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GTC's - some clarification.. ?

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Caine 607 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:01:00 - [1] Forgive my ignorance but the concept of 'Game Time Codes' is a new one to me. As I understand it, an individual can purchase these aforementioned 'codes' for real life, honest-to-god sweaty cash then use them to extend their play-time by certain pre-defined durations according to the value of the code. You can imagine my suprise then, when I found out that these 'GTC's' can (and apparently are) be(ing) exchanged in-game for ISK... ???? Not only that but apparently this nefarious business, which goes against the very core ideology to which CCP claims to subscribe (referring specifically to the general concept of ISK-pharming), is fully endorsed by CCP. Now I realise I'm clearly behind with the times and this topic has doubtless circled the forums on countless occassions but it seems to me that this is an issue that really has to be addressed at some point in the near future if only because it conflicts with the very spirit of the game. Why only a few minutes ago I read a thread that had been published by a victim of an ISK selling swindle easing his conscience by confessing to his apparent transgression however... Perhaps more suprising than the inconceivable honesty of the aforementioned individual is the ferocity with which he was reprimanded by his EVE peers and yet one individual after hitching a ride on the flame-wagon then proceeded to remind him that GTC's were a much better bet because they weren't in violation of the EULA (or words to that effect). I can't be the only one that is willing to acknowledge this blatent act of duplicity. No matter how I look at it, it just seems like legitimate ISK-pharming to me... the only difference is that process of converting $ or ú to ISK requires one additional step and that the recipients of said cash gain a monopoly. Brown envelopes spring to mind. I have been scraping a living together since I started this game approximately 2 years ago doing missions and hauling cargo where so ever the opportunities arose in a desperate effort to quench my irrepressable desire to procure unjustiably expensive faction mods and other minor extravagances, all the while, comforted by the presumption that the only way to make large sums of cash was to earn it... apparently not so... all I have to do is order a few time codes and sell them off for ISK... I don't like ranting and I try to avoid it where ever possible but this issue just seems so absurdly and conspicuously wrong that I had to express my dissaproval. Anyway, I shall continue to play the game regardless but until this issue is resolved, I shall never again play with the same degree of satisfaction.
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:02:00 - [2] I hate people selling GTCs for ISK. But it's a fact of life. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:02:00 - [3] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 20/10/2007 21:02:28 edit: crap, not first still... in after the fail I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:05:00 - [4] Originally by: Caine 607 No matter how I look at it, it just seems like legitimate ISK-pharming to me... the only difference is that process of converting $ or ú to ISK requires one additional step and that the recipients of said cash gain a monopoly. You can't convert it to cash since the only allowed way of buying GTCs for isk immediately adds the time to your account - so you can't sell the GTC for cash, you can only use it to extend your own account. =AFK=
Caine 607 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Estel Arador You can't convert it to cash since the only allowed way of buying GTCs for isk immediately adds the time to your account - so you can't sell the GTC for cash, you can only use it to extend your own account. Aaahhh... Thank you for the clarification Estel, as I say, I'm new to the whole GTC concept but suggestions from other forum posts were perhaps a little misleading. I apologise for jumping to conclusions.
Industrial Witch Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 20/10/2007 21:02:28 edit: crap, not first still... in after the fail You do relaise that posting fail = fail don't you? Or are you so fail that you don't know you fail? Words fail me... If that's too complicated for you then try this: Tortun Nahme = loser I'll sell you an extra word for 1 ISK -
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:20:00 - [7] you do realise that by that logic your own post is a fail as well? come back when you have some more skill I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:25:00 - [8] I fail all of you. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by: CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:27:00 - [9] You have FAILED me for the last time Tarmy I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:33:00 - [10] Your lack of fail disturbs me! Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!

Dave White	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:39:00 - [11] I don't like the fact that people get ISK for their GTC's they bought with RL money, but I do like the fact that I can buy GTC's for ISK.. Solution: CCP needs to sell GTC for ISK. Originally by: GM Tacgnol Oveur descended from the heavens (also known as the second floor) and beat us all with his nerfbat.
Ebodhisatva Gallente hunter killers	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Caine 607 Forgive my ignorance but the concept of 'Game Time Codes' is a new one to me. As I understand it, an individual can purchase these aforementioned 'codes' for real life, honest-to-god sweaty cash then use them to extend their play-time by certain pre-defined durations according to the value of the code. You can imagine my suprise then, when I found out that these 'GTC's' can (and apparently are) be(ing) exchanged in-game for ISK... ???? Not only that but apparently this nefarious business, which goes against the very core ideology to which CCP claims to subscribe (referring specifically to the general concept of ISK-pharming), is fully endorsed by CCP. Now I realise I'm clearly behind with the times and this topic has doubtless circled the forums on countless occassions but it seems to me that this is an issue that really has to be addressed at some point in the near future if only because it conflicts with the very spirit of the game. Why only a few minutes ago I read a thread that had been published by a victim of an ISK selling swindle easing his conscience by confessing to his apparent transgression however... Perhaps more suprising than the inconceivable honesty of the aforementioned individual is the ferocity with which he was reprimanded by his EVE peers and yet one individual after hitching a ride on the flame-wagon then proceeded to remind him that GTC's were a much better bet because they weren't in violation of the EULA (or words to that effect). I can't be the only one that is willing to acknowledge this blatent act of duplicity. No matter how I look at it, it just seems like legitimate ISK-pharming to me... the only difference is that process of converting $ or ú to ISK requires one additional step and that the recipients of said cash gain a monopoly. Brown envelopes spring to mind. I have been scraping a living together since I started this game approximately 2 years ago doing missions and hauling cargo where so ever the opportunities arose in a desperate effort to quench my irrepressable desire to procure unjustiably expensive faction mods and other minor extravagances, all the while, comforted by the presumption that the only way to make large sums of cash was to earn it... apparently not so... all I have to do is order a few time codes and sell them off for ISK... I don't like ranting and I try to avoid it where ever possible but this issue just seems so absurdly and conspicuously wrong that I had to express my dissaproval. Anyway, I shall continue to play the game regardless but until this issue is resolved, I shall never again play with the same degree of satisfaction. Wrong! We want Paris Hilton for our Gallente Election, so she throws in a truck load of bucks for ISK to win. Not much different compared to the President of The Umight have Changed The Amerigoes Originally by: CCP Prism X You wont have any LPs. You need LPs with said Corp and like I said I just nuked your LPs.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Caine 607 Forgive my ignorance but the concept of 'Game Time Codes' is a new one to me. As I understand it, an individual can purchase these aforementioned 'codes' for real life, honest-to-god sweaty cash then use them to extend their play-time by certain pre-defined durations according to the value of the code. You can imagine my suprise then, when I found out that these 'GTC's' can (and apparently are) be(ing) exchanged in-game for ISK... ???? Not only that but apparently this nefarious business, which goes against the very core ideology to which CCP claims to subscribe (referring specifically to the general concept of ISK-pharming), is fully endorsed by CCP. Now I realise I'm clearly behind with the times and this topic has doubtless circled the forums on countless occassions but it seems to me that this is an issue that really has to be addressed at some point in the near future if only because it conflicts with the very spirit of the game. Why only a few minutes ago I read a thread that had been published by a victim of an ISK selling swindle easing his conscience by confessing to his apparent transgression however... Perhaps more suprising than the inconceivable honesty of the aforementioned individual is the ferocity with which he was reprimanded by his EVE peers and yet one individual after hitching a ride on the flame-wagon then proceeded to remind him that GTC's were a much better bet because they weren't in violation of the EULA (or words to that effect). I can't be the only one that is willing to acknowledge this blatent act of duplicity. No matter how I look at it, it just seems like legitimate ISK-pharming to me... the only difference is that process of converting $ or ú to ISK requires one additional step and that the recipients of said cash gain a monopoly. Brown envelopes spring to mind. I have been scraping a living together since I started this game approximately 2 years ago doing missions and hauling cargo where so ever the opportunities arose in a desperate effort to quench my irrepressable desire to procure unjustiably expensive faction mods and other minor extravagances, all the while, comforted by the presumption that the only way to make large sums of cash was to earn it... apparently not so... all I have to do is order a few time codes and sell them off for ISK... I don't like ranting and I try to avoid it where ever possible but this issue just seems so absurdly and conspicuously wrong that I had to express my dissaproval. Anyway, I shall continue to play the game regardless but until this issue is resolved, I shall never again play with the same degree of satisfaction. I don't like GTC selling that much, but on the other hand, some of my best friends in the game wouldn't be able to play if it wasn't for GTC selling. It is less destructive than RMT isk selling, since at least CCP get the money and it enables more people to play. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Caine 607 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Malcanis I don't like GTC selling that much, but on the other hand, some of my best friends in the game wouldn't be able to play if it wasn't for GTC selling. It is less destructive than RMT isk selling, since at least CCP get the money and it enables more people to play. Right, sorry but I think I'm getting the grasp of this slowly... Am I correct in assuming then that the only benefactors in real economic terms are CCP ? If so, who benefits from the ISK part of the transaction ?
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Caine 607 Originally by: Malcanis I don't like GTC selling that much, but on the other hand, some of my best friends in the game wouldn't be able to play if it wasn't for GTC selling. It is less destructive than RMT isk selling, since at least CCP get the money and it enables more people to play. Right, sorry but I think I'm getting the grasp of this slowly... Am I correct in assuming then that the only benefactors in real economic terms are CCP ? If so, who benefits from the ISK part of the transaction ? Player A buys GTC -> CCP gets RL money Player A sells GTC to Player B for ISK -> Player A gets ISK, Player B gets extended subscription The only flaw is that people can still use their RL wallets to gain an edge in-game, but the system allows people that can't pay the subscription a way to play. (and maybe even get more accounts) It also does direct competition with the illegal ISK sellers. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:55:00 - [16] GTCs are CCPs way of selling ISK just like a macro farmer. Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn GTCs are CCPs way of selling ISK just like a macro farmer. Actually that is entirely incorrect, and if you ask I will explain why. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by: CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
Asimov Andies Gallente Viral Productions Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:04:00 - [18] GTC's they way they work: You can purchase GTC's with RL cash which you can then use to add game time to your account, or sell it to others for ISK. The current philosophy and argument for it that most sellers use, and I personally agree with is as follows: People who can afford to buy GTC's to sell and pay for their account typically work more hours in RL and can't play as much EVE, there fore they can never gain the same amount of ISK as Joe Blow who works part time so has hours to spend playing, but he in turn may not have the money to pay for EVE, so he pays for a GTC with his ISK. This roughly translates into ISK wealth redistribution from the people with to much time to the people with very little time. While the example given is not always true, the scenario is one I understand, and seems how in eve, and almost all other MMO's, Time equals power and money, I truly think GTC selling is a viable way to balance that issue out to those willing to use it. High and Low Sec Freight Service I need a new sig.
Caine 607 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:14:00 - [19] Edited by: Caine 607 on 20/10/2007 22:17:05 Originally by: Tamia Clant Player A buys GTC -> CCP gets RL money Player A sells GTC to Player B for ISK -> Player A gets ISK, Player B gets extended subscription The only flaw is that people can still use their RL wallets to gain an edge in-game, but the system allows people that can't pay the subscription a way to play. (and maybe even get more accounts) It also does direct competition with the illegal ISK sellers. Thank you Tamia, Your simple illustration was just the edification I was looking for. Sadly however, it does confirm what I first suspected - that CCP has to all intents and purposes endorsed a form of isk-pharming and whilst I acknowledge your point about it being an alternative way to retain membership on EVE, I can't quite bring myself to see the isk-pharmer argument as a justification. I suppose it all comes down to the fact that I don't like ambiguities in 'gameplay ethics' if you will. It looks more like a case of cutting off ones nose to spite one's face - in this case, I heard various arguments supporting CCP's time code practise on the basis that it undermines the ISK-pharmer mentality but in RL terms wouldn't it be more analogous to a government supplementing it's revenue by duplicitously selling drugs and prohibiting private sales, thereby inadvertantly blurring the fundamental issue in question - discouraging drug use all together ?
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:20:00 - [20] Edited by: Matalino on 20/10/2007 22:26:25 Originally by: Asimov Andies The current philosophy and argument for it that most sellers use, and I personally agree with is as follows: People who can afford to buy GTC's to sell and pay for their account typically work more hours in RL and can't play as much EVE, there fore they can never gain the same amount of ISK as Joe Blow who works part time so has hours to spend playing, but he in turn may not have the money to pay for EVE, so he pays for a GTC with his ISK. This roughly translates into ISK wealth redistribution from the people with to much time to the people with very little time. Except that there are plenty of ways to take that GTC and turn it into much more ISK that was paid to buy it in the first place. If people can't be bothered to put in the effort themselves, then there is plenty of profit to be made by those who will put in the effort. GTC sales are about instant gratification. They want their ISK now and don't want to have to work or wait for it. Those who buy GTC's with ISK know how to turn those accounts in to much more than they paid. Just like in the real world, those with the patience for delayed gratification profit on those who seek instant gratification. GTC sellers give up a fair greater in-game advantage than they ever come close to gaining. If you don't like GTC sellers, then position yourself to profit at their expense, then you will suddenly find that you like them a bit more. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO

Asimov Andies Gallente Viral Productions Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Caine 607 in RL terms wouldn't it be more analogous to a government supplementing it's revenue by duplicitously selling drugs and prohibiting private sales, thereby inadvertantly blurring the fundamental issue in question - discouraging drug use all together ? Just pointing out here. The US politicians are given large sums of money to supplement their wallets from pharmaceutical companies to keep them from passing laws that would hurt said companies. So while your example is not exactly duplicated in RL, there are very similar instances going on. High and Low Sec Freight Service I need a new sig.
Caine 607 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Asimov Andies Just pointing out here. The US politicians are given large sums of money to supplement their wallets from pharmaceutical companies to keep them from passing laws that would hurt said companies. So while your example is not exactly duplicated in RL, there are very similar instances going on. A very astute point Asimov !
Asimov Andies Gallente Viral Productions Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Matalino Edited by: Matalino on 20/10/2007 22:26:25 Except that there are plenty of ways to take that GTC and turn it into much more ISK that was paid to buy it in the first place. If people can't be bothered to put in the effort themselves, then there is plenty of profit to be made by those who will put in the effort. GTC sales are about instant gratification. They want their ISK now and don't want to have to work or wait for it. Those who buy GTC's with ISK know how to turn those accounts in to much more than they paid. Just like in the real world, those with the patience for delayed gratification profit on those who seek instant gratification. GTC sellers give up a fair greater in-game advantage than they ever come close to gaining. If you don't like GTC sellers, then position yourself to profit at their expense, then you will suddenly find that you like them a bit more. You example is not that valid in terms of turning it into more ISK, as that is one thing that traders do normally. Example, when hulks were still 500 million, I found one for 450 mill, and sold it for 550 mill, now I just took 450 million ISK and turned it into 550 million. That is what traders do. So while I see your point, as it being a jump start instead of working for that ISK, I don't agree with that argument. As well, like I staited, said seller might work a 50-60 hour week at work where the normal person works a 40 hour week and others work even less, so you get to play more than me meaning you can gather that ISK much quicker than I, so to balance it, I can sell a GTC using my additional income to put me back on a "level" playing field. High and Low Sec Freight Service I need a new sig.
Malovich	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Caine 607 Thank you Tamia, Your simple illustration was just the edification I was looking for. Sadly however, it does confirm what I first suspected - that CCP has to all intents and purposes endorsed a form of isk-pharming and whilst I acknowledge your point about it being an alternative way to retain membership on EVE, I can't quite bring myself to see the isk-pharmer argument as a justification. I suppose it all comes down to the fact that I don't like ambiguities in 'gameplay ethics' if you will. It looks more like a case of cutting off ones nose to spite one's face - in this case, I heard various arguments supporting CCP's time code practise on the basis that it undermines the ISK-pharmer mentality but in RL terms wouldn't it be more analogous to a government supplementing it's revenue by duplicitously selling drugs and prohibiting private sales, thereby inadvertantly blurring the fundamental issue in question - discouraging drug use all together ? You mean like most governments do with alcohol and tobacco when they simply place taxes on them? Why not get rid of them entirely as they are just as harmful in the long-term? Because human nature is what it is and people will do as they please and all you gain from attempting to stop them is putting a lot of other-wise law-abiding citizens in jail and making very bad people rich. In the history of the US, for example, Prohibition made thousands of people criminals and put millions of dollars into organized crime's pocket while failing for the most part to stop the flow of alcohol. Getting back to EvE, people will buy ISK. This is almost an inevitability just because of the way the game is and the way people think and a slew of other reasons. Now, CCP could stick their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALALA" as they try to ban anyone who wants to contemplate buying ISK which could cost them customers and result in people getting scammed by the sellers or, it could provide a secure way to exchange ISK for playtime so that people can indulge their need to get a quick infusion of ISK, someone else could get some "Free" playtime and all the actual cash spent in the transaction goes right back to CCP to work on EvE. While it's not the optimal situation wherein everyone just plays the game as it's written, it's about as lesser of two evils as you're going to get. Going back to our illegal drug analogy: it's more akin to the government denouncing people who sell drugs illegally on the street while selling untainted drugs in a controlled, doctor-monitored facility and using the proceeds to fund drug education and rehab programs. Again, not the perfect option...but better than some.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:37:00 - [25] Edited by: Matalino on 20/10/2007 22:39:51 Originally by: Caine 607 A very astute point Asimov ! Much more astute would be the taxes on cigerettes. Why don't they outlaw them? Because it makes too much money. With the tax rates on cig's in north america, the goverment makes almost as much, and possibly more than, the tobaco companies do. Unfortunately the example does not carry over to CCP's policy against ISK sellers. Remember, when someone trades a GTC they give up a HUGE in-game advantage, one that is far larger than the one they are receiving. Money will always equal in-game power as long as CCP allows people to have multiple accounts and team work is more effective than solo play. I doubt that either of those is likely to change. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn GTCs are CCPs way of selling ISK just like a macro farmer. Actually that is entirely incorrect, and if you ask I will explain why. Cause CCP doesn't have to farm the ISK? They just sit back and use a broker to sell their ISK for them. Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn GTCs are CCPs way of selling ISK just like a macro farmer. Actually that is entirely incorrect, and if you ask I will explain why. Cause CCP doesn't have to farm the ISK? They just sit back and use a broker to sell their ISK for them. No, but I have already posted the reason twice now. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Cinimrat	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn GTCs are CCPs way of selling ISK just like a macro farmer. Actually that is entirely incorrect, and if you ask I will explain why. Cause CCP doesn't have to farm the ISK? They just sit back and use a broker to sell their ISK for them. Wow, that response was worse than I expected.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn GTCs are CCPs way of selling ISK just like a macro farmer. Actually that is entirely incorrect, and if you ask I will explain why. Cause CCP doesn't have to farm the ISK? They just sit back and use a broker to sell their ISK for them. You're...not very smart, are you? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by: CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
Asimov Andies Gallente Viral Productions Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn GTCs are CCPs way of selling ISK just like a macro farmer. Actually that is entirely incorrect, and if you ask I will explain why. Cause CCP doesn't have to farm the ISK? They just sit back and use a broker to sell their ISK for them. You're...not very smart, are you? You're not very old, are you? You're not very... stormborn, are you? I just wanted to feel special too High and Low Sec Freight Service I need a new sig.



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