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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Khes
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Posted - 2007.10.26 15:51:00 -
[1]
Or should CCP make changes as they see fit, and it is up to them to deside if they want to get input from the community or not?
If the community had the right to deside on changes how would that practically be done? By voting? Whould that work? Im just curious on what the community thinks?
It seems like there are many players out there that thinks (because they are paying customers) they have the right to demand changes and have a veto to say no to suggested changes, and CCP allways should ask the community first before they implement any changes.
Personally I think there are to many personal/individual insterests in the community for it to be able to make a really good decissions for the game as a whole, and I belive CCP has a better position to make such decissions and from a wider perspective. But that is my opinion.
What do you think?
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Grentho
Caldari Wook Recon
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Posted - 2007.10.26 15:53:00 -
[2]
end of the day its ccp's product its up to us if we choose to buy it so really they can do what they like most mmo companies do look at soe *spits*
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.10.26 15:53:00 -
[3]
The new CSM will give you, the players, a way to influence the development. More information of that will be available when the new CSM is announced. It will also be discussed at the Fanfest for those of you who are coming.
Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." |
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
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Posted - 2007.10.26 15:56:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tarminic on 26/10/2007 15:56:12 Is it the community's right? Not really. CCP created the game, we pay for the ability to access it, and we don't really have any right per se.
Originally by: Khes Or should CCP make changes as they see fit, and it is up to them to deside if they want to get input from the community or not?
Yeah, it's up to them. But listening to the community is generally a good idea, but they can't listen too much or give the community more say than hard data.
Quote: If the community had the right to deside on changes how would that practically be done? By voting? Whould that work? Im just curious on what the community thinks?
Unfortunately "the community" is simply majority rule, and majority rule isn't always a good thing. If 51% of players fly a certain ship they're going to get it buffed whether it needs it or not. Counting on people to be fair and impartial is impractical.
Quote: It seems like there are many players out there that thinks (because they are paying customers) they have the right to demand changes and have a veto to say no to suggested changes, and CCP allways should ask the community first before they implement any changes.
Personally I think there are to many personal/individual insterests in the community for it to be able to make a really good decissions for the game as a whole, and I belive CCP has a better position to make such decissions and from a wider perspective. But that is my opinion.
What do you think?
Basically yes - CCP's only stake in the game is to make it better overall and to do this occasionally people get screwed over, it's a fact of life in any large community. In addition, CCP has access to a lot of things that individual players don't and that gives them a better birds-eye view of what's going on. If people really object to a change, the best way for them to get their point across is to vote with your money and leave*.
*Actually leave, not just threaten to leave on the forums. That doesn't work. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by: CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
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Freder1ck
Os Lobos
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:07:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Freder1ck on 26/10/2007 16:07:58 CCP should and "does" hold the role of the impartial parent, who makes the rules, and where necesary changes them based upon what they think is best for the game and us the customer.
Most of the time they get it right, most of the time though their are people that don't like it.
No one likes having change forced on them, but some times i have to admit it is for the best.
Edit;- Can you spot the change???
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Aero089
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:11:00 -
[6]
CCP should keep a stiff upper lip when making changes really. They have a top-down perspective of the game, while we see it from our own perspective.
Our comments may give CCP second thoughts or may reveal problems, perhaps even offer a better solution... but in the end I'd trust CCP more with making the right choices than the biased playerbase.
Yeah, the Eos nerf hurts me. Yeah, I pilot a myrm. Sorry, I don't fly capships. I still agree with CCP though.
(Well, scrap the Eos nerf though. Seriously ;))
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:12:00 -
[7]
I can't help but think this topic was prompted by my thread here. You should note I stated up front that EVE should not be designed by the players.
CCP has a clear vision of what they want EVE to be and it is ONLY CCP who gets to decide this in the end.
That said there is nothing wrong with listening to players and being communicative with them. For CCP to develop EVE in a vacuum and never pay attention to what their community thinks is silly. The community does not get a vote or a veto but they do get an opinion. CCP can listen to those opinions and make up their own mind on where to go. Many opinions are crap but they have a rather savvy and intelligent playerbase compared to most other MMOs and even the Devs can gain something by listening.
Of course, in order for the community to provide meaningful feedback the Devs need to communicate what they are on about and what they are thinking. They do this in some cases (such as with carriers recently) and the community can respond more effectively.
Sounds like Wrangler was saying they are implementing something along these lines in the near future which sounds great. I just hope it isn't a placebo (like a "Suggestions" box in a store which usually gets circular filed at the end of each day).
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:15:00 -
[8]
Its fine as it is at the moment, ccp listens to their players but does not let them be ruled by them.
The moment it turns into a democracy is the moment where this game will go to the dogs.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kerfira on 26/10/2007 16:22:34 I suggested this in another thread (in response to the most recent carrier nerf):
Originally by: Kerfira CCP!
Please take a step back from the nerf-bat, and provide us with this:
1. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in 0.0. 2. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in low-sec. 3. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in high-sec. 4. Outline your vision for how battles are supposed to be. 5. Get a discussion with the community how to achieve this. 6. Modify your vision with the good points raised in the discussion. 7. Outline your plan for how you want to get to that point. 8. Discuss this with the community. 9. Adjust your plan with the good points raised in the discussion. 10. Implement!
All these individual random-looking nerfs/changes that you continuously spring on people doesn't go down well, since we don't know what your vision is! It makes your changes seem random and makes it look like you have no clue to how people actually play the game and uses its features.
This would still leave CCP in complete control of what's being put into the game (as they should have), but would make the process transparent and would allow for valuable player input.
I think the transparency and vision is the critical parts. Atm. we (the players) have no information about either. This makes us unable to: a. Help in the process b. Understand why changes/nerfs are happening ...leading to players feeling neglected when they feel they have something to contribute.... Not a good thing....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Akusa Nihil
Aulari Defense Systems
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:21:00 -
[10]
So how's that player council coming, btw?
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kerfira CCP!
Please take a step back from the nerf-bat, and provide us with this:
1. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in 0.0. 2. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in low-sec. 3. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in high-sec. 4. Outline your vision for how battles are supposed to be. 5. Get a discussion with the community how to achieve this. 6. Modify your vision with the good points raised in the discussion. 7. Outline your plan for how you want to get to that point. 8. Discuss this with the community. 9. Adjust your plan with the good points raised in the discussion. 10. Implement!
Or:
Step 1: Decide on nerf Step 2: ??? Step 3: Money!
(Sorry...couldn't resist)
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:26:00 -
[12]
If it was all voted by the players we'd all be flying 100 drones each out of Homer Simpson Cars, with auto tractors and looters working instantly from 500k/m, with little pockets of security that follow us around, so pirates have a 0.1 bubble around them and carebears a 1.0.
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Galactic reporter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Please take a step back from the nerf-bat, and provide us with this:
1. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in 0.0. 2. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in low-sec. 3. Outline your vision for how it's supposed to be to live in high-sec. 4. Outline your vision for how battles are supposed to be. 5. Get a discussion with the community how to achieve this. 6. Modify your vision with the good points raised in the discussion. 7. Outline your plan for how you want to get to that point. 8. Discuss this with the community. 9. Adjust your plan with the good points raised in the discussion. 10. Implement!
/signed!! so bad
- PEITION AGAINST THE CARRIER/MOTHERSHIP NERF!
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Kirren D'marr
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:48:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kirren D''marr on 26/10/2007 16:55:17 The way I see it, as subscribing players, we are like investors in the game. We put in our monthly investment and we expect a return, that return being our experience in the game. It is the company's responsibility both ethically, and in most countries legally, to keep its investors informed of any coming changes in company practices, products, or plans that may affect the investments. So yes, I believe that CCP and any other gaming company has an obligation to inform its playerbase of coming changes at least a month before those changes go live so that if players object to those changes, they have time to cancel their subscriptions or "investments" prior to the change takiing place.
In the end, it is CCP's decision on what changes to make, but they need to keep us informed (which by the way, from what I have seen has been done fairly well). It would be in their best interests to keep open communication with the players, and accept input or suggestions, but they have the final say. If they decide to make a change which a large portion of the playerbase objects to, then they should expect that such a change could cause a drop in subscriptions. Whether or not the change is worth such a loss is their judgement call.
Remember, CCP owns eve and can make whatever changes they choose. We own our money and can choose to pay for those changes or to not pay. It's that simple.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kirren D'marr The way I see it, as subscribing players, we are like investors in the game.
You see it incorrectly.
If CCP were not a private owned company (I believe it is) then you could invest in stock in the company and that investement would give you some say in the running of the company.
As a player you are paying a monthly fee to play the game. No more. No less.
Not saying that players shouldn't necessarily be excluded from any input, but to suggest CCP have a moral or legal obligation to do so is untrue.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:56:00 -
[16]
we deserve to know what is changing, yes, and they let us know, thats fine
we shouldn't have any REAL say in HOW it changes because lets face it, community has destroyed more mmo's than powerfailures and SOE combined I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear
What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan! |
SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2007.10.26 16:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: SoftRevolution on 26/10/2007 16:57:44
Originally by: CCP Wrangler The new CSM will give you, the players, a way to influence the development. More information of that will be available when the new CSM is announced. It will also be discussed at the Fanfest for those of you who are coming.
Learn from SWG.
Jebus.
Learn from SOE generally.
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Khes
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I can't help but think this topic was prompted by my thread.
You are right, it actually was But not by thinking you ment anything other then that Eve should not be designed by players.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler The new CSM will give you, the players, a way to influence the development. More information of that will be available when the new CSM is announced. It will also be discussed at the Fanfest for those of you who are coming.
That sounds GREAT, looking forward to see how it turns out.
Originally by: Kirren D'marr The way I see it, as subscribing players, we are like investors in the game. We put in our monthly investment and we expect a return, that return being our experience in the game. It is the company's responsibility both ethically, and in most countries legally, to keep its investors informed of any coming changes in company practices, products, or plans that may affect the investments. So yes, I believe that CCP and any other gaming company has an obligation to inform its playerbase of coming changes at least a month before those changes go live so that if players object to those changes, they have time to cancel their subscriptions or "investments" prior to the change takiing place.
In a way the Dev Blogs informs the investors on upcoming changes.
I just miss a way for the community to give feedback without it getting lost in forum posts where 50% is pure spam. :)] But it looks like we perhaps we will get something in those lines in a near future.
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Menellaix
Angel of War Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:02:00 -
[19]
I have a right to my own life. I have a right to my own property. I do NOT have a right to control the development/deployment of a particular product. For an example of what happens when a communiry decides it should have control over the products of its economy, refer to the history of the CCCP.
It is, however, wise to seek feedback during the development of a product. CCP does a fantastic job in that regard.
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Siresa Talesi
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:03:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Kirren D'marr The way I see it, as subscribing players, we are like investors in the game.
You see it incorrectly.
If CCP were not a private owned company (I believe it is) then you could invest in stock in the company and that investement would give you some say in the running of the company.
As a player you are paying a monthly fee to play the game. No more. No less.
Not saying that players shouldn't necessarily be excluded from any input, but to suggest CCP have a moral or legal obligation to do so is untrue.
I don't mean they are obligated to accept our input, just obligated to keep us informed. They can take or leave our input as they choose, but financially it is often in their best interests to consider the players' input. You can bet that if I'm not getting my desired return, I'll discontinue my investment.
As for their legal obligations, I hate to drag out the dead horse, and I'm not trying to compare CCP with SOE, but consider this: When SOE sprung the NGE on the SWG players with short notice, they very quickly began offering refunds for those who had paid for long-term (greater than 1 month) subscritions whose end dates extended beyond the start of the NGE. This was after several lawsuits over failure to disclose were threatened. So at least on some level, there is a legal obligation to keep players informed of changes.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler The new CSM will give you, the players, a way to influence the development. More information of that will be available when the new CSM is announced. It will also be discussed at the Fanfest for those of you who are coming.
ok, even though i must admit that sometimes i think CCP makes some really REALLY st00pid mistakes in nerfing/changing/boosting something, i don't want it to be entirely playerbased, the playerbase having a say in it is one thing but sometimes ccp needs to protect us from ourselves.
Just think of it, if the players had their way, we would prolly all be flying titans right now CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
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Jita Alt
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:21:00 -
[22]
the only right we have is the right to cancel our accounts __________________________________ Calling you an idiot on a forum nearby |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jita Alt the only right we have is the right to cancel our accounts
True, but you also have some privileges, like posting in this forum for one. Being able to participate in the CSM is another.
One thing that's important to remember is that the community or playerbase or whatever you want to call it that shows up on these forums is a small minority of everyone playing EVE. And since people generally complain 10 times for every positive thing they say, it's not accuratly representing all EVE players. That being said, I do enjoy the community here, wouldn't be doing this job if I didn't.
Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." |
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Gloria Stitz
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Jita Alt the only right we have is the right to cancel our accounts
True, but you also have some privileges, like posting in this forum for one. Being able to participate in the CSM is another.
One thing that's important to remember is that the community or playerbase or whatever you want to call it that shows up on these forums is a small minority of everyone playing EVE. And since people generally complain 10 times for every positive thing they say, it's not accuratly representing all EVE players. That being said, I do enjoy the community here, wouldn't be doing this job if I didn't.
I've got a feeling you're writing a book about it, and it will be a hoot
------------- 'Don't try to learn Eve all at once, otherwise your brain will explode' - Albert Einstein ------------ |
XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.26 17:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Jita Alt the only right we have is the right to cancel our accounts
True, but you also have some privileges, like posting in this forum for one. Being able to participate in the CSM is another.
One thing that's important to remember is that the community or playerbase or whatever you want to call it that shows up on these forums is a small minority of everyone playing EVE. And since people generally complain 10 times for every positive thing they say, it's not accuratly representing all EVE players. That being said, I do enjoy the community here, wouldn't be doing this job if I didn't.
Man, Wrangler is busy on the forums today!
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