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Vexing Profit	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:04:00 - [1] So I was reading intergal and saw this exchange: Quote: Quote: Originally by: Jonathan Pryde Quote: Originally by: Revan Neferis Care to explain who this Napoleon is? If if it is a merc, I'll be glad to hire him. Read world History little one, especially French history cira.. uh.. 1700's (I think LATE 1700's...) Napoleon was a general in France who came to power hellbent on world domination. He failed. Twice. (Damn, i really am old.. I learned this crap 20 years ago..) My map of Providence and Amarr must be not accurate as I can't find any reference to a solar system , constellation or region called France. Neither to this Napolean that dominated a world. (( please read IGS posting rules)) Here's my question: How much of "ancient" Earth's history/lore is known to the peoples of EVE. I guess I've always assumed that the monumental events/personages of the past (even the far, far pass) would still be the collective memory of humanity, and therefore IC. Thoughts.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:08:00 - [2] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/10/2007 19:08:19 It's generally assumed that because of the time lapsed between now and the time of Eve (over 20,000 years), and also because of the cataclysmic nature of Eve-gate collapse, that very little information on Earth would be available to our characters. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:15:00 - [3] Human beings tend to forget even the most important things. It is very unlikely, that Napoleon would be generally recognized on Earth in 20,000 years, and nearly impossible, that anyone in a blocked off and totally annihilated universe would have ever heard something of that guy. Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Vexing Profit	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:36:00 - [4] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/10/2007 19:08:19 It's generally assumed that because of the time lapsed between now and the time of Eve (over 20,000 years), and also because of the cataclysmic nature of Eve-gate collapse, that very little information on Earth would be available to our characters. Right. But with the amount of "ageless" recording tech that would have existed prior to the Eve-gate collapse there have to those who still have some access to, at least fragments of, that sort of knowledge. I visualize eccentric old Jovians in the equivalent of a Dark age monastery translating "piles" of text.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:38:00 - [5] earth is a myth, there is no information you can dislike it all you want, its a part of the eve universe I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Vexing Profit Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/10/2007 19:08:19 It's generally assumed that because of the time lapsed between now and the time of Eve (over 20,000 years), and also because of the cataclysmic nature of Eve-gate collapse, that very little information on Earth would be available to our characters. Right. But with the amount of "ageless" recording tech that would have existed prior to the Eve-gate collapse there have to those who still have some access to, at least fragments of, that sort of knowledge. I visualize eccentric old Jovians in the equivalent of a Dark age monastery translating "piles" of text. In the backstory, all the surviving colonies were set back to the stoneage (or close to it). So any "ageless" storage devices would have been unreadable. That said, you could be the one with a "DVD" of the Napolean history . You just can't read it, because DVD players have gone bye bye.
Shin Schei Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.21 20:07:00 - [7] From what I've read, it's generally assumed we came from somewhere other than the known systems through the original EVE gate, but no one knows where that somewhere was or anything about it. Originally by: Celeste Coeval I'd ask for your stuff, but you'd probably get ganked on the way to dropping it off.
Vexing Profit	Posted - 2007.10.21 20:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Tortun Nahme earth is a myth, there is no information you can dislike it all you want, its a part of the eve universe Imagine, if you will, a world where not everything said on the E-O forums required a snotty answer. Imagine, for a moment, that I was simply speculating on an aspect of the backdrop of EVE. To be clear: I am *not* looking to argue if parts of the 20th-21st century paradigm that we, as players, live in should be considered IC. I don't care. I am just interested in what the RP community thought about what the remnants of that time/place would be (if any).
Vexing Profit	Posted - 2007.10.21 20:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Originally by: Vexing Profit Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/10/2007 19:08:19 It's generally assumed that because of the time lapsed between now and the time of Eve (over 20,000 years), and also because of the cataclysmic nature of Eve-gate collapse, that very little information on Earth would be available to our characters. Right. But with the amount of "ageless" recording tech that would have existed prior to the Eve-gate collapse there have to those who still have some access to, at least fragments of, that sort of knowledge. I visualize eccentric old Jovians in the equivalent of a Dark age monastery translating "piles" of text. In the backstory, all the surviving colonies were set back to the stoneage (or close to it). So any "ageless" storage devices would have been unreadable. That said, you could be the one with a "DVD" of the Napolean history . You just can't read it, because DVD players have gone bye bye. Right totally forgot about the "reduced to the stone age" thing. Been awhile since I watch the Intro to the game :). [Though I still like my Jovian Monastery idea ;)]
Tecro Nashota Inako Industries	Posted - 2007.10.21 20:38:00 - [10] What we know is nothing. We only assume, because it looks that way, that we are all from the same race and came here through that thing we call the EVE gate.
Rogue Roy Minmatar Rogue Aces	Posted - 2007.10.21 20:51:00 - [11] Edited by: Rogue Roy on 21/10/2007 20:53:35 Edited by: Rogue Roy on 21/10/2007 20:51:10 There are references to Earth knowledge throughout the game, like the naming of certain ships, for example (Wolf description is probably the best example and the same principle would explain quite a few others). Therefore I assume there are bits and pieces, quite random in nature and always shrouded in legend and mystery. These bits and pieces are also the cultural foundation of all the empires and religions, even if they have changed quite a bit in the process. I also think it quite likely that DVD playback devised has been reverse-engineered since then and supercomputer/AI's can probably make sense of the signals as well by matching it with linguistic data (the same way archaic languages are being reconstructed from modern languages). Of course, whether this kind of information is available to anyone but specialised scientists is another matter. It's about the mid-level players fighting to maintain their standings, treading on those below and plotting against those above. -CCP Ginger
Nuyan Zahedi Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.21 21:14:00 - [12] Edited by: Nuyan Zahedi on 21/10/2007 21:15:19 Edited by: Nuyan Zahedi on 21/10/2007 21:15:03 Fairy tales for misguided gallente. Everyone knows everything started after God created the Amarr.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.21 22:31:00 - [13] most data storage devices arent designed to last thousands of years as that particular feature wouldnt be of much use to most people. a dvd for example definately wouldnt last that long. unless the people in the eve cluster (before the gate closed) decided that they needed to preserve all their information just in case a catastrophe happens and that they need to be able to access it a few thousand years later i wouldnt expect to find any such archive. the jove on the other hand may still have data from before the gate collapsed stored somewhere as its not entirely clear if they suffered the same setbacks as the rest of the people in the eve-cluster did. they may have already been able to survive on their own at the time.
Maestro Ulv Phaze-9	Posted - 2007.10.21 22:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Vexing Profit totally forgot about the "reduced to the stone age" thing. Anything is possible hence it being RP. Holes are everywhere, not least the one that has us back in the stone age for many hundreds of years, losing everything that was in our past and yet we grow and mature into civil "English" speaking clones. We remember to do business in "old Earths" tradition. We name our ships on Old Earth mythology and fit them with decidely 20th century named items. Someone, somewhere kept something otherwise none of it would make sense. So yeah, its viable to have some of Earths history still on record. I'm not bored, I'm merely in the Queue.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Maestro Ulv Originally by: Vexing Profit totally forgot about the "reduced to the stone age" thing. Anything is possible hence it being RP. Holes are everywhere, not least the one that has us back in the stone age for many hundreds of years, losing everything that was in our past and yet we grow and mature into civil "English" speaking clones. We remember to do business in "old Earths" tradition. We name our ships on Old Earth mythology and fit them with decidely 20th century named items. Someone, somewhere kept something otherwise none of it would make sense. So yeah, its viable to have some of Earths history still on record. Speaking english? What is this "English" you're speaking of? I'm clearly speaking Amarrian and you're clearly speaking the neo-Gallentean trade language. At least that's what my translator implant tells me. [/snotty RP elitism ] Overall we're using the english language and english items to represent something entirely different. Kind of like the "Warhammer 40k" universe that used latin when things were written in "Tech" (a univeral technical language derived from English) and english itself when representing all sorts of local dialects that were, by the time of the 41st century, derived from "Tech". When we're talking about the Raven, Hound, Osprey, Caracal, Crusader and things like that we're most likely doing an interpretation of concept that exist in the "Modern day" EVE universe. The crusader is probably a word that means something similar to what "crusader" means but has no references to crosses, pilgrimages to Jerusalem or longswords, but probably more association with the reclaiming, amarrian religious symbols and fanatical zealots with frickin lasers on their heads. This is taken even further when it comes to some subjects. When we're talking about the Emperor we're probably using some sort of word that is more similar in concept to "Pope" or "Caliph" (given the very religious origin of the position), but which we're not using because it has too much association with a particular faith. You can definitely see the bad press if Amarr was called "The Amarr Caliphate" for example ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Maestro Ulv Phaze-9	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel This is taken even further when it comes to some subjects. When we're talking about the Emperor we're probably using some sort of word that is more similar in concept to "Pope" or "Caliph" (given the very religious origin of the position), but which we're not using because it has too much association with a particular faith. You can definitely see the bad press if Amarr was called "The Amarr Caliphate" for example Pretty much proves that anything goes then RP is what we make it as individuals as well as a whole, its just down to our collective selfs to fit it all in. Translators are one aspect but thats probably from the lack of "none religious" eductation you guys get. "If it ain't in the good book, it don't exist boy!" I'm not bored, I'm merely in the Queue.
Frug Zenithal Harvest BROTHER'S WORD	Posted - 2007.10.22 00:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne most data storage devices arent designed to last thousands of years as that particular feature wouldnt be of much use to most people. a dvd for example definately wouldnt last that long. unless the people in the eve cluster (before the gate closed) decided that they needed to preserve all their information just in case a catastrophe happens and that they need to be able to access it a few thousand years later i wouldnt expect to find any such archive. Thus we can conclude that we only have a few years left to listen to the beatles, because the lifespan of records their songs were recorded on is very low. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.22 00:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Frug Thus we can conclude that we only have a few years left to listen to the beatles, because the lifespan of records their songs were recorded on is very low. you only have a few years left to listen to them on their original recordings which will already have lost a lot of the original information stored on them. can always make new copies if you like. well unless something unforseen happens throwing your society into chaos....then this may not be a top priority. in any case you will need to constantly care for your data storage devices and generate new backups over time if you want to preserve the original data. you can take measures to prolong this but i'm pretty sure that no dvd currently in use will be readable in 1000 years time much less 20000 years. you will propably have better luck with just going for the old fashioned way and chiseling your message into some stones.
angggggry	Posted - 2007.10.22 00:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Human beings tend to forget even the most important things. It is very unlikely, that Napoleon would be generally recognized on Earth in 20,000 years, and nearly impossible, that anyone in a blocked off and totally annihilated universe would have ever heard something of that guy. Juwi Kotch greatneeeeeeeess is nooooot forgotteeeen
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.10.22 01:04:00 - [20] We claim to have rudimentary knowledge of a place called Earth, our views and concept of that place is in no way to be taken as fact, it's just part of our belief system. Bits and pieces of Earth trivia is bound to crop up during our quest for clarity but those being fragmented they're very likely to be misinterpreted and/or re-invented to whatever suits our ends. What we know isn't important, what we claim to know and can get away with is, in an RP context, to the fraghags this is all just fluff. Also Known As
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.10.22 01:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne in any case you will need to constantly care for your data storage devices and generate new backups over time if you want to preserve the original data. you can take measures to prolong this but i'm pretty sure that no dvd currently in use will be readable in 1000 years time much less 20000 years. you will propably have better luck with just going for the old fashioned way and chiseling your message into some stones. Pretty much. Looking back even 1000 years and the largest intact work we have is the bible and the Quran, and that's because we've had thousands of people copying it again and again (with a focus on preserving the work accurate and intact) according to an improvised LOCKSS (Lots of Copies Keeps Stuff Safe) method. And not even LOCKSS works most of the time, some of what we know from other sources as the most prolific writers in the ancient roman empire exist today only in that they're mentioned by other sources (none of their works, which were copied by the thousands and the property of every educated man, have survived). Why? Because people didn't bother copying their works during the "dark ages" following the collapse of the roman empire. If a work falls out of favor for even 500 years it's pretty much dead. The bible and the quran has survived because the information has been the focal points of religions with millions of followers and a strong desire to keep the original word intact. If a work is going to be preserved for 20000 years it has to be: 1. Made out of a worthless material that's hard and durable, can hold some level of detail, and doesn't react, oxidize or combine. Generally those types of materials are worth quite a bit, and that means someone will steal it and use it for something else which will eventually destroy the object. 2. Buried in an airless environment with low radiation levels and little or no tectonic activity. 3. Completely forgotten. Because otherwise some git treasurehunter looking for a trophy will get it as "old" eventually means "unique and valuable" no matter how worthless the material is. And once it's out of the ground it will be destroyed within a relatively short time. Preserving materials over even just 10000 years requires not only effort (preferably continual effort) and not only luck, but both. Nothing we make today will be here in 10000 years, I can pretty much guarantee that. It will be legend, myth and maybe a small pile of rubble somewhere. And that's if we're lucky. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.

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