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Ethan Hunte TARDZ	Posted - 2007.10.29 04:31:00 - [1] After just reading about another nice corp theft subsequent to corp invasion and granting of roles, I have but to wonder a few things. The game mechanics and rules and CCP don't mind corp theft, they don't care. But it's an exploit. It's an exploit because you gave roles to someone for a specific purpose to help the corporation not destroy, and they used the game mechanics for a purpose not intended, yet it is not seen as an exploit. However, why then can the CEO not keep giving you roles, keep your sorry little ass in the corporation until you decide to give everything back? You will argue, that is abuse of game mechanics, using roles for something it wasn't designed for, and that is why you can petition harassment and a game master will move you out of the corp. But I say to you, if you can twist the game mechanics to your liking, using roles to steal from a corp(which they weren't meant for), why then can that same corp not protect itself by in term using roles to keep you in the corp, so you can do nothing else in eve.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 04:39:00 - [2] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 29/10/2007 04:40:22 Unfortunately your logic is faulty, even though corp theft is never fun....However, abusing someone's trust is not an exploit, nor will it ever been one. Repetitively adding roles to keep someone in the corp is FORCING someone in a situation where they have no choice. Giving out corporate roles though is not something you're forced to do..that's a matter of trust.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 04:42:00 - [3] u never know what people are trully like until u give them responsability, corp theft is crappy but u got ur winners and loosers
Mirirar Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2007.10.29 04:51:00 - [4] I don't think you know what 'exploit' means.
Hakar Kerarmor Gallente Arctic Productions	Posted - 2007.10.29 04:53:00 - [5] But, the roles are meant for allowing you to take stuff out of the corporation hangar.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.10.29 05:43:00 - [6] trust me, when they tried to call things like pos bowling and ,hitting at wracks that a titan killed to bring the titan back and afk killing him, a feature then you will get a hard time making them do anything against it. although i do agree that they should seriously do something about all that exploiting going on instead of incuraging it by letting them gain from it.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.10.29 05:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Cadela Fria Edited by: Cadela Fria on 29/10/2007 04:40:22 Unfortunately your logic is faulty, even though corp theft is never fun....However, abusing someone's trust is not an exploit, nor will it ever been one. Repetitively adding roles to keep someone in the corp is FORCING someone in a situation where they have no choice. Giving out corporate roles though is not something you're forced to do..that's a matter of trust. its a mechanic abuse since you cannot prevent it in any way by mechanic as you would be able to irl. and the mechanic is not made with the PURPOSE! the purpose of people ripping the corp of. therefore an exploit. unintended use of a feature.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.29 05:51:00 - [8] I think it should be an exploit. The amount of spying and theft going on really does drag down the game :(. I think it should be an exploit though because there is a skewered risk vs reward involved. With alts as plentiful as there are most of the good corp thieves/spies just move the gear to another toon and recycle or sell the character. Thus there is no real risk involved which when compared to everything else skewers the reward system of the game.
Dirk Magnum Red Light Enterprises Eastern Star Federation	Posted - 2007.10.29 06:01:00 - [9] Exploit nothing. Corp theft is what you get for giving a jackass any roles, and roles are what that jackass gets for faking loyalty to you for so long (maybe even losing some of his own ships to his original corp in the process.) The art of intrigue is something not seen in ANY other MMORPG as far as I know, and taking it away from Eve would be a loss.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:02:00 - [10] As much as I hate corp theft, though know it's part of the game (I love espionage), there is usually no one to blame but the CEO/directors. Most corp thefts involve giving a new corp member permissions they shouldn't have. This is usually followed by, "I spoke to him on TS and he seemed like an honorable guy." For these I have no sympathy. If you give someone access to hangers or POSes after an interview or a couple days in game, usually because they know how everything works, then you have no one to blame but yourself. I could enter many corps out there and "prove" my loyalty with a quick action or knowledge of the game, but that doesn't mean I'm actually loyal to the corp. True loyalty comes from long-term service and dedication to the corp. That's when you start assigning roles and giving permissions. Usually this pays off. Sometimes, however, and I know of many examples (GHSC), the thieves in question have been loyal members for years, but only show their true colors after a very long period. These are the corps I truly feel sorry for. They have shown their support to a member who has backstabbed them. The member in question has done nothing but help the corp for years, and earned its trust, only to steal millions (it used to be a lot) or billions of ISK worth of material from them. There's little I can say to these people, but offer my condolences. The corps, however, and there are many, who give clearance to brand new members are just asking for theft. It may not happen now, but it will. For them, I have little sympathy. They usually follow their guts instead of their brains, and do stupid things that people in the real world wouldn't do, no matter how drunk they are. I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Ethan Hunte The game mechanics and rules and CCP don't mind corp theft, they don't care. But it's an exploit. It's an exploit because you gave roles to someone for a specific purpose to help the corporation not destroy, and they used the game mechanics for a purpose not intended, yet it is not seen as an exploit. As was pointed out earlier, your logic is faulty. If CCP allow corp theft to happen (or indeed encourage it as a darker aspect of game play - and they do indeed do this) then it stands to reason that the game mechanics that they've provided must in turn allow for it and are therefore meant to facilitate it as another aspect of game play. Which means nothing is exploited, aside from trust between individuals. It can be a big, bad world out there and EVE is meant to be a darker sort of game. Originally by: Ethan Hunte However, why then can the CEO not keep giving you roles, keep your sorry little ass in the corporation until you decide to give everything back? Because in that scenario you can easily transfer assets (liquid or not) to other characters and leave the "blown" character behind. On top of that, I would question how many chief executive officers are going to allow a rotten apple to hang in their tree, perhaps forever. Corp mail, corp chat and the ability to influence others around you are powerful tools in the hands of those who know how to manipulate them. Originally by: Ethan Hunte You will argue, that is abuse of game mechanics, using roles for something it wasn't designed for, and that is why you can petition harassment and a game master will move you out of the corp. You're neglecting to consider the potential for cases where someone is falsely accused, either by mistake or the malice of others. Originally by: Ethan Hunte But I say to you, if you can twist the game mechanics to your liking, using roles to steal from a corp(which they weren't meant for), why then can that same corp not protect itself by in term using roles to keep you in the corp, so you can do nothing else in eve. To sum up, corp theft is an exploit of trust, nothing more - because it is expressly allowed by CCP, which means your argument is based on an incorrect assertion.
Harriet Hargot Caldari Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.10.29 09:01:00 - [12] My view. The sad fact is that the "Roles" authorisation models that CCP have built into Eve are complex in design but yet inconsistent and confusing for the user attempting to set authorities. Even worse, the complex "rights" that can be granted are not explained ANYWHERE. Eve has the start of an excellent Access and Authorisation model that has failed to keep up with game feature changes and has become a badly planned mess that is confusing and does not behave as intended. Many new features have been jammed into existing security models EG ship bays in carriers which don't really fit. Ie the owner of carriers can't remove ships from their own carrier. Another example: Half of the time when granting roles to my members who want to say, run a research or mining POS in sovereign space, I need to give them roles to do silly things like refuel them or perform invention. These roles mean they can offline and steal all corp POS. (Don't have exact detail as I no longer have access to this kind of equipment. ;-) Fortunately. POS suck the fun out of Eve if you help run a corp.) In short. Corp theft is hard to prevent by CEO's if they want ANY of their members to take advantage of more complex features. I think it is ultimately unavoidable. We ended up having to trust some people who proved to be very trustworthy but the next one???? Who knows. Harriet
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.10.29 09:15:00 - [13] Your corp name is Tardz. That I agree with. No corp theft is not an exploit and it's not abusing game mechanics. The ROLES were designed to give people the ability to take things from your corp hanger. Thats all. Roles were not designed to magically make sure everyone in your corp is trustworthy. It's also not an exploit for your corp mates to turn around and blow your ship up because you said something they didn't like. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Sixtina KL	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:25:00 - [14] ITT: BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! __________________________________
Die Unknown Amarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:33:00 - [15] Internet spaceships is an exploit! Warping is an exploit! Forum posting is an exploit.. I think you get the message
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Frug Your corp name is Tardz. That I agree with. No corp theft is not an exploit and it's not abusing game mechanics. The ROLES were designed to give people the ability to take things from your corp hanger. Thats all. Roles were not designed to magically make sure everyone in your corp is trustworthy. It's also not an exploit for your corp mates to turn around and blow your ship up because you said something they didn't like. hehehe, blowing up your commander cause he's a jackass is fun =p well, my corp has been a victim of corp thiefs a few times now. some times they just stolen some crappy t1 equipment (container logs ftw), another one cleaned out one of our pos's (they stole the ships, he couldn't tough the pos itself, we don't give those roles out to anybody ;) ). so it DOES happen, to everybody, sooner or later. we have multiple levels of security, and nobody will ever get access to take the containers from the hangars. and high secure containers are passworded. still you can't stop them, it just reduces the damage caused. but unfortunatly, nobody in my corp has corp hangar access ='(. because CCP ****** up the roles. if you want to take FROM the containers, you need to be able to TAKE the entire container. and so bypassing the logs. GEE! THNX CCP >_<
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:18:00 - [17] I don't mind the current system too much since you can prevent corp theft for the most part, but a few more tools to help in the job would be nice. Could use a few more hangars, and especially the ability to lockdown containers so people can just take stuff from a container and not the whole thing... ------------------------------------------------
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Sovereign533 but unfortunatly, nobody in my corp has corp hangar access ='(. because CCP ****** up the roles. if you want to take FROM the containers, you need to be able to TAKE the entire container. and so bypassing the logs. GEE! THNX CCP >_< That's not true. Try giving an alt of yours the roles to take stuff from a hangar, and try stealing the container. You'll find that you need the "Container Access" role to move the containers out of the hangar. You can safely give the role "take from hangar" to a member, along with a container password if necessary, and he will be able to take stuff from inside the container, while not being able to take the container itself. Keep in mind that the contents of the container will need to be unlocked. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:03:00 - [19] It is NOT an exploit in any way shape or form, It WAS your fault you got robbed, better luck next time.

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