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Why doesn't autopilot use WTZ?

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Shakuul Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Shakuul on 19/10/2007 12:49:41 First of all, I'm not saying it should; I'm just looking for a rationale as to why it doesn't. Anyway, these were some rationales that seemed plausible to me. Why autopilot doesnÆt use WTZ: 1)It punishes laziness 2)ItÆs actually a form of grinding 3)To make the universe seem larger 4)To give pirates a bigger chance to kill people 5)(New) It would encourage more AFK / You might as well just add a "play the game for me" button? (1) In EVE if you want to accomplish something, even something as simple as moving your ship from point A to point B, you usually have to incur some cost, in the form of ISK, extra time spent at the computer, increased risk of being ganked, skill training time, etc. Ideally, the gain of the accomplishment is proportional to its cost; longer ships take longer to train, to make more ISK NPCing you have to spend more time at the computer, and so on. I guess I just donÆt believe the reward (being at point B in the least time possible, given your ship and ship setup) justifies the cost (having to constantly click warp, jump, etc, not being able to devote undivided attention to other tasks). It seems counter-intuitive that you should have to do something so tedious to do something as simple as move around. Not having autopilot warp to zero seems somewhat similar to removing the stack all button or the select all button, so you had to move each item individually into your hangar. It makes something tedious to do (moving large groups of items) but doesnÆt really make the game any better. (2) I like EVE because in many cases you can avoid grinding. Basic character advancement requires relatively little grinding; except for earning the isk for the skill and clicking ætrain,Æ itÆs a fairly passive process. Some decent justifications for grinding can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_%28gaming%29 . However, these donÆt really seem to apply to something as basic as travel. (3) This really isnÆt true. If autopilot uses warp to zero, it will be negligibly faster than a human manually warping to zero (since computers can respond faster to arrival at a gate to begin jumping, whereas a human will take a significant fraction of a second). It does make the universe larger for lazy people, but this rationale is covered by (1). (4) Again, this only means pirates have a bigger chance to kill lazy people, and they can already kill lazy people (such as empire indys carrying valuable cargo) on one side of the gate, so I really donÆt see how this helps pirates significantly. (5) This assumes AFK is bad. I don't see AFK as a bad thing in something like skill training, travel seems like something similar. Having autopilot use WTZ isn't anywhere near playing the game for you, so I don't think this rationale is compelling.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:46:00 - [2] Quick answer: Warp to zero was a solution to people complaining about pirates/time taken to move stuff. Auto-WTZ would encourage more AFK. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Auto-WTZ would encourage more AFK. autopilot is NOT WTZ so CCP makes money. when will you guys understand that EVERYTHING in ANY MMO is done based on this principle: the more time players play, the more money the company makes.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Shakuul Why autopilot doesnÆt use WTZ: Risk/Reward Risk - Gettng blown up while afk Reward - being able to move stuff afk -AS
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Kayna Eelai autopilot is NOT WTZ so CCP makes money. when will you guys understand that EVERYTHING in ANY MMO is done based on this principle: the more time players play, the more money the company makes. When it becomes the truth. No company, would prioritize the wellfare of players over the cash. Because if people are too unhappy, they leave, and covering for the loss of even one players subscription, would require quite a lot of time from other accounts to compensate. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:57:00 - [6] Originally by: Kayna Eelai when will you guys understand that EVERYTHING in ANY MMO is done based on this principle: the more time players play, the more money the company makes. Eh? How does that work? I pay 15Ç a month regardless of how many hours i spend on the game. If anything, playing more is causing more server stress, which increases the need for better servers. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Marsman37X Amarr Alder Space Pioneers	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:58:00 - [7] WTZ was introduced to get everyone to delete their zillions of bookmarks, not to make autopiloting quicker! 2 Years and no sig hi-jack \o/
infraX Caldari Endgame.	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Quick answer: Warp to zero was a solution to people complaining about pirates/time taken to move stuff. Auto-WTZ would encourage more AFK. Wrong. WTZ was a solution to the zillions of insta bookmarks clogging up the database and causing lag.
Neth'Rae Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Sheriff Jones Auto-WTZ would encourage more AFK. autopilot is NOT WTZ so CCP makes money. when will you guys understand that EVERYTHING in ANY MMO is done based on this principle: the more time players play, the more money the company makes. Yeah, because I pay 5$/hour to play eve, right? -.- And if you are comparing it to other games who adds long grind so it will take a long time to reach max level, that doesn't apply here, you can't reach a max level when new skills are added all the time.. And that would take years anyway and has nothing to do with autopilot.. "th-ere.. w-as... re..ally.. a caa-ke.."
Aceoil Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:22:00 - [10] Edited by: Aceoil on 19/10/2007 22:22:09 eve-search is your friend. http://eve-search.com/thread/425385/page/1 Quote: Razor: Tell me about Warp to 0 km. Magnus: It's coming. We will remove any bookmark you personally have that is within 40 km of a celestial object, because you no longer need them. Bookmarks are a major problem, the are the cause of a lot of the lag that you experience. There is an incredible amount of bookmark copying taking place in the game, and the stress it puts on the database is enormous. It's more stressful than any other single activity in the game. We will also put a limit on the number of bookmarks that a person can have in the game.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:25:00 - [11] end all answer WTZ was created so people wouldn't need insta bms before this autopilot didn't use insta bms, so when they introduced the option to warp to zero to get rid of bms, they kept autopilot the same. If you actually just make an overview setting with just gates, you can warp yourself gate to gate on a journey while reading wiki, or the forums, or watching TV and not even realise the journey taking place. i've made 22jumps before and only remember the first 3 and the last one. ---
Tammarr	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:32:00 - [12] I'd love autopilot wtz... do courier missions all day long without having to bother even a hint of my time beyond 'dock' and move item to cargo =)
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:39:00 - [13] Fly a ship with a MWD, put MWD in F1 slot, tape F1 key down. Win. ________ "It's a good day to die!" Free cake and punch to whomever signs my sig!
Shakuul Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:40:00 - [14] People are saying that WTZ was created to avoid bookmark copying lag. I know; I was around when they implemented the solution. I'm just wondering why WTZ isn't used for autopilot as well (not why from a historical point of view). The common "risk/reward" justification really doesn't seem relevant. There is some tradeoff with risk/reward when choosing a profession, but not for things like skill training (its riskless since theres no uncertainty). The lack of autopilot WTZ just seems like an unnecessarily tedious aspect of the game.
Price Watcher	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:41:00 - [15] Sheesh! Originally by: Kayna Eelai autopilot is NOT WTZ so CCP makes money. That makes no sense. We pay in advance and CCP has made its money even if we never bother to log in during the pre-paid time period. CCP does not make more money if we AFK and do not warp to zero. POST WITH YOUR ALT! The Shame o' The Galaxy
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Shakuul People are saying that WTZ was created to avoid bookmark copying lag. I know; I was around when they implemented the solution. I'm just wondering why WTZ isn't used for autopilot as well (not why from a historical point of view). The common "risk/reward" justification really doesn't seem relevant. There is some tradeoff with risk/reward when choosing a profession, but not for things like skill training (its riskless since theres no uncertainty). The lack of autopilot WTZ just seems like an unnecessarily tedious aspect of the game. read my post they wanted to keep the game the same but remove bookmarks, autopilot never used bookmarks, so it's not going to use wtz. where as players paying attention can warp to zero just like they cuz use their insta bms. ---
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:45:00 - [17] WTZ was introduced when CCP did removed lots of Bookmarks, and the need to make BMs close to gates and such. BMs have effect on the server strain. To compensate WTZ was introduced. However, WTZ is not part of the autopilot since CCP promotes active gameplay and not AFK piloting. So if you are actively piloting your ship you have this choice available to you. I you are afk, you dont. WTZ is acompromise between the needs of the players to have BMs close to gates to shorten travel times and avoid the "ebil piwates" and the CCPs wish for the gameplay, like active piloting etc. That is why you have WTZ with active gameplay and not while AFK piloting. Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:51:00 - [18] people should be glad there is WTZ. BMing WTZ points was considered an exploit in the begining, and WTZ was introduced to ease lag and to give players what they wanted (WTZ). I am ok with AFK WTZ if CCP takes away concorde. But as long as there is so much protection in Empire and low-sec, AFKers need to haul the 15K and incure that risk.
Julius Romanus Amarr Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Fly a ship with a MWD, put MWD in F1 slot, tape F1 key down. Win. Do it in a tackler inty, set course for safer. It's actually quite fast. -- All these graphs show is how bad the apocalypse is with different kinds of weapons. -Dr Jigglez
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:58:00 - [20] Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 19/10/2007 23:00:48 Insta-BMs were technically an exploit as they were never intended to be used the way they did, and many people weren't happy that it was possible at all (but used it anyway) CCP HAD to remove instas some way. They had 2 choices: 1- Remove Instas, Keep warp to 15km (as originally intended) 2- Remove Instas, Add Warp to 0km They ended up going for 2. As a slight compromise, you wouldn't be able to AFK-travel that way. I personally would have preffered it if they went with option 1 (and i'm a freighter pilot ) but as the majority of EVE's players live in Hi-Sec, the support for WTZ was overwhelming, with anyone who opposed it (notably pirates, though i'm not one myself) got spammed to death by comments such as "aww upset cause u wont be able to get cheap ganks?" and the like, which to be fair is pretty pathetic. I still dislike WTZ to this day, even. -----
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.19 23:06:00 - [21] Edited by: Le Skunk on 19/10/2007 23:05:49 Originally by: Tammarr I'd love autopilot wtz... do courier missions all day long without having to bother even a hint of my time beyond 'dock' and move item to cargo =) Agreed I think we should actualy have an auto dock - set destination to a station rather then a system. Lets not have ships hangin at gates now! Also some sort of auto accept mission and auto undock. SKUNK
gojwer	Posted - 2007.10.19 23:15:00 - [22] Edited by: gojwer on 19/10/2007 23:17:45 Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Sheriff Jones Auto-WTZ would encourage more AFK. autopilot is NOT WTZ so CCP makes money. when will you guys understand that EVERYTHING in ANY MMO is done based on this principle: the more time players play, the more money the company makes. so you dont know how the internet works. the time you spend online connected is costing THEM. you pay for your pipeline to them via your personal ISP, and they pay for their ability to send information to you(their pipeline). do they want to pay more and more money for people to sit there 23/7 afk? no. lines are LEASED based on the amount of bandwidth you use, and their is either a cutoff point, or you get enough overhead but possibly waste that money, or you get overage charges (think texting with cell phones). In the best world, an MMO would want you to pay as much as possible while spending as little time as possible playing. that would be the true money maker. if you're not convinced by the fact of how the internet actually works via leased lines and bandwidth being the largest factor in cost, also consider that they have to leave the equipment on all the time because its an MMO, which is a lot of juice. the best an MMO could hope for, possibly impossible, would be to have certain nodes go into power save mode when it doesnt have any load, which when connected to players playing as little as possible, would be definitely more doable than 30k players all following their own more or less random travel patterns in the game. basically, less time spent playing means less players on average and less nodes having to remain active and ready with load balancing cramming all the work onto fewer servers and putting those now free ones in power save. hell, they could just not even buy more at all, and keep sucking money while people keep complaining of lag. but this company is actually putting new servers in, they say. that is why you pay 15-20.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.19 23:20:00 - [23] jesus christ how shortminded and stupid can people be... yes you pay a monthly fee regardless how many hours per month you play... but the more time you need to get to a place and the more ships you noobs lose due autopilot = the more month you play = the more money CCP makes. the day a company puts customers over themselves... they will not call em companies anymore, but CHARITY SERVICE. get over it allready, or do you think CCP made this game to make YOU a happy bunny... or to actually make some money? LMAO
gojwer	Posted - 2007.10.19 23:27:00 - [24] Edited by: gojwer on 19/10/2007 23:33:15 Originally by: Kayna Eelai jesus christ how shortminded and stupid can people be... yes you pay a monthly fee regardless how many hours per month you play... but the more time you need to get to a place and the more ships you noobs lose due autopilot = the more month you play = the more money CCP makes. the day a company puts customers over themselves... they will not call em companies anymore, but CHARITY SERVICE. get over it allready, or do you think CCP made this game to make YOU a happy bunny... or to actually make some money? LMAO u lose troll, gtfo. great quote from the Dalai Lama. "When you forget or do not bother about others, then eventualy you will lose your own benefit". If a company puts so much into making money over customer satisfaction, people will eventually wake up and leave. thats the problem with todays global society, people pay longer these days for things that are truly crappy instead of doing without that DISservice they pay for. but eventually people always wake up to the selfishness and abuse of a company, and wont pay it anymore. its why some people buy electric cars now, or ride bicycles, or dont eat fastfood ever, etc.
Dao2SKP Shillelagh Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.19 23:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Dao2SKP on 19/10/2007 23:30:53 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Quick answer: Warp to zero was a solution to people complaining about pirates/time taken to move stuff. Auto-WTZ would encourage more AFK. Actually it was too decrease the huge load that the millions of instajump bms were making :\|
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.19 23:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Dao2SKP Edited by: Dao2SKP on 19/10/2007 23:30:53 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Quick answer: Warp to zero was a solution to people complaining about pirates/time taken to move stuff. Auto-WTZ would encourage more AFK. Actually it was too decrease the huge load that the millions of instajump bms were making :\| Lag was eliminated with this move? SKUNK
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2007.10.20 00:07:00 - [27] WTZ is to reduce the lag caused by huge amounts of bookmark copies and as a sort of incentive to be at the computer and flying it yourself.
Nikoo Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.10.20 00:20:00 - [28] Even WTZ non-auto pilot is a long stretch according to me. Linking it to WTZ would, from my point of view, not get a majority of pros considering all the cons. I could consider to 10km or 5km but not without some more pros. ------------------------------------------------ Yarr harr!
Aaeolian Blue Ball Machine YTMND.	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Tammarr I'd love autopilot wtz... do courier missions all day long without having to bother even a hint of my time beyond 'dock' and move item to cargo =) Nice point here, on what would be affected from a WTZ auto. I like the idea of the auto dock, it would reduce lag a little (especially in Jita). The Colbert Sig ^ = Serious win :D
Frug Zenithal Harvest BROTHER'S WORD	Posted - 2007.10.20 02:54:00 - [30] IMO autopilot should WTZ. Having gone through all the arguments in the past, I don't find myself agreeing with any of them. It still takes a long time to fly around in eve, even if you sit there and manually WTZ. AP's lack of wtz is simply annoying and I for one would cheer its introduction. I think the vast majority of the complaints against it come from pirates who think they can get some pathetic killmails off of newbies who AP through their space unwittingly, which is pretty sad. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles

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