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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:20:00 -
[1]
Oveur 9/10/07:
Drones Revisited
"About time" is probably the first thing that comes to mind. Not only are we improving the interface, we're working on the logic behind them. This should hopefully lead to them being more consistent in control and abolish their free will. Assist and Guard are new commands coming in, we're getting lots of new named drones and we're adding a new constraint on drones, bandwidth. With this, bandwidth determines the number of drones you can control, allowing the dronebay to be considerably increased on drone ships, accommodating more waves or variety. Ubar? Ja!
Edit note: Bandwidth referenced here is not in reference to your internet connection. It's to un-nerf specialized drone ships and allow more differentation between ships. There is also specific Drone Region content in this update.
Wowsers...Some pretty amazing 'un-nerfing' going on here:
1. Ishkur loses ability to field Med drones in its mix of 5
2. Myrmidon loses ability to field 5 Heavy drones
3. Eos loses ability to field 5 Heavy drones
4. Eos, Ishkur & and others reduced dronebay size
4. Eos loses 2 turrets just to kick it while it is down
Ubar? Ja! - NO ya big eejit. 
Bandwidth brings a wider differentiation between ships? - No. It leaves the Ishtar and Dominix as te only 'viable' drone ships. Variety just got chopped along with our dronebays.
When the changes go live you (Nozh, Oveur, Fendhal and the rest of the funambulist squad) will have succeeded in contradicting yourselves, and ruining and devaluing the time spent specialising by all people who use Drones as a primary weapon. Great job communicating with the community.
Thanks. 
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint!
Please read my ideas |
Oregon sinful
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:25:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Oregon sinful on 25/10/2007 22:25:27
first.
I agree every ship I ever wanted to fly is getting nerfed in this patch.
EDIT: You forgot to mention the sensor damp nerf making arazu and lachisis prettymuch usless as well.
CURRENT WAR: RECON Kills (295)--YouWhat Kills(13) as of 10/25/07 21:41
POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR STFU |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:25:00 -
[3]
I think CCP has some difficulty with the internal communication tbh...
- Recruitment open again-
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galadran
Caldari
Alcohol Fueled Brutality
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:27:00 -
[4]
Where are you getting the info for points 1-4 from?
Please tell me its not forums, please!
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Jevnikar
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:28:00 -
[5]
You rly should read a bit before posting yea, but stop the whine Noone ever flew eos with 7 gunz and 5 ogres so it`ll be the same as it was.
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Bon Hedus
Amarr
O.E.C
Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:29:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Oregon sinful
Edited by: Oregon sinful on 25/10/2007 22:25:27
first.
I agree every ship I ever wanted to fly is getting nerfed in this patch.
EDIT: You forgot to mention the sensor damp nerf making arazu and lachisis prettymuch usless as well.
Yay... brings them in line with the Pilgrim/Curse
--------------------------------------
Heavy Lag Spike II belonging to EvE Cluster Node #0815 hits your Connection, wrecking your latency to 998ms
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benzss
The Increment
Retribution.
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: galadran
Where are you getting the info for points 1-4 from?
Please tell me its not forums, please!
The magical land of Sisi.
I only hope that some of these changes will be revised as a lot of them are kinda over-the-top...
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benzss
The Increment
Retribution.
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bon Hedus
Originally by: Oregon sinful
Edited by: Oregon sinful on 25/10/2007 22:25:27
first.
I agree every ship I ever wanted to fly is getting nerfed in this patch.
EDIT: You forgot to mention the sensor damp nerf making arazu and lachisis prettymuch usless as well.
Yay... brings them in line with the Pilgrim/Curse
Yeah I think we can all agree that the nos nerf did bad things to those two ships :<
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jevnikar
You rly should read a bit before posting yea, but stop the whine Noone ever flew eos with 7 gunz and 5 ogres so it`ll be the same as it was.
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Oregon sinful
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:33:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Oregon sinful on 25/10/2007 22:33:50
Originally by: benzss
Originally by: Bon Hedus
Originally by: Oregon sinful
Edited by: Oregon sinful on 25/10/2007 22:25:27
first.
I agree every ship I ever wanted to fly is getting nerfed in this patch.
EDIT: You forgot to mention the sensor damp nerf making arazu and lachisis prettymuch usless as well.
Yay... brings them in line with the Pilgrim/Curse
Yeah I think we can all agree that the nos nerf did bad things to those two ships :<
Have you seen the nerf tho? T2 Sensor damp is being nerfed from 48% to 17%??? over the top?
CURRENT WAR: RECON Kills (295)--YouWhat Kills(13) as of 10/25/07 21:41
POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR STFU |
lofty29
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:37:00 -
[11]
When I saw CCP's devblog about drone overhaul, they said that droneboats would get 'significant boosts in dronebay size'.
Hmm, negative boosts count too I guess?
When you said significant, I really thought you meant like the dominix would get 1000m3 etc. Thatd be pimp 
---
Latest Video : FAT- Camp |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: galadran
Where are you getting the info for points 1-4 from?
Please tell me its not forums, please!
There's a nice thread here discussing the Test Environment (Singularity) where CCP Atropos puts the boot into the Eos
The rest is hearsay, but my understanding is that the code freeze was happening this week so I'm guessing the 'balancing' changes that have been applied to Singularity will make it into the game. Correct me if I'm wrong oh Great ones...
I personally couldn't get onto Singularity since there appeared to be no way to patch from the current TQ build through all the stages to the current SiSi build. Though I am a numpty at such stuff.
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint!
Please read my ideas |
Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bon Hedus
Originally by: Oregon sinful
Edited by: Oregon sinful on 25/10/2007 22:25:27
first.
I agree every ship I ever wanted to fly is getting nerfed in this patch.
EDIT: You forgot to mention the sensor damp nerf making arazu and lachisis prettymuch usless as well.
Yay... brings them in line with the Pilgrim/Curse
Not quite because it also make the curse even worse!!11eleventy! YAY \o/ 
C.
- sig designer - eve mail
Low Sec Idea |
Braise Erighani
Gallente
Galaxia Entertainment
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:49:00 -
[14]
All the points about the drone nerf are in dev blogs, and can be currently experimented on singularity.
It is not hearsay.
It is not proposed changes.
It is the way things are in the current rev 3 client in test.
And it is clearly over the top.
I want my skill points in drones back please.
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente
Isis Technologies
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Posted - 2007.10.25 22:59:00 -
[15]
hopefully you dont need to worry about code freeze locking these particular changes in. code freeze prevents work on New things, where all these nerfs are a matter of changing a number.
when the current madness, or a thinly hidden and still unacceptable version, hits Live, it can only be blamed on devs themselves, not "some code freeze beyond their control"
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Princess Kristie
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:02:00 -
[16]
At least ur ships beter than amarr... have u seen loladin???
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Jenea
Gallente
The Copernicus Institute
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:18:00 -
[17]
Like a year ago I set my skill to drone interfacing 5 and unsubscribed. I come back to the drone changes; no big deal, they are fixing stuff up and I never really got to experience the hordes of drones. Over the last year I've been expecting to see T2/faction drone modules, faction/officer drones, drone implants, an upgraded drone battleship (we have 5 different versions of the Megathron you know), and maybe some drone damage rigs. No -- none of that. There are industrialist implants and non-working booster implants before there are any drone implants/content.
Simply, the last drone changes were a quick fix; here is max drone DPS and we will add no more content to create a gradual increase of power progression for primary drone users that is seen in other weapon systems. None of those goodies listed above are available for drones. You get in a damn Dominix, get your skills up, maybe put on some T1 modules, and that is it. That is very boring I might add. Not like I can buy a 2 billion ISK module that makes my drones more uber than the next drone user in a Dominix with the same skills with the same modules doing the exact same build as me. Lots of diversity there.
Guess what CCP did this time around? A simplistic quick fix to the issue. Where CCP went wrong is in how they assigned the bandwidth to drones. Does it make any sense that a T1 drone and a T2 drone take the same bandwidth? Many of the problems could have been solved (or at least compromised) by allowing using something like this:
T1 Scout: 5 bandwidth
T2 Scout: 10 bandwidth
Faction Scout: 15 bandwidth
T1 Medium: 15 bandwidth
T2 Medium: 20 bandwidth
Faction Medium: 25 bandwidth
T1 Heavy: 25 bandwidth
etc.
The Raven (75 bandwidth) could then run:
5 T1 Scout (25 bandwidth)
5 T2 Scout (50 bandwidth)
5 Faction Scout (75 bandwidth)
5 T1 Medium (75 bandwidth)
3 T2 Medium (60 bandwidth), 1 T2 Scout (10 bandwidth), 1 T1 Scout (5 bandwidth)
3 Faction Medium (75 bandwidth)
3 T1 Heavy (75 bandwidth)
etc.
Yes, the numbers could be tweaked around to allow most ships to use what they current can use. This was just an example that shows how there would be "diversity and un-nerfing specialized drone ships." Of course, this was just too complex. CCP wanted to do it the easiest way possible, then use the change as an excuse to further minimilize the options for the pure drone user. Don't give me any of that drones are a secondary weapon system and they have to be balanced in line with other weapon systems on the same ship crapola. Drone boats tend to have fewer guns, armor, shields, etc. and should be balanced in context with the whole ship compared to another whole ship.
To further illustrate the simplistic changes implemented, look at the drone skills, they are either rank 1 or rank 5 -- lots of imagination there. Look at the wide variety of drone modules -- lots of imagination there too.
Using varied bandwidth on the T1/T2/Faction drones would still allow ships like the Ishkur and Myrmidon to deploy a set of medium or heavy drones, although maybe not a full set or a full set of T2 drones.
Specifically on the Ishkur, you can still drone 2 medium T2 and 1 scout T2. Okay, yeah, those extra T2 scout drones were breaking the ship. I use the Iskhur for level 2 missions. Guess what? I can do them just as easily in Rifter!
Specifically on the "+X drone bay increase attribute", it is rather weak now. Under the old system, drone bay equaled deployability; now the drone bay is just for storage. Given how some ships are getting a bit of a magical boost to their dronebay, this attribute should now be a bandwidth increase on those ships while their drone bays also get magically bigger. And honestly, if you want to spend three weeks getting AF4 and AF5 to run your 3 mediums on an Ishkur, so what?
I guess that is all I had on my mind. I sure would like to get some feedback on this issue. Sorry for any typos. |
SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:22:00 -
[18]
Big bay and BW / level bonus?
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Meleil
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:32:00 -
[19]
Have to ****heads ever considered that CCP didn't intend for some ships to be able to deploy the drones that they can now? Ya they allowed it, but to disallow it in some cases prior to this would of completely nerfed the ships to ****. Think before you whine, mmk?
~Mel
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Acinonyx Jubatus
Minmatar
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:35:00 -
[20]
Ishkur gained 10m3 actually *fkees*
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Marfew Jae
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Meleil
Have to ****heads ever considered that CCP didn't intend for some ships to be able to deploy the drones that they can now? Ya they allowed it, but to disallow it in some cases prior to this would of completely nerfed the ships to ****. Think before you whine, mmk?
~Mel
What?
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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Meleil
Have to ****heads ever considered that CCP didn't intend for some ships to be able to deploy the drones that they can now? Ya they allowed it, but to disallow it in some cases prior to this would of completely nerfed the ships to ****. Think before you whine, mmk?
~Mel
What precisely would the difference have been?
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Riebart Norith
Gallente
Interstellar Business Federation
Tartarus Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:53:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Riebart Norith on 25/10/2007 23:56:00
Originally by: SoftRevolution
Originally by: Meleil
Have to ****heads ever considered that CCP didn't intend for some ships to be able to deploy the drones that they can now? Ya they allowed it, but to disallow it in some cases prior to this would of completely nerfed the ships to ****. Think before you whine, mmk?
~Mel
What precisely would the difference have been?
I think it means that, say, giving the Myrmidon a 75m3 drone bay was simply not an option (Duh!). 3 heavies, and no replacements. The Vexor has that! So, yeah, giving out cruddy sized drone bays, simply to keep the DPS/versatility down wasn't an option back when.
Also: Look at remote damps (-48% to -17%), Tracking Distuptors (0.54x to -22.3% or something), and then look at the drone changes (Nerfed drone bays/bandwidth on the Eos, Ishkur, Myrmidon). The following ships have now been turned into paperweights:
Curse, Pilgrim, Lachesis, Arazu, Myrmidon, Ishkur, Celestis
WTC! Unless the recons get their bonuses to EW at least doubled, no longer want to fly any T2 ships.
Also, the scoop/relaunch nerf now means that every drone boat has to carry remote rep or 5 to keep it's drones alive in combat or watch 5m ISK/fleet of drones explode to kill a 20m ISK BC. As well, with the Agressive/Focus Fire options for drones, they'll now (Edit: Fixed this. Originally read 'not' which is the opposite of what I wanted) aggro an ECM ship even if you're jammed and you launch after you get jammed. Currently that only happens if you launch pre-agression.
So, total nerfs (partial list)?
Mods: Tracking Distuptors, Remote Damps, Drones (Kinda: Scoop/relaunch means they really have no survivability when targeted)
Ships: Curse, Pilgrim, Lachesis, Arazu, Myrmidon, Eos, Ishkur, Celestis, Further Nano-Ship nerf (If you cant put in damps or TDs, what else to go in the mids to reduce damage/increase survivbility. A 2-slot shield tank. Pfft.)
Things boosted: Drones get some desperately needed removal of their free will. So what? That's no boost, that's a bug fix! So...
Things boosted: None!
Thanks!
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oDDiTy V2
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.25 23:57:00 -
[24]
Wait, myrm can't field 5 heavies anymore? :\
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Riebart Norith
Gallente
Interstellar Business Federation
Tartarus Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.26 00:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: oDDiTy V2
Wait, myrm can't field 5 heavies anymore? :\
It can field 3 with a 150m3 drone bay.
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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2007.10.26 00:10:00 -
[26]
So the only difference is spares?
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La Jefature
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Posted - 2007.10.26 00:12:00 -
[27]
Edited by: La Jefature on 26/10/2007 00:12:32
Originally by: Jenea
Like a year ago I set my skill to drone interfacing 5 and unsubscribed. I come back to the drone changes; no big deal, they are fixing stuff up and I never really got to experience the hordes of drones. Over the last year I've been expecting to see T2/faction drone modules, faction/officer drones, drone implants, an upgraded drone battleship (we have 5 different versions of the Megathron you know), and maybe some drone damage rigs. No -- none of that. There are industrialist implants and non-working booster implants before there are any drone implants/content.
Simply, the last drone changes were a quick fix; here is max drone DPS and we will add no more content to create a gradual increase of power progression for primary drone users that is seen in other weapon systems. None of those goodies listed above are available for drones. You get in a damn Dominix, get your skills up, maybe put on some T1 modules, and that is it. That is very boring I might add. Not like I can buy a 2 billion ISK module that makes my drones more uber than the next drone user in a Dominix with the same skills with the same modules doing the exact same build as me. Lots of diversity there.
Guess what CCP did this time around? A simplistic quick fix to the issue. Where CCP went wrong is in how they assigned the bandwidth to drones. Does it make any sense that a T1 drone and a T2 drone take the same bandwidth? Many of the problems could have been solved (or at least compromised) by allowing using something like this:
T1 Scout: 5 bandwidth
T2 Scout: 10 bandwidth
Faction Scout: 15 bandwidth
T1 Medium: 15 bandwidth
T2 Medium: 20 bandwidth
Faction Medium: 25 bandwidth
T1 Heavy: 25 bandwidth
etc.
The Raven (75 bandwidth) could then run:
5 T1 Scout (25 bandwidth)
5 T2 Scout (50 bandwidth)
5 Faction Scout (75 bandwidth)
5 T1 Medium (75 bandwidth)
3 T2 Medium (60 bandwidth), 1 T2 Scout (10 bandwidth), 1 T1 Scout (5 bandwidth)
3 Faction Medium (75 bandwidth)
3 T1 Heavy (75 bandwidth)
etc.
Yes, the numbers could be tweaked around to allow most ships to use what they current can use. This was just an example that shows how there would be "diversity and un-nerfing specialized drone ships." Of course, this was just too complex. CCP wanted to do it the easiest way possible, then use the change as an excuse to further minimilize the options for the pure drone user. Don't give me any of that drones are a secondary weapon system and they have to be balanced in line with other weapon systems on the same ship crapola. Drone boats tend to have fewer guns, armor, shields, etc. and should be balanced in context with the whole ship compared to another whole ship.
To further illustrate the simplistic changes implemented, look at the drone skills, they are either rank 1 or rank 5 -- lots of imagination there. Look at the wide variety of drone modules -- lots of imagination there too.
Using varied bandwidth on the T1/T2/Faction drones would still allow ships like the Ishkur and Myrmidon to deploy a set of medium or heavy drones, although maybe not a full set or a full set of T2 drones.
Specifically on the Ishkur, you can still drone 2 medium T2 and 1 scout T2. Okay, yeah, those extra T2 scout drones were breaking the ship. I use the Iskhur for level 2 missions. Guess what? I can do them just as easily in Rifter!
Specifically on the "+X drone bay increase attribute", it is rather weak now. Under the old system, drone bay equaled deployability; now the drone bay is just for storage. Given how some ships are getting a bit of a magical boost to their dronebay, this attribute should now be a bandwidth increase on those ships whi ...
Anyone actually read Jenea's post? She's onto something.
Leave the ships as they are (5 T1 heavies on myrm, etc), but make the T2 take more bandwidth, So you need bships for them. So you can field lots of T1 or less T2.
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Marfew Jae
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Posted - 2007.10.26 00:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Riebart Norith
Things boosted: None!
Thanks!
It's called a Kansas City Shuffle.
Instead of boosting the already below par Ships/Mods and making a lot of people happy they just nerf the better Ships/Mods in an attempt to balance it with the rubbish they've already put in the game.
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Riebart Norith
Gallente
Interstellar Business Federation
Tartarus Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.26 00:18:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Riebart Norith on 26/10/2007 00:21:49
Originally by: Marfew Jae
Originally by: Riebart Norith
Things boosted: None!
Thanks!
It's called a Kansas City Shuffle.
Instead of boosting the already below par Ships/Mods and making a lot of people happy they just nerf the better Ships/Mods in an attempt to balance it with the rubbish they've already put in the game.
So...It's like backpeddling? Sticking your foot in your mouth?
"Oh fudge! We already screwed this stuff up....but not this stuff....what're we gonna do?" "Break it all!" "Good idea! You're promoted!"
Ok. I feel bad, so here's some constructive "what else to do":
I like the make T2 drones take more bandwidth idea. So you'd be able to field 4 T2 heavies on a Myr but 5 T1. That's a good idea. I really have to say I don't like the completely rampant nerfbat swinging. The effects seem completely random. For the remote damps, here's an example of how badly they are breaking the Arazu/Lach:
..Wupz, I'll keep my damp/TD specific ideas out of here, since this is about bandwidth.
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Braise Erighani
Gallente
Galaxia Entertainment
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Posted - 2007.10.26 00:24:00 -
[30]
All this bandwidth thing have been very, very, very badly done.
I'm sorry for the dev that came with that idea, but honestly, this is very poorly thought.
Most whiners about "omg look at drones damage" in these forums focus on the paper damage of drones. Well, why not having used that as a basis for bandwidth use?
They could have given a bandwidth use to drones not based on their mass, which is stupid, but on their actual damage capacity.
Let have a look at the heavies... the tech 1 heavy drones have the following damage modifiers :
Ogre : x1.6
Wasp : x1.45
Berserker : x1.3
Praetor : x1.15
If they had wanted to limit the use of the most damaging heavy drones, they could have used bandwidth to limit, not the number of drones out, but the total amount of damage output out.
Let say that you give those bandwidth use to these same drones :
Ogre : 40 Mb/s
Wasp : 35 Mb/s
Berserker : 30 Mb/s
Praetor : 25 Mb/s
You want a dominix to be able to field the most heavy drones? easy, you give it a bandwidth of 40Mb/s x 5 = 200 Mb/s
You want it to be restricted to 5 wasps, or less than 5 ogres? easy, you give it a bw of 35Mb/s x 5 = 175 Mb/s enough for 5 Wasps, or 4 ogres
You want it to field only 5 Berserker? easy, give it 30Mb/s x 5 = 150 Mb/s, enough for 5 berserker, or 4 Wasps, or 3 ogres.
and you can use the same bandwidth system with all sizes of drones, exactly the same :
medium drones :
Hammerhead : 40 Mb/s
Vespa : 35 Mb/s
Valkyrie : 30 Mb/s
Infiltrator : 25 Mb/s
Light drones :
Hobgobelin : 40 Mb/s
Hornet : 35 Mb/s
Warrior : 30 Mb/s
Acolyte : 25 Mb/s
Maybe this proposition isn't perfect, probably it would have needed more thinking and more tweaking, but at least it would have brought real flexibility in drones setups, and combined with drones bays capacities, would have allowed for many combinations.
And, more important, it would have been more in accordance with current ships capacities, allowing to limit the offensive capabilities of some of them without rendering them useless.
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