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Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.29 06:38:00 - [1] maybe it's time to put up a wishlist for market improvements in the game that hopefully will be passed on to the devs for implementation (or at least get looked at) My personal wishlist is the following: * Shares listed in the wallet journal for transactions * In game stockmarket - similar to the current market, have corps check a box as to whether they are private or public, if public they get listed in the market after the next downtime. Shares become buyable/sellable through this interface. Will also allow for the nice graphs we get for how many shares are sold/bought as per the current market system. * Corporate dividend payout graphing - accessible as a new tab in the Corp Info that comes up when you do a show info on the corp in question. It might help the general public to see what corps to invest in. yes, i realize that doing the above would make EGSEx and RESX pretty much useless for anything but non-share bond sales, but it's about time that we got a decent market interface for what is a growing section of the market. so, anyone else want to add things to the list or point out my insanity? ---------------------- sig out of order, returning soon FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.29 06:48:00 - [2] There's a lot of snarky stuff I want to say about the attention the market gets in this game, but I'll hold it. Complete redesign of the market interface Redesign contracts again, but do it right this time *the ability to export more information from the client <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:07:00 - [3] Edited by: Shadarle on 29/10/2007 07:14:09 Edited by: Shadarle on 29/10/2007 07:09:44 Short of a market overhaul: Colorized orders on the market details window which would show your orders, your corp orders, other Quickbar folders Ability to modify multiple orders at once by either X amount of ISK or X% The ability to make new Order tabs with filters The ability to change the parameters in market graphs Exportability of market data Ability to save contract search parameters into a quickbar for the contract window Ability to save market searches to the quickbar Market like interface for shares Ability to trade/sell GTC's in game through the market Graphs and contract history for items sold through public contracts Ability to make the Order Window horizontal instead of vertical or make the Selling and Buying sections separate windows so widescreen/multiple monitors are more useful A watch list window that we can flag orders to "watch", they will then show up in this window and update in the window as they sell I could keep going... these are just off the top of my head. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Zerodot Saleswench Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:22:00 - [4] ISD != devs, but... Bring back the hidden market. Or, better yet, keep the noobs from being confused by leaving the browse tab as it stands, but allow searches for ANY module in the search tab, with a set of checkboxes for each meta-class of module (Basic, T1, named, T2, faction, deadspace, officer, storyline) defaulting to those classes displayed in the Browse tab, similar to EveMon's item and ship browsers. MP --
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Omber Zombie maybe it's time to put up a wishlist for market improvements in the game that hopefully will be passed on to the devs for implementation (or at least get looked at) My personal wishlist is the following: * Shares listed in the wallet journal for transactions * In game stockmarket - similar to the current market, have corps check a box as to whether they are private or public, if public they get listed in the market after the next downtime. Shares become buyable/sellable through this interface. Will also allow for the nice graphs we get for how many shares are sold/bought as per the current market system. * Corporate dividend payout graphing - accessible as a new tab in the Corp Info that comes up when you do a show info on the corp in question. It might help the general public to see what corps to invest in. yes, i realize that doing the above would make EGSEx and RESX pretty much useless for anything but non-share bond sales, but it's about time that we got a decent market interface for what is a growing section of the market. so, anyone else want to add things to the list or point out my insanity? Just wanted to say, I fully agree with your wishlist. A real in-game stock market has always been my preference. But, as it doesn't exist, I started RESX. I believe an in-game stock market isn't viable for CCP to create in the short term. Therefore, my wishlist, more or less in order of preference: Share transfer log (same as Omber Zombie's) Access to said transfer log via the EVE API Ability to transfer isk and shares via the EVE API ________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog Feature request: Share transfer log
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:57:00 - [6] I've put a link to this thread in the forum where it might actually be taken notice of, here. I really hope they do make some improvements but I'm not holding my breath..
Sofitia Mourtos GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:38:00 - [7] In trying to lobby for things I always count one rule: people are lazy.. If we really want those changes then I think we would help ourself a lot - if we did a lot of the legwork ourself.. I am thinking of stuff like the following: - Preparing concept designs for the interface. - Describing the different use-cases we envision. - Preparing and document any formula's needed. - In general thing the entire thing though, what would work and what would not. This way we are making it more "easy" for CCP to build the thing since they can use our design-documents as a start (and if they are really lazy "just" do the implementation) the downside ofcourse is that its a pain to do all that work if it never gets implemented ;-) ---------------------------------------- WTB: Guardian BPO
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:45:00 - [8] Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos the downside ofcourse is that its a pain to do all that work if it never gets implemented ;-) CCP has shown themselves very willing to be swayed into action from good work presenting a strong case. I.e. Look at Khanid MK II. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos the downside ofcourse is that its a pain to do all that work if it never gets implemented ;-) CCP has shown themselves very willing to be swayed into action from good work presenting a strong case. I.e. Look at Khanid MK II. is there pew pew involved with a khanid mk ii? what pew pew is involved in the market?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd what pew pew is involved in the market? A lot. Enough so CCP hired an economist. (That's cash.) It's A GIRL!!!!!

Nicole Maher	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:57:00 - [11] Quickbar folders is the number one priority for me and easiest to implement I suspect. It would also reduce the amount of searches made to the database for items hits (if that is done server side). All your ore and ice are belong to us. :) --- freighter for hire, evemail me.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Omber Zombie * In game stockmarket - similar to the current market, have corps check a box as to whether they are private or public, if public they get listed in the market after the next downtime. Shares become buyable/sellable through this interface. Will also allow for the nice graphs we get for how many shares are sold/bought as per the current market system. Great idea, but I don't think that the market screen is the place to put this. I would recommended adding it as a tab on the corp show info window. There would become too many corps to browse a list of shares in the market window. Since you would need to seach for the corp you want to trade in by name/ticker, you might as well use the existing corp search tools, and just add a tab to the corp show info window that has the basic funtionality of the market to place buy and sell orders for that corp's stocks. Optionally a financial history view tab could be added to show trade prices and volumes, along with dividends paid out. Just by adding these function we would automaticly get trades to show up as a transaction in the wallet, as each transaction would need to have an ISK side to the exchange that would need to be logged. There would be no need to set corps as public vs private. With private corps there would simply be no shares available for sale. Another feature that could be implimented in connection with this or done seperately, is the ability to include shares in item exchange/auction contracts. This would allow flexibility when making direct exchanges for prices outside of the margins allowed on the stock market, as the stock market should follow the same rules as the items market regarding the matching of buy and sell orders. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:38:00 - [13] Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos In trying to lobby for things I always count one rule: people are lazy.. If we really want those changes then I think we would help ourself a lot - if we did a lot of the legwork ourself.. I am thinking of stuff like the following: - Preparing concept designs for the interface. - Describing the different use-cases we envision. - Preparing and document any formula's needed. - In general thing the entire thing though, what would work and what would not. This way we are making it more "easy" for CCP to build the thing since they can use our design-documents as a start (and if they are really lazy "just" do the implementation) the downside ofcourse is that its a pain to do all that work if it never gets implemented ;-) haha, you read my mind, this was mainly a first step to try and figure out a list of things to work from - no point doing legwork for things that majority of people don't want. ---------------------- sig out of order, returning soon FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd what pew pew is involved in the market? A lot. Enough so CCP hired an economist. (That's cash.) Though you could argue this was done to get the game good press and to get the game listed in scholarly journals if he writes up some papers. We've seen very little evidence that he will be a dev instead of just a reporter. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.29 19:00:00 - [15] well shar, you kinda said it yourself, that the economist wasn't going to be the market messiah everyone was wishing he/she/it would be. i took the man for his word, in his first post. but, if he's part-time at it, he'll never understand eve enough to even try to make any changes. if he's full-time at it, he's sure taking his sweet assed time doing anything. although ZZZ is doing it's part to bring pew-pew to the market. well, at least they've been war dec'd twice recently and will probably clean house a second time against the mercs. PCI was war dec'd by repo industries for like a week or two, early in the year; but um, repo seemed to just camp jita or something; so we never saw much anything. but, unless we see a whole lot more pew pew; don't count on anything changing.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Shadarle Quickbar folders Ability to save contract search parameters into a quickbar for the contract window The ability to change the parameters in market graphs Of these three, I'll add our desire to either reapply a portion of the broker fees when an order is updated along with a possible longer minimum interval between being able to modify the order (canceling will still be 5 minutes). With market graphs, I would like auto trimming of data to chop of extreme orders which annoyingly break the graphs a lot probably in the 5-95% range. But yes, proper graphing tools for all users would be nice. Besides all that, an extra warning box for placing orders which are unusual such as buying well beyond x% of lowest sell order and selling below x% of the regional highest buy order since many players make the mistake of not checking the zeros or like me pressing the wrong button occasionally which sells your new stock of shiny new ships for 1/3 of the price! As ever, no promises and nothing stated here is set in stone, but will keep a list of ideas to look at in the future.

Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:45:00 - [17] Edited by: Shadarle on 29/10/2007 21:45:35 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Shadarle Quickbar folders Ability to save contract search parameters into a quickbar for the contract window The ability to change the parameters in market graphs Of these three, I'll add our desire to either reapply a portion of the broker fees when an order is updated along with a possible longer minimum interval between being able to modify the order (canceling will still be 5 minutes). With market graphs, I would like auto trimming of data to chop of extreme orders which annoyingly break the graphs a lot probably in the 5-95% range. But yes, proper graphing tools for all users would be nice. Besides all that, an extra warning box for placing orders which are unusual such as buying well beyond x% of lowest sell order and selling below x% of the regional highest buy order since many players make the mistake of not checking the zeros or like me pressing the wrong button occasionally which sells your new stock of shiny new ships for 1/3 of the price! As ever, no promises and nothing stated here is set in stone, but will keep a list of ideas to look at in the future. Thanks for the reply, nice to see some Dev goodness in the MD forum! Especially when it outlines several things I've wanted for quite a while as possibly coming in the future! Very interesting you're actually looking at the re-application of broker-fees and even more interesting that you may change the update period. I really like the idea of increasing the time beyond 5 minutes. I'd be happy with as long a time period as 30-60 minutes even, but even 10 minutes would be nice. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Zerodot Saleswench Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 29/10/2007 21:45:35 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Shadarle Quickbar folders Ability to save contract search parameters into a quickbar for the contract window The ability to change the parameters in market graphs Of these three, I'll add our desire to either reapply a portion of the broker fees when an order is updated along with a possible longer minimum interval between being able to modify the order (canceling will still be 5 minutes). With market graphs, I would like auto trimming of data to chop of extreme orders which annoyingly break the graphs a lot probably in the 5-95% range. But yes, proper graphing tools for all users would be nice. Besides all that, an extra warning box for placing orders which are unusual such as buying well beyond x% of lowest sell order and selling below x% of the regional highest buy order since many players make the mistake of not checking the zeros or like me pressing the wrong button occasionally which sells your new stock of shiny new ships for 1/3 of the price! As ever, no promises and nothing stated here is set in stone, but will keep a list of ideas to look at in the future. Thanks for the reply, nice to see some Dev goodness in the MD forum! Especially when it outlines several things I've wanted for quite a while as possibly coming in the future! Very interesting you're actually looking at the re-application of broker-fees and even more interesting that you may change the update period. I really like the idea of increasing the time beyond 5 minutes. I'd be happy with as long a time period as 30-60 minutes even, but even 10 minutes would be nice. The net effect would not be to decrease the price-sniping or the number of updates, but to cause experienced market players to split their orders even more finely than they already do. At a database level, you'd end up with far more "orders" rows in the database, but still selling the same number of goods, with the (possible benefit?) that each order row would be updated fewer times before it sold out. The effect on the markets would be to push out smaller/casual players who can't support hundreds of orders per character in order to compete with the "I-have-thirty-orders-per-item-so-a-30-minute-update-interval-doesn't-bother-me" seller. Reapplying broker fees at update will only exacerbate this, as the optimal strategy is then to place one-unit orders so that you only need to update the minimum number of units in order to always have the best-priced order. If you want cheap, practical fixes that are easy to implement and don't breakz0rz the mark3tz, look to the UI changes, like: Indicating orders which belong to you on Market Details tab. Right-click update/cancel on orders that belong to you in Details tab. Accountant role allowing you to modify Corporation orders (using order-placer's Accounting, Margin, etc. skills, for simplicity's sake and to prevent exploits). Resurrection of the market interface as a standardized, high-information-flow way to trade unusual (faction, deadspace, COSMOS, etc.) items. Price history table and graph rework, ideally with more controls (discount (x) standard deviations, compute as 3-day rolling average, etc.), or at the very least, some documentation. A checkbox to disable auto-update of the details tab as orders change. Or, of course, the many other excellent suggestions (some of which I have no doubt unwittingly copied above) in other posts in this thread and elsewhere. MP --
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:30:00 - [19] A major change that I forgot to include above would be: Remove the market refresh after updating 2 orders or at least allow players to turn the updating off in the options if we choose to. Let us update the market window ourselves... or at the very least change the update interval to over a minute per update, instead of constantly as it does now. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Mike'P	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:13:00 - [20] Here's my list based on a very simplistic approach to trading.... however, these should be easy to fix... - modifying orders, when you click on the ISK field, the commas disappear - ie, what you click is not what you get. I'd suggest keeping the commas in. - api access to the amount of money you have in escrow (this shows on the orders page) - colour coding of orders so you can see those where you are 'not the best price'.. Yeah, yeah, I know that you want human beings to make this decision, but that's step 2, where market bids have a low price and a high price, rather than a single price. Then it colour codes depending on how 'hot' your price is. So there you go. YMMV.

Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:39:00 - [21] Quote: Of these three, I'll add our desire to either reapply a portion of the broker fees when an order is updated along with a possible longer minimum interval between being able to modify the order (canceling will still be 5 minutes). <3! Think I'm gonna cry! Looking through the proposed ideas, I can't think of much straight off the bat. Improve Market Competition!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.30 01:08:00 - [22] Here's a few more specific requests off the top of my head: A drop down box for the Corporate Account Selection, instead of having to change your wallet. A market details button in the modify order window like the magnifying glass in the new order window *Move the Corp Orders tab to the wallet where it should be <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.10.30 05:13:00 - [23] Quote: These aren't improvements, they're buffs. Semantics, but still. Fixed it for you ;) Improve Market Competition!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.30 05:50:00 - [24] Edited by: Dr Slurm on 30/10/2007 05:50:10 Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: These aren't improvements, they're nerfs. Semantics, but still. Fixed it for you ;) No, they are not. Buffs improve game play for the player. These changes do not do that. They make the game harder to play and feasibly cost more to trade. They are not buffs, they are nerfs. If they are put into effect exactly what MP said will happen will happen. I realized a while ago through the discussion in avery long thread that there is no fix to .01 ISK bidding. None. It exists because Eve is a free market. No amount of nerfing is going to change that. Fixes like that are not a solution to the problem, merely the symptom. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.30 06:07:00 - [25] Originally by: Dr Slurm No, they are not. Buffs improve game play for the player. If these go through people will have to spend less time updating orders because they will be forced to spend less time updating orders. Thus they will be able to spend more time doing other things and won't be forced to babysit every order in a 5 minute window. It's a buff imo. Originally by: Dr Slurm These changes do not do that. They make the game harder to play To me these changes make the game easier as they require you to update less often. Originally by: Dr Slurm If they are put into effect exactly what MP said will happen will happen. Actually, it won't. I could go through all the reasons it won't... but I really don't have the time right now. If you really need reasons I will try to give them all tomorrow sometime, but you should take my word for it. It will all work out, people won't make billions of single orders as MP thinks. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.30 06:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Dr Slurm No, they are not. Buffs improve game play for the player. If these go through people will have to spend less time updating orders because they will be forced to spend less time updating orders. Thus they will be able to spend more time doing other things and won't be forced to babysit every order in a 5 minute window. It's a buff imo. No one is forced to update their orders, where as under the new proposed changes I would be forced NOT to update my orders. I'd rather have more freedom then less. Quote: Originally by: Dr Slurm These changes do not do that. They make the game harder to play To me these changes make the game easier as they require you to update less often. Not quite I'll just end up with more orders to update. Quote: Originally by: Dr Slurm If they are put into effect exactly what MP said will happen will happen. Actually, it won't. I could go through all the reasons it won't... but I really don't have the time right now. If you really need reasons I will try to give them all tomorrow sometime, but you should take my word for it. It will all work out, people won't make billions of single orders as MP thinks. This solution isn't addressing the problem, merely the symptom of the problem. I really don't care what you think, these changes don't solve the problem. They just make the game harder to play.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.30 06:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Dr Slurm I really don't care what you think, these changes don't solve the problem. They just make the game harder to play. Hey, I can throw that right back at you... lets see how useful you think it is! I really don't care what you think, these changes solve part of the problem. They make the game easier to play. Gee, wasn't that useful! Now can we resort to "Nuh uh!" and "Uh huh!"? How can people be forced to use more orders if they already use all their orders? By training up alts? I know I'm not going to bother changing the way I play one bit with these changes. The only thing it will do is give normal players an advantage over all the tweakers out there who adjust orders 24/7. I've always used up every order I had, when I had 14 orders they were all full and with 269 orders they are all full generally. Not filling up all your orders is a waste of your potential profits, even if they are low income orders. I fill up with the most profitable things I can and if I have leftover orders they are filled by things that will make a few extra isks. I would never waste 10 orders on a single item just to have 10 stacks of it. That would destroy potential profits and why? Just to avoid paying a tiny broker fee? Or so I could make myself a slave to managing my orders? Anything that allows us to not have to watch orders every 5 minutes is a good change. You're looking at this as a "I will not be able to keep up" but you're not envisioning how different trading will be with everyone under these new rules. People will all stop updating as much... so you won't have to either. It makes the whole thing much easier and less stressful. Better for casual players. The only people it hurts are people who spend their entire lives babysitting orders... and I have no sympathy for anyone doing that. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.30 06:50:00 - [28] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 30/10/2007 06:50:47 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Shadarle Quickbar folders Ability to save contract search parameters into a quickbar for the contract window The ability to change the parameters in market graphs Of these three, I'll add our desire to either reapply a portion of the broker fees when an order is updated along with a possible longer minimum interval between being able to modify the order (canceling will still be 5 minutes). With market graphs, I would like auto trimming of data to chop of extreme orders which annoyingly break the graphs a lot probably in the 5-95% range. But yes, proper graphing tools for all users would be nice. Besides all that, an extra warning box for placing orders which are unusual such as buying well beyond x% of lowest sell order and selling below x% of the regional highest buy order since many players make the mistake of not checking the zeros or like me pressing the wrong button occasionally which sells your new stock of shiny new ships for 1/3 of the price! As ever, no promises and nothing stated here is set in stone, but will keep a list of ideas to look at in the future. The market graphs are EXTREMELY useful, but they just arent very nice to look at. The period filter is broken anyways(At least for the history tab). But for love of god. Dont nerf our option to edit orders. People are STILL gonna do 0,01 overbids when they set up new orders. I trade in a mini-hub, which is fairly quiet. But sometimes i have to update my orders every 5 minut for + hour, and then everything is fine again. At least for me updating orders all the time isnt a problem. And i dont wanna get a penalty for giving competition. It will ruin SO MANY viable tactics REALLY easy. I dont wanna see that. My main annoyance is that you have to click the wallet tab to stop it from blinking, despite the fact that its already open. Give us more trading and manufacturing skills to increase our slots. The current amount is not enough. Also, ingame share market. Pretty please. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.30 06:55:00 - [29] Originally by: LaVista Vista I trade in a mini-hub, which is fairly quiet. But sometimes i have to update my orders every 5 minut for + hour, and then everything is fine again. Well, you won't have to do that after these changes, which is a good thing! Changing the duration on changes will hurt people who sit there monitoring all their orders all day. That is a given. That is a tiny tiny percentage. It helps everyone else. Helping 95-99% of the player base at the expense of 1% is a very easy choice to make. Heck it's probably closer to 99.99% that it will help. Even lots of big traders don't babysit orders, I know I don't. I gave that up a LONG time ago when I realized there were so many better ways to make money that didn't require more than 60 minutes/day. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.10.30 07:17:00 - [30] Quote: I realized a while ago through the discussion in avery long thread that there is no fix to .01 ISK bidding. None. Contrary to the fact, reapplying market fees would actually enhance 0.01 isk bidding provided it was done with a degree of skill, not the brainlessness that occurs with it these days. A lot of people seem to want to interpret greater fees as a fix for 0.01 isk bidding. As a big supporter of this idea, I'll gladly say it's not supposed to fix it. Main reason why I support the idea is to develop a greater range of market strategies which can be used, including 0.01 isk bidding. Rather than rehash an incredibly old want of mine, just read the topic linked in my name to get the idea, since this topic really shouldn't devolve into "0.01 isk bidding is bad vs 0.01 isk bidding is good" Improve Market Competition!



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