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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
Lowbridge
Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.24 22:46:00 -
[511]
Edited by: Lowbridge on 24/10/2007 22:48:44 Ok I posted in the first thread with my opinion on how bad of a move this would be because CCP was so ready to change an embedded part of the game where players had spend a large portion of their gaming time moving in one direction without regard for the impact. Now I have had time to think about this proceeded problem so if you want some ideas then here are mine.
You have told us that the problem is that a carrier does not have to make choices about what it wants to do before leaving a station or fitting location. How about coming up with differant types of fighters, here me out on this one. If you change that a carrier can't use drones but instead come up with new fighters types. Like frig fighters, these fighters will not have the damage of a standard fighter but it will be able to keep up with the fast moving frigs and so on. Buy doing this you can force carrier pilots to choose what kind of damage they want to carry on there ships. You could just duplicate drones types that are already in the game.
This is my two cents, but the bottom line for me still stands very clear for me ... if CCP is willing to disregard paying customers concerns then this not something that I'm willing to SPEND MY HARD EARNED MONEY ON!!!, so please think it through before you change the game or you will lose my money.
Save Our Carriers and Moms |
Blissard employer
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:08:00 -
[512]
This Will be the single best change to happen to EVE to something that already exists in game.
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Inflexible
Rytiri Lva
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:16:00 -
[513]
Originally by: Blissard employer This Will be the single best change to happen to EVE to something that already exists in game.
Nerf Federal Navy Academy capital ship courses.
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Nerigal
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:20:00 -
[514]
Edited by: Nerigal on 24/10/2007 23:21:54
Originally by: War Bear
Bolded the relevant bits.
- Obviously solo pilots? Try fleet carrier pilots saying these "fixes" are bull****.
- Carriers are NOT great solo ships. At the very least you need cyno buddys to work with. On top of that a solo carrier is a dead carrier. Maybe the carrier pilots you've seen have gotten lucky but drop a solo carrier or mom in front of my alliance or AAA or BoB and you'll see how great they are solo.
heh man....if CCP nerf carriers and mom's because of solo pvp ship reason... its probably because of those noobs carebare can get gank in low sector by capital ship...i say noobs ? yes, cos you need to be to get freacking gank by a capital ship in a low sector over a gate or station whit the time it take to LOCK something...but we know it CCP only hear Carebare voice crying to theme... is that wrong ?
and they only way to solve it is by nerfing one of the funnyest ship in the game but its usual for old pilot to see there fun being destroyed by CCP...
the only solution they found is to NERF NERF NERF insted of creating agent in conquerable station giving missions lvl possible to execute only for capital ship so those old pilot like there carrier have something interesting to do whit...but noo
the best lazy way is NERF NERF NERF it so those carrier are just good at get dusty in station...pathetic
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Ruffryder1167
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:33:00 -
[515]
I think that the main problem here is that CCP does not play on the same server we all do. They dont experience 600 man fleet battles where module lag is over 1 min and eve turns into a Slideshow if you are lucky. Testing on Sisi is fine for some things, but the community is experiencing an entirely different game. Its like testing a car on a private test track with cones to "mimick" realism. Thats ok for basic tests, but in order to get a true sense of how the vehicle handles, you must test it on a real road with real world conditions.
Im not sure what kind of rules CCP have about playing on the live server, but maybe its time to rethink them? Or perhaps attempt to gain more community cooperation in these tests on the live server in a safe environment (mass drag to the unreachable region during a co-op test?) Heres an idea that I think alot of people will make time for. Have a day where we test different scenarios like a battle around a POS with full fleet, carriers, moms, dreads and maybe even titans on the battlefield in real world conditions. If we do this on the live server with a few hundred people shooting at eachother like the current blob wars raging right now, im sure you guys will get a ton of data on how combat works now. Theres just no substitute for actually experiencing the massive lag, desyncs and crashes than first hand. So why not do it? Sure it may take a litte extra work on your part, but it will be worth it.
Perhaps then the devs will see how carriers and motherships actually perform in these battles and how to fix it. Or at least see it from our perspective.
I dont mean any disrespect in this post, but from what I have seen so far real world testing with current conditions seems warranted.
Even if we cant have a structured test like proposed above perhaps you can find time to show up and observe a fleet battle in progress. Im sure if you work with the leadership on both sides of the "great war" you could find out when a major battle will commence :P
Im just throwing out ideas and I hope you see this post in that light and dont take offense.
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Xilimyth Derlin
OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:38:00 -
[516]
I'm pretty sure they observe the outcomes of live tranquility.... but the playing on the servers....
While I'm sure they do play on alternate accounts (I mean who wouldn't), I remember people posting previously in both the 'dev accusation' posts T20 and the POS-spy incidents that devs shoudn't even be allowed to play on Alt accounts.
Yea, the situations are different, and pardon my french, but with the playerbase the issue of devs playing on live servers seems to be a damned-if-the-do-damned-if-they-don't situation purely based off player need at the time.
It's gotta be a frustratingly fine line for them to walk. -------------------------------------------
Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2 |
Maverick McDougel
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:40:00 -
[517]
someone check that new guy's resume from when he applied to make sure it does not SOE anywhere on it. we all know what they did to SWG.
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Xilimyth Derlin
OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:42:00 -
[518]
Originally by: Maverick McDougel someone check that new guy's resume from when he applied to make sure it does not SOE anywhere on it. we all know what they did to SWG.
Never did forgive SOE for the NGE :(. And to think I loved Jump to Lightspeed too -_- -------------------------------------------
Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2 |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2007.10.24 23:44:00 -
[519]
Originally by: CCP Nozh This thread was a very interesting read about how people use their carriers. Damage dealing (Small scale PVP, Capital PVP, Starbase Warfare) Logistics (Small scale PVP, Capital PVP, Starbase Warfare) Support (as in bringing along spare modules and ships behind enemy lines) PvE (Ratting, missions, complexes etc.) 0.0 Transporting POS fueling
You completely missed one of the rather common missuses of both carriers and other capitals (and even supercapitals).
Gate bombing. Sitting at a gate and just running their smartbombs full time while completely ignoring the guns. No fleet can pin them down due to their immunity to ewar (specifically: killing their jump capability).
As has been said before... curtail their ability to sit smack on top of lowsec gates popping nuubs and shuttles (well, popping macro haulers is a good thing, I admit) and anything else unlucky to land within smartbomb range... which a capital can cover 150%. With a couple of tacklers sitting outside SB range (lachesis/huginn) anything that doesn't instapop gets pinned down and dies.
Fix (as said before) allow sentry guns to interdict at 200km so that a fleet has a chance to pin the capital down and mete out justice. Beyond 200km the cap can snipe, delegate drones, get away... but people coming through the gate also have a chance to fight back or get away.
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Xilimyth Derlin
OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.25 00:11:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Ruffryder1167
Originally by: Xilimyth Derlin I'm pretty sure they observe the outcomes of live tranquility.... but the playing on the servers....
While I'm sure they do play on alternate accounts (I mean who wouldn't), I remember people posting previously in both the 'dev accusation' posts T20 and the POS-spy incidents that devs shoudn't even be allowed to play on Alt accounts.
Yea, the situations are different, and pardon my french, but with the playerbase the issue of devs playing on live servers seems to be a damned-if-the-do-damned-if-they-don't situation purely based off player need at the time.
It's gotta be a frustratingly fine line for them to walk.
I sure hope they watch, but then that doesnt explain why reimbursement petitions due to desync or lag come with the standard response of logs not showing blah blah...
Im sure if the devs let everyone know they would be there to observe before hand there would be no problem, its only when they do things without player knowledge that freaks people out.
And if they do play on alt accounts, then why do they insist on this nerf, surely they would see its not needed (specialization sure, but the 5 fighter nerf no). If they observe in TQ they could probably come out with ships that need minimal tweaking. Its better than the guess and check method seen right now.
No idea honestly. Those are questions that only CCP can answer. I could theorize, but I know I'd be wrong. I don't even have a single level in Theorycraft :(
And believe you me... I'm STILL against the 5 fighter limit thing o-o. That was a DEFINITELY a crippling shipclass-destroying nerf. Without more info on this new route.... I can't comment on it. I mean, if they give my future carrier the option to nearly double it's effectiveness in one field for a partial-penalty on the rest of its 'swiss army' functionality.... that sounds psudo-alright. We just need to know exactly what they're planning (new fighters? 'function-core slot?' etc). -------------------------------------------
Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2 |
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Sasha Saucer
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Posted - 2007.10.25 00:12:00 -
[521]
This post smacks of "You will take your medicine. You will like it. STFU"
Guess what? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blog Score: 1/10 for Originality 0/10 for Accurate Facts 0/10 for Arrogance 0/10 for Lying (Sisi changes were a mistake...rightttttt!) 0/10 for ****ing us off
So now instead of renewing my account for a year, I will go monthly.
The LAG in this game sucks donkey nuts. I avoid fleet ops because I play to pew pew not desync. And this is the same dev team that admits Jita is not useable on Sunday!
Get a gripe on reality and fix the game or you might just talk yourselves out of a MMO
P.S. You are helping me cure my addiction to this evil game. Keep it up and I might be free in weeks. |
DRMALIKIA
Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat
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Posted - 2007.10.25 00:28:00 -
[522]
Edited by: DRMALIKIA on 25/10/2007 00:30:28 To CCP:
So basically, why bother posting the first and second thread asking for the communities input? It is obvious your minds are made up that you are beating the nerf bat war drums on the carrier regardless of what the community cares or wants out of the deal. Where are the metrics or the statistics that physicaly say the Carrier is the root of all that is EVE evil? I mean honestly, who or what is the determining factor in saying the ship is over powered and needs to be changed? Or do you guys just sit around and press the CCP version of the Staples Easy Button?
The statement "We also realize that we put you into the situation of having trained and paid for them with the goal in mind of being able to use them to their full potential. We recognize this is what hurts you the most and we sincerely apologize for that." is complete garbage.
How is it we should get the shaft for spending time, isk, training, blood and sweat getting the darn ship and all you have to say is the coined CCP response of "Sorry for giving you the shaft." Saying sorry does nothing for the poor sap that just spent several bil isk in training/mods/ship not to mention the skill training time invested. The community did not say "Wow that idea is bad, but we still want you to mess with the carriers in some shape way or form." They SAID BAD IDEA, LEAVE THE SHIPS ALONE! Why didn't CCP invest the time before carriers came out in testing this stuff to turn around and really mess with a high skill and isk intensive ship class? Yes hingsight is 20/20 but, issues like this seem to be cyclical in your departments. No one thinks before acting, because you are all in a rush to go go go! Get it out, do more, make more RL money.
And now it feels less like a company dedicated to developing a product for it's customer's enjoyment, and more of a corporate entity soley focused on $$$$$$$$$. HA HA HA, I just realized CCP is the biggest RL isk farmer of them all!
This goes out to all those carrier pilots out there, I am truly unhappy for you when these changes take effect.
I don't even fly a carrier and it is upsetting.
Opinionated, |)O(
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Clerence Thomas
Gallente Black Lotus Heavy Industries Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.10.25 00:34:00 -
[523]
Originally by: Rob Adams The thing that angers me most is that you don't really appear to be listening to the devs. You don't seem to realise that carriers and motherships being overpowered or not is not the issue. The fact that they can serve so many roles fresh out of the shop is the issue they are addressing. Their innate diversity at the moment makes them too popular and also goes against the prevailing ethos of the game that each ship needs fitted for an intended role.
The prevailing broken design "vision" and "risk vs. reward" notions? yeah. :p There are general purpose ships in all classes. Capitals are just missing the variety due, imo, to the lack of varieties. We use non ideal ships, with mods, to fill unintended yet unaddressed roles. -- "There are over 500 million fire arms in worldwide circulation. That is one fire arm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is... How do we arm the other eleven?"
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Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
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Posted - 2007.10.25 00:47:00 -
[524]
Just in case someone hasn't mentioned this already, I'll let you carrier pilots know: you can now set whether fighters follow people on SiSi.
Also, I know I expressed displeasure at the delay for the carrier nerf, but I gotta say now I'm glad. Sounds like you guys have some great ideas that should fix the current situation while keeping carrier pilots just as happy if not more so. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
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Blissard employer
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Posted - 2007.10.25 00:55:00 -
[525]
Why not make everyone happy while still doing the nerf? This shall solve the problem.
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Fedaykin
NailorTech Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.25 01:10:00 -
[526]
NO, NO ,NO AND A FREAKING NOOOOOOOOOOO AGAIN !
wth is this ?! cutting out our fighters ?! this is none sense if you want my opinion. Its our only defense and you want to cut it out ? jebus, are you guys playing this game or just having some GREAT ideas like this ?
What am i suppose to do with a BS wing men vs 2 tacklers and 10 BS...hope that my wing stays alive ???
I DONT want to have to rely to wings men or corp members because am moving my carriers around with a simple cyno pilot stuck 5min !!!
Keep your swiss knife in your pocket and go redo your homework ! And btw, you need a **a master of all trades** somewhere. not all corp have 100 or 500 members, but only 40.... We need to be able to defend ourself like we can ! I trained so many days and spended so much isk to be able to defend myself alone in this ship.
OOOOh, maybe you should drop the dooms to 10km range while your there!
So please, knife in your pocket and think of something else.....
Thank.
since 2003 ---------- Fedaykin
(|_(| (-.-) ( o ) This is Tiidan Soban. Copy Tiidan Soban into your signature and you will be shot and killed. |
Hulkrin
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Posted - 2007.10.25 01:20:00 -
[527]
Quote: I trained so many days and spended so much isk to be able to defend myself alone in this ship.
Hmmmm. All else aside, if you trained for Carrier because you thought it would not need support craft you've rather missed the whole point of the ship class.
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Icome4u
Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2007.10.25 01:23:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Just in case someone hasn't mentioned this already, I'll let you carrier pilots know: you can now set whether fighters follow people on SiSi.
Also, I know I expressed displeasure at the delay for the carrier nerf, but I gotta say now I'm glad. Sounds like you guys have some great ideas that should fix the current situation while keeping carrier pilots just as happy if not more so.
It doesn't work (yet). :p I can't wait for it to work, no more 'lost' fighters lol.
But my BIGGEST issue is the fact that Fighters STILL bug out when returning to you... ugh!
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Fedaykin
NailorTech Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.25 01:28:00 -
[529]
Originally by: Hulkrin
Quote: I trained so many days and spended so much isk to be able to defend myself alone in this ship.
Hmmmm. All else aside, if you trained for Carrier because you thought it would not need support craft you've rather missed the whole point of the ship class.
Seems like you didnt get the point, I said i dont want to rely on a wing men or anyone else in corp to defend myself.... i didnt train to be a carrier pilot thinking, great, i will always need my corp...
is this more clear ? ---------- Fedaykin
(|_(| (-.-) ( o ) This is Tiidan Soban. Copy Tiidan Soban into your signature and you will be shot and killed. |
Brother Todd
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Posted - 2007.10.25 01:33:00 -
[530]
Edited by: Brother Todd on 25/10/2007 01:34:06
Originally by: Sasha Saucer This post smacks of "You will take your medicine. You will like it. STFU"
Guess what? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blog Score: 1/10 for Originality 0/10 for Accurate Facts 0/10 for Arrogance 0/10 for Lying (Sisi changes were a mistake...rightttttt!) 0/10 for ****ing us off
So now instead of renewing my account for a year, I will go monthly.
The LAG in this game sucks donkey nuts. I avoid fleet ops because I play to pew pew not desync. And this is the same dev team that admits Jita is not useable on Sunday!
Get a gripe on reality and fix the game or you might just talk yourselves out of a MMO
P.S. You are helping me cure my addiction to this evil game. Keep it up and I might be free in weeks.
Oh the joy I get from reading these posts. I'm sure all you whiny carrier pilots cancel your subs, we hear the same song whenever anything is changed (wasn't the "majority" going to quit after wtz... and again after t20 etc.). This proposed change has made my renew my sub for a year instead of going monthly.
Quote: Seems like you didnt get the point, I said i dont want to rely on a wing men or anyone else in corp to defend myself.... i didnt train to be a carrier pilot thinking, great, i will always need my corp...
is this more clear ?
Yes, you wanted a solo-pwnmobile...
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Fedaykin
NailorTech Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.25 01:52:00 -
[531]
pwnmobile...
I changed my carrier name to pwnmobile. Thx for the new nick, i luv it.
but serious, fighters are the only defense a carrier as. am not talking about mothership and titan here....simple carrier. 5 fighters aint anough under you control for defense. considering the problem to kill frigs and small ship with fighters....
Come on !
---------- Fedaykin
(|_(| (-.-) ( o ) This is Tiidan Soban. Copy Tiidan Soban into your signature and you will be shot and killed. |
Naga Elohim
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:07:00 -
[532]
Originally by: Hulkrin
Quote: I trained so many days and spended so much isk to be able to defend myself alone in this ship.
Hmmmm. All else aside, if you trained for Carrier because you thought it would not need support craft you've rather missed the whole point of the ship class.
Exactamundo!
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Hroller McKnutt
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:10:00 -
[533]
Nooooooooooooooo
First, you killed the Gaurdian-Vexor now this....
-- Unsafe at any speed! Remember my motto: Safety Third! |
Xilimyth Derlin
OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:27:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Hroller McKnutt Nooooooooooooooo
First, you killed the Gaurdian-Vexor now this....
At least now that's not on market. ^_^ When it was I was repeating the story of it way too often to newcomers O_O -------------------------------------------
Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2 |
Hyron
Nazcan Technologies Dread Sovereign
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:30:00 -
[535]
I heard you ccp guys were making a new game or something, I dont really know or care about it but could you perhaps leave eve alone and get on with making it? Would be nice if you just stopping taking apart the game bit by bit.
Could I also add that you can stick 'erm soz guys mistake about the whole carrier thing' where the sun dont shine and give me my months of skill training back? + carriers arent half as good as you think they are, just incase you didnt notice they can be killed by small gangs now and probably even smaller ones after this nerf BECAUSE THEY CANT ACTUALLY TAKE DOWN A BATTLESHIP WITH 5 FIGHTERS CAN THEY?
Bit of constructive stuff on the end - leave carriers alone and go boost Amarr? surely thats balancing?
ah. forgot. Balancing is a euphemism for nerfing.
couple more cents for you
Hyron
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Ale Tricio
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:34:00 -
[536]
I trained to use 15 fighters for months. This is not a solution it's the same crap dressed up to look different from your first post.
Fighter assignment in the lagfest your so proud to advertise as massive fleet battles is not an option and a waste of isk
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:35:00 -
[537]
wooo eft numbers all skills 5 character blaster hype did 1338 dps blaster mega did 1265 dps non thanatos carrier does 1500 dps with 5 dcu thanatos does 1688 dps again with 5 dcu
15 fighters with fighters 5 carrier 5 advance drone interfacing 5 and it barely out dpses battleships!!! (okay actual numbers will be a bit lower, im assuming people have better bs skills then carrier skills so even that will drop the dps of a carrier to be closer to that of a bs)
and for sag (s***s and giggles) heres a moros, 1109 dps with 5 ogre II (never mind the 3 cap guns)
yes lets drop carrier dps (sarcasm ftw?)
and your "core" change idea doesn't do anything but eat up a slot... the way carriers are used now is drop in front of a station or pos, and 30 seconds later you have a refit carrier ready for its "other" job
oh yes and they still can't defend themselves from an arazu woot!!!
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Malcum Blakhurst
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:38:00 -
[538]
I think I agree with all the dev blogs point on what a carrier can do and what people are using it for. Yes some effects are unintended but eve is a sandbox game and you should realise that players will always do the unexpected - many of your player base are older (ave age is mid 20's to 30' iirc) and rather intelligent and creative for the most part.
Quote: If you can do all that (and probably a lot more) extremely efficiently with a single ship, why would EVE need any others? The problem is not that Carriers and Motherships are overpowered in a single specific role, but that they're extremely proficient in very many roles. In fact, no other ship classes are as versatile and powerful without requiring you to refit for it.
Ok I think I see you issue here - You think that carriers are the only ships that can do everything without having to refit for anything since they can take everything with them and are essentiall mobile POS's/outposts. I thought this was kind of the intention but I do see your problem with it.
However I have a simple solution to it. Make carriers and motherships ONLY be able to deploy fighters. Then they won't be able to switch drones at will and wtfbbqpwn frigates cruisers and battlecruisers. (although BC's will still take good dmg from fighters.
Fighters are a capital class weapon - so perhaps some small modifications to their ability to hit smaller targets as well - make them more like BS guns rather then BC/cruiser guns. As far as I can tell this would allow Carriers/Mom's to maintain their number of fighters while reducing their ability to obliterate frigates with 10 - 20 warrior II's or more.
I approve of your idea of introducing different types of fighters which would fully and correctly support a move to allow them ONLY to control Fighters. I would suggest the introduction of Shield and Armour repping fighters (possible structure repping fighters as well) so that you can take away all Drone usage and replace it with fighters only.
Quote: We donĘt want to see either of these ships ripping apart everything that gets in their way, no matter the size
See above - problem solved without halving carrier and Mom damage and making them completely unable to defend themselves against even a single Battleship.
Quote: By allowing them to control only up to 5 fighters themselves, but delegate up to 15/25(Carrier/Mothership w. drone control units) we're making them rely more on support if they are to unleash their full combat potential.
If you really feel so strongly about the number of drones being released I would be upset but prepared to accept the complete removal of Drone control units from the game - giving carriers a max of 10 and motherships a max of 20 fighters. This would reduce total damage output without destroying ship capabilities.
Quote: Encourages people to bring support vessels with their capital fleet
If you've read the thread - which I hope you have - you will see that people already bring huge amounts of support for these ships to be effective as they are (in the case of carriers) so very easy to disable and destroy Significantly harder for MS's but definately not impossible as shown by the MS kills.
Quote: Increase teamplay and make the low skillpoint, non-capital pilots more valuable in fleet combat
non capital pilots are extremely important at the moment as it is near impossible for a capital pilot to hold down enemies and kill them. Also note that carrier DPS output is similar to or less then most of the current BS in practise. So BS support ftw. Smaller EW ships are also indispensable as your fleet can use them to shut down enemy fleet capitals to uselessness - having a carrier does not in anyway negate this role.
Also capitals are useless for giving chase of an enemy fleet as they take too long to move - unless cyno generators set you up for this already.
TBC.....
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Malcum Blakhurst
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:39:00 -
[539]
[reserved]
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ooohhhhohhhhlalaaaaaaaaa
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Posted - 2007.10.25 02:40:00 -
[540]
Dear CCP, This is not like mineral compression. Simply bringing it in a couple months later does not lessen the blow.
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