS and an Inty/hac/recon. The drones wouldn't be able to wreck but should provide some defense and some offense. Lets face it, because this is the whole skill level and game play for a speed ship, 1. Orbit target outside web range but under optimal 2. Shoot,web,scram Nanophoon (extinct) --> Dead BS in about a minute Hac --> after a few minutes dead BS Inty --> Dead BS after friends show up It would be nice to have drones that can engage, either cause enough damage to make the inty think can he actually take out the drones, while keeping the ship locked down, with combinations of drones coming at him that are CLOSE to his speed, while the BS is recalling, sending out different combinations, and there is actually a fight going on. At the bare minimum its the speed of the drones that have not kept pace with the increasing speed of ships. Speed tankers and vaga pilots flame all you want but i think a nice dynamic and interesting gameplay could be developed instead of the "I can go 45km/s and nothing can touch me, you should have brought friends, you should have been flying a huginn, you should be flying my ship" you should blah blah blah.



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