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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.10.28 03:23:00 -
[1]
A lot of the complaints around nerfs are centered around the time it can take to train for a ship and it can take a lot of time to cross train across the various races to fly the different ships.
A new cross training skill that enabled players with SP invested in any of the T2 ships to fl the other races equivalent T2 ship. The skill itself could be called "Intuitive ship command" and would only apply to sub capitols and have attributes something like this:-
Intuitive ship command
Increases a pilots ability to Interpret ships command and interfacing systems intuitivly allowing for understanding of the new generation Tech 2 technology across the racial ship classes
Skill Rank 8
Prerequisites
Advanced spaceship command I
Applicable T2 ship skill III
Prerequisites for each class
Frigate hulls
Intuitive ship command level I
Caldari/Minmatar/Amarr/Gallente Frigate level V
Cruiser hulls
Intuitive ship command level III
Caldari/Minmatar/Amarr/Gallente Cruiser level V
Battleship hulls
Intuitive ship command level V
Caldari/Minmatar/Amarr/Gallente Battleship level V
This is a clumsy description so if someone could lay it out in a better way or description feel free.
There are some downsides but it would also boost newer players to the game by reducing the limits of which racial ships they can fly and provide a boost to older players to as they can limit tedious cross training time and concentrate on other areas of their skill tree and when the nerf bats lands on a particular ship they can fly another ship in the same class.
 Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.10.28 03:34:00 -
[2]
No.
It's called training the relevant ship skills (frigate or cruiser) for the races you want to 5. What you are proposing is a major shortcut.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.10.28 03:39:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 28/10/2007 03:43:38
Yes it is a major shortcut, a shortcut removing repetitive time sinking cross training and is a shortcut that has potential benefits for everyone (well except for people who have cross trained every race)
Its not like the actual races of players matter much now anyway and this skill would only apply to the T2 versions of the ships.
If you feel this is a bad idea explain why please Because in all honesty I cant see how.
Taking this proposal if you are HAC trained and train this skill you are only removing 50% of the time it would take to able to fly all the HACs and then factor in you would still need to train the weapons and other racially specific modules to use the ships effectively its not such a huge shortcut after all.
All it does is remove a time sink.
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.28 03:39:00 -
[4]
How about this skill (no prerequisites, rank 1, costs 1 ISK in every school station) : "Wildcard" or "Joker".
It replaces ANY skill prerequisite you want to.
...that was sarcasm, by the way.
_
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.10.28 03:51:00 -
[5]
Or why not just train only one, or maybe two, races' skills instead of constantly chasing after the next trendy ship and setup to fly.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.10.28 03:55:00 -
[6]
Thank you for the insights so far they are real gems 
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Menkaure
Amarr
Vanitas Corp.
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Posted - 2007.10.28 04:08:00 -
[7]
So you want everyone to have the ability to fly everything?
....no.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.10.28 04:19:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 28/10/2007 04:19:42
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Thank you for the insights so far they are real gems
Ok, why not just ask CCP to remove the entire skill system and give all characters access to all ships, modules and current skill bonuses? That would certainly be a HUGE "time sink" removal.
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Jay Daed
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Posted - 2007.10.28 04:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Thank you for the insights so far they are real gems
No no, thank YOU for your great idea
/sarc.
Btw, I have every race frig @ V. every race cruiser @ V and 2 races bs @ V. Im sure people who put this much time into cross training wouldnt mind being ****** over so much...
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Baleur
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:05:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Baleur on 28/10/2007 05:08:10
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
No.
It's called training the relevant ship skills (frigate or cruiser) for the races you want to 5. What you are proposing is a major shortcut.
If the said shortcut (this proposed new skill) does NOT include the races ship skills bonuses, i'd say its pretty much even..
Think about it, you are amarr, and if you want you could train this new skill to lvl 5 and fly caldari, minmatar and gallente ships. But with none of their racial bonuses that is given like "5% missile speed increase per Caldari Cruiser skill level".
Know what i mean? So basically you would at least be able to fly the ships, but you wouldnt have the bonuses you'd have if you would train the single correct racial ship skill.
I think thats a pretty even deal.
This way, you could train this skill to gain quick access to alot of different ships, in your corp's hangar for example. But you wouldnt gain the benefits of each ship.
And considering the magnitude of some of those bonuses, like the gallente 25% increase to hybrid damage at gallente whatever lvl 5, i dont think the quicker training time would unbalance anything.
It would still be useless in pvp against someone that trained the "old fashined way", but at least you would have quick access to ships in the hangar for ratting or mining.
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This post represents my entire corporation's views and opinions. ;> |
Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:17:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 28/10/2007 05:24:17
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Ok, why not just ask CCP to remove the entire skill system and give all characters access to all ships, modules and current skill bonuses? That would certainly be a HUGE "time sink" removal.
I guess you like time sinks, But my idea was not about modules or bonuses just removing repetitive training for the T2 ships. Again you fail at providing even the slightest counter argument to my proposal and just keep posting over reactive generalisations.
If my idea is so bad Explain why its so bad.
Originally by: Jay Daed
Btw, I have every race frig @ V. every race cruiser @ V and 2 races bs @ V. Im sure people who put this much time into cross training wouldnt mind being ****** over so much...
Ok putting aside the "I had to sink time into cross training so everyone in the whole future of EVE has to do it to" factor of your post and take the unbiased plain truth that many players have already signed up to the massive time sink of repetitive cross training.
I guess a lot of people got upset when new players started at a much higher level SP than they did or they resented the new bloodlines, and this of course is fully understandable and its understandable that people are unhappy about the amount of time it took them to train certain ships only for them to be adjusted in unfavourable manner.
A cross training skill would help to reduce this in the future as if a ship gets rebalanced in a negative manner you can fly the other ships so even the players that are somewhat cross trained but not totally will be better off for such a skill.
Is there reason that such a skill is unbeneficial in anyway? of course an idea that is not unbeneficial is not necessarily beneficial but I think the merits of this speak for themselves.
Weeks/months of what basically is repeat training is not fun and does not positively enhance game play and only serves restricts it.
Originally by: Baleur
If the said shortcut (this proposed new skill) does NOT include the races ship skills bonuses,.
That would work well so I have to agree and only receive the T2 ships bonuses, You could further refine this by including the racial ship bonuses you do receive so for an example if you had minmatar frigate to level III and where flying a Jaguar you wouldn't receive the full Rifter bonus to small projectile damage and tracking, This would give specialised pilots that slight edge and factor in a penalty for not being fully trained in that class of ships nuances.
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
I guess you like time sinks, But my idea was not about modules or bonuses just removing repetitive training for the T2 ships. Again you fail at providing even the slightest counter argument to my proposal and just keep posting over reactive generalisations.
If my idea is so bad Explain why its so bad.
Your whole argument seems to rest on, more or less, "waiting for skill training is bad" and "I need to be able to fly any ship out there so I will always have access to the next FOTM".
So, why not just ask for the whole skill training system to be removed completely?
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Jay Daed
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:24:00 -
[13]
Go back to WoW
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:27:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 28/10/2007 05:40:34
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
If my idea is so bad Explain why its so bad.
Your whole argument seems to rest on, more or less, "waiting for skill training is bad" and "I need to be able to fly any ship out there so I will always have access to the next FOTM".
So, why not just ask for the whole skill training system to be removed completely?
No I'm not saying waiting for skill training is bad, I'm saying that repetitive training of skills you have basically already trained is an avoidable time sink, especially when some of them have fairly long training times. Further more my proposal is not a complete by pass of cross training it merely reduces a proportion of the time and replaces it with a skill that in itself is a substantial training time.
Originally by: Jay Daed
Go back to WoW
You spectacularly fail in every way, Not only have I never played WoW this proposal of mine is no way relevant or comparable to WoW in any shape or form as WoW classes are fixed and no way of cross training what so ever.
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Das Lol
Gallente
Internet Space Fighters
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:48:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Das Lol on 28/10/2007 05:49:02
Sorry, but no.
I am trying my absolute hardest not to flame here, which is really really hard for me.
You're saying 'time sink' like it's a bad thing. It's not. The entire point of T2 is that it takes time to skill up for. You get something in return for this time spent. Namely, better equipment/ships. If you were to make it so that one didn't have to train Racial Shiptype 5, then there would be no incentive to properly specialize and research what you want. This is also a way to reward older players. Doing this would take all the effort out of getting a T2 ship. Do you think anyone would ever bother getting any other racial ship to 5 if this happened? Certainly not.
This is essentially 'respecing'. There is no respecing in Eve.
The 20 days for Cruiser 5 sucks, but it's worth it. Not only do you get T2 ships, but you get enhanced usability from T1 ships.
tl;dr: No. Be more patient.
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Jay Daed
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Posted - 2007.10.28 07:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Originally by: Jay Daed
Go back to WoW
You spectacularly fail in every way, Not only have I never played WoW this proposal of mine is no way relevant or comparable to WoW in any shape or form as WoW classes are fixed and no way of cross training what so ever.
Go back to Hello Kitty Fun Time Land
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jay Daed
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Originally by: Jay Daed
Go back to WoW
You spectacularly fail in every way, Not only have I never played WoW this proposal of mine is no way relevant or comparable to WoW in any shape or form as WoW classes are fixed and no way of cross training what so ever.
Go back to Hello Kitty Fun Time Land
Your still posting? I bet it took you all night to figure out this latest insult, "Ugg me caveman needz insults??!? I fink I will borra the go back to hello kitty online hurr hurr that will show dem how clever I is"
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Jay Daed
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Your still posting?
Yep I'm still posting.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:31:00 -
[19]
I'm currently training the other race ship skills. I came to realising that the real time consumer was all the aside skills which I already have so I thought why not train frig/cruiser for every race?
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Visible Implants - good for so many occasions |
Jay Daed
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Adonis 4174
I'm currently training the other race ship skills. I came to realising that the real time consumer was all the aside skills which I already have so I thought why not train frig/cruiser for every race?
Exactly what I did. I started out minmatar. I minmatar spec'd for quite a while. Trained a bunch of shield tanking skills and thought *might as well train caldari since I'm training shields* Trained caldari a bit and since I didnt wanna go with much missiles I trained up hybrids for the harpy, eagle, etc. After I trained hybrids I thought *might as well train gallente* so I did, while training gallente I trained armor tanking skills needed to tank gallente ships, which lead to training amarr.
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:54:00 -
[21]
Um sorry no EvE doesnt need to get any easier than it is right now, it has already been watered down due to all the patches over the years.
*signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.28 09:31:00 -
[22]
There are. They are called interceptors, assault ships, heavy assault ships, recons, interdictors.
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng.
I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.28 09:35:00 -
[23]
No shortcuts allowed mister. 
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Join BH-DL |
Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.10.28 09:54:00 -
[24]
CCP have stated that the way ship skills work has been designed like it has for a reason.
T1 anyone can become a master of T1, it just takes some time and not alot at that.
for this reason very few T1 items require skills at lev V.
Remember that training a skill to lev IV takes a shorter time than training from lev IV to V.
T2 was to be different, some specialization will be needed here.
Requiering many lev V skills T2 stuff require alot more time to get access to wich will force people toi choose wich areas to specialize in.
T3 when it arrives will require even more specialization, aparently even long time players will have to specialize greatly with those ships.
Thus a skill that allowes you the ability to fly more skills is pointless as its againt the intent of the game.
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Drenan
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Posted - 2007.10.28 11:31:00 -
[25]
Interesting idea from the OP.
CCP do seem to be aware of the inherent flaws in the current system (skill queue/dual training etc), and I wait patiently to see what they come up with.
Perhaps one of the problems with skill training in its current form is that CCP devs were overly influenced in the beginning by the mind-bendingly tedious 'Elite'.
Also, there is an old-guard of 'vets' in Eve who seem to equate the tedium of long skills training with some sort of 'effort' on their part?
Modern MMO's should aim to have a player sufficiently skilled to compete in the high-level game at around 18 months. This is currently possible in Eve...but only if you specialise in one area.
Eve's long term success probably lies in making the game more challenging and enjoyable content wise, but at the same time making that challenging content more rapidly accessible via a less tedious skilling system?
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Das Lol
Gallente
Internet Space Fighters
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Posted - 2007.10.28 11:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Drenan
only if you specialise in one area.
Welcome to eve online.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.10.28 21:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Drenan
Modern MMO's should aim to have a player sufficiently skilled to compete in the high-level game at around 18 months. This is currently possible in Eve...but only if you specialise in one area.
Eve's long term success probably lies in making the game more challenging and enjoyable content wise, but at the same time making that challenging content more rapidly accessible via a less tedious skilling system?
Totally disagree. Look, either the skill training is simply there as an initial barrier keeping you away from all the nice goodies only for a certain time and then you have access to them like everyone else, or training is something you constantly do and even if you've been playing for years and years you still can't even get more than a small fraction of the total skill points that can be trained (and new skills are added all the time).
In the case of the former, I'd say that system is artificial and pointless. Much better to just remove it completely and have everything accessible to everyone.
The latter is what we actually have in Eve at the moment. You're supposed to specialize. You're not supposed to be able to do everything. And personally I love it. First of all, I love the fact that I can shape my character (well, characters, as I now have 2) any way I want with training. Secondly, I (thankfully) don't have a huge ego like so many other Eve players. I can go out on a op (say with a small roaming gang) flying a tech 1 frigate with tech 1 equipment and have just as much fun as I would have flying a tech 2 ships with all tech 2 equipment and rigs.
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Shadow XII
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Posted - 2007.10.28 21:29:00 -
[28]
There are two things wrong with this:
1. You're Amarrian.
2. This is a stupid shortcut. It's pretty much allowing anyone who's anyone to be able to use t2 guns without their proper skills.
The idea of skill training is 'Becoming a master pilot takes time'.
You might as well sell skill training hours for ISK.
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Arii Smith
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.10.28 21:36:00 -
[29]
Your proposal is just so dumb that I cannot respond rationally.
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Lord Evangelian
Gallente
LEAP Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.28 22:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
A lot of the complaints around nerfs are centered around the time it can take to train for a ship and it can take a lot of time to cross train across the various races to fly the different ships.
A new cross training skill that enabled players with SP invested in any of the T2 ships to fl the other races equivalent T2 ship. The skill itself could be called "Intuitive ship command" and would only apply to sub capitols and have attributes something like this:-
Intuitive ship command
Increases a pilots ability to Interpret ships command and interfacing systems intuitivly allowing for understanding of the new generation Tech 2 technology across the racial ship classes
Skill Rank 8
Prerequisites
Advanced spaceship command I
Applicable T2 ship skill III
Prerequisites for each class
Frigate hulls
Intuitive ship command level I
Caldari/Minmatar/Amarr/Gallente Frigate level V
Cruiser hulls
Intuitive ship command level III
Caldari/Minmatar/Amarr/Gallente Cruiser level V
Battleship hulls
Intuitive ship command level V
Caldari/Minmatar/Amarr/Gallente Battleship level V
This is a clumsy description so if someone could lay it out in a better way or description feel free.
There are some downsides but it would also boost newer players to the game by reducing the limits of which racial ships they can fly and provide a boost to older players to as they can limit tedious cross training time and concentrate on other areas of their skill tree and when the nerf bats lands on a particular ship they can fly another ship in the same class.
HAHA ya know what I think...
Why is it that all of the ideas that never make it into the game becuase they have never really been throught out start in General Discussion, but, all of the well tought ideas that could work, benifit and seem popular always are in Features and Ideas Discussion.
Heres a tip, if you have a uber fantastic idea that you think is cool, and you open the forum and think...LEMMI TELL EVERY ONE IN GENERAL DISS,......stop, scrap it becuase its crap.
hey that rhymes.
Scrap it, cos its crap...pit 
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My Pro-CCP Post |
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