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Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:41:00 - [1] ok, so i am trying to relax off my other "forum fights" i am kinda carebear lately. i used the same mission running setups for ages, and they included cap boosters, which was a major drawback for me due my cargo and resupply, etc. so i changed my pve setups to us cap recharging and be able to run my reppers infinitely without worrying about boosters. it worked and it made me a happy bunny. now, like some might have read in other posts by me... i am getting a bit bored, so i think i have to go do some more pvp. and i chose the HURRICANE for it as my favourite ship. not saying it's the best, but my favourite. if i get killed too much i'll go back to cruisers. anyways... i am trying to find out if passive cap recharge is viable in pvp. maybe with a couple of NOS in case you get nossed, you can nos back. so, this is the "BETA VERSION" of my "passive cap recharging" hurricane setup. please notice that it just done "on paper" with EFT, it takes into account my current skills and EFT is telling me i get positive cap recharging with it (MWD and NOS off). also note that the hardeners can ofc be switched out. here i go. i accept suggestions, would love to keep the flaming down and just remember that my main concern is not having to use cap boosters if possible, and that the NOS are only a "backup" and not ment to keep my cap up under normal circumstances. oh, and almost forgot about the topic itself: if i don't change anything in this fit, except the hardeners, what kind of stuff could i kill? what targets should i seek for? HIGHS: 6* 220mm vulcan II 2* diminishing nos MEDS: 1* warp disruptor II 1* fleeting webber 1* YT8 MWD 1* cap recharger II LOWS: 1* armor rep II 3* n-type hardeners 2* beta reactor control capacitor power relays RIGS: 1* nanobot 2* ccc i didn't do any stacking penalty calculations, but EFT sais it works... fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:43:00 - [2] Originally by: Kayna Eelai ...what kind of stuff could i kill? Yourself and some cruisers
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:44:00 - [3] Originally by: Kayna Eelai ok, so i am trying to relax off my other "forum fights" i am kinda carebear lately. i used the same mission running setups for ages, and they included cap boosters, which was a major drawback for me due my cargo and resupply, etc. so i changed my pve setups to us cap recharging and be able to run my reppers infinitely without worrying about boosters. it worked and it made me a happy bunny. now, like some might have read in other posts by me... i am getting a bit bored, so i think i have to go do some more pvp. and i chose the HURRICANE for it as my favourite ship. not saying it's the best, but my favourite. if i get killed too much i'll go back to cruisers. anyways... i am trying to find out if passive cap recharge is viable in pvp. maybe with a couple of NOS in case you get nossed, you can nos back. so, this is the "BETA VERSION" of my "passive cap recharging" hurricane setup. please notice that it just done "on paper" with EFT, it takes into account my current skills and EFT is telling me i get positive cap recharging with it (MWD and NOS off). also note that the hardeners can ofc be switched out. here i go. i accept suggestions, would love to keep the flaming down and just remember that my main concern is not having to use cap boosters if possible, and that the NOS are only a "backup" and not ment to keep my cap up under normal circumstances. oh, and almost forgot about the topic itself: if i don't change anything in this fit, except the hardeners, what kind of stuff could i kill? what targets should i seek for? HIGHS: 6* 220mm vulcan II 2* diminishing nos MEDS: 1* warp disruptor II 1* fleeting webber 1* YT8 MWD 1* cap recharger II LOWS: 1* armor rep II 3* n-type hardeners 2* beta reactor control capacitor power relays RIGS: 1* nanobot 2* ccc i didn't do any stacking penalty calculations, but EFT sais it works... With that setup id say kill stuff you can kite or stuff you simply outdamage and outlast. Id seriously try to fit more short burst tank and gank on it and a cap booster.
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:47:00 - [4] need to know what kind of pvp. solo, small/med gang, fleet, ... but, for small runins, i think with just 1 med armor rep your not going to be able to repair much dmg so cap won't be the problem.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 30/10/2007 11:49:57 i would try to kill stuff 1v1 as i don't use launchers or gyros, i am gimping my DPS (btw forgot to mention that i will use 5*T2 small drones and 1 in reserve) so i pretend to outlast my enemies thx to the fact i can run my T2 medium repper infenitely coz of my cap recharge. and if he nos/neuts me i can double nos back. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer With that setup id say kill stuff you can kite or stuff you simply outdamage and outlast. yeah, but what would that be? other BCs? which ones? or just cruisers? Quote: Id seriously try to fit more short burst tank and gank on it and a cap booster. i've been dependand on cap boosters for so long now... i started to hate it. i have no fun with it :( passive cap recharging gimps my ship, yeah... but i prefer it that way, IF possible. the thing is, if i wanted a standard cookiecutter cap booster setup, i could have used one of the stickies :S fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:57:00 - [7] i have a different plan when fitting and that is to not 'fit' myself into a problem i have to solve. in this case cap. if have to fit a tank that needs a bunch of other mods to keep it running, that takes away from the dmg mods i could be using and thus make the fight shorter.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Lyria Skydancer With that setup id say kill stuff you can kite or stuff you simply outdamage and outlast. yeah, but what would that be? other BCs? which ones? or just cruisers? Quote: Id seriously try to fit more short burst tank and gank on it and a cap booster. i've been dependand on cap boosters for so long now... i started to hate it. i have no fun with it :( passive cap recharging gimps my ship, yeah... but i prefer it that way, IF possible. the thing is, if i wanted a standard cookiecutter cap booster setup, i could have used one of the stickies :S Well if you really dont want cap boosters etc, id fit a bit more gank on it and go for slow ships like amarr bcs or battleships that you think you could break the tank of. Or just nail cruisers with it i guess.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well if you really dont want cap boosters etc, id fit a bit more gank on it and go for slow ships like amarr bcs or battleships that you think you could break the tank of. Or just nail cruisers with it i guess. well i hoped that i could actually get into close range of a sniping BS and manage to kill it. except maybe raven, who's missile based. but i'd be happy enough if this fit can kill other BCs fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:11:00 - [10] Edited by: Ziena Amani on 30/10/2007 12:13:49 You'll have quite some problems trying to outlast opponent with 1 MAR, nearly every cruiser will overcome that.. but eventually will die due to lach of buffer. If you still want to fly without cap injector, you'd want either gank setup with shield extenders, or a plated one. Cap mods won't help you much if you die with like 50% cap left. To clarify a bit, the problem of your setup is that it's a cap-lasting one, but it won't be able neither to kill something quick, nor prolong combat, since your tank isn't good enough in its power.
Faye Valerii Caldari Exeunt Omnes	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:12:00 - [11] Those CCC rigs are awfully expensive tho ...
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Faye Valerii Those CCC rigs are awfully expensive tho ... my corp has a few industry chars with researched BPOs and they don't get too expensive when it comes to that. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Ziena Amani Edited by: Ziena Amani on 30/10/2007 12:13:49 You'll have quite some problems trying to outlast opponent with 1 MAR, nearly every cruiser will overcome that.. but eventually will die due to lach of buffer. If you still want to fly without cap injector, you'd want either gank setup with shield extenders, or a plated one. Cap mods won't help you much if you die with like 50% cap left. To clarify a bit, the problem of your setup is that it's a cap-lasting one, but it won't be able neither to kill something quick, nor prolong combat, since your tank isn't good enough in its power. well... i see your point, but i don't understand something: if i face a guy, more or less same age, let's say same ship... and he has some hardeners, a MAR II and more DPS than me... won't he run out of cap for his own repper before breaking my tank? my tank is running infinitely (and notice the armor rig for faster reping) while chewing though his armor. you're saying that even so, he'll kill me before he runs out of cap charges? and if i also double nos him (even if my cap wouldnt need it)? as said, i accept suggestions, but i know the cookiecutter setups in the sticky posts... i just wonder WHAT i could do with this post. and if some1 sais a cruiser or BC would break my tank... i wonder why he would break my tank and i would not break his... or is every pvp setup now using double repping? fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Ziena Amani Edited by: Ziena Amani on 30/10/2007 12:13:49 You'll have quite some problems trying to outlast opponent with 1 MAR, nearly every cruiser will overcome that.. but eventually will die due to lach of buffer. If you still want to fly without cap injector, you'd want either gank setup with shield extenders, or a plated one. Cap mods won't help you much if you die with like 50% cap left. To clarify a bit, the problem of your setup is that it's a cap-lasting one, but it won't be able neither to kill something quick, nor prolong combat, since your tank isn't good enough in its power. well... i see your point, but i don't understand something: if i face a guy, more or less same age, let's say same ship... and he has some hardeners, a MAR II and more DPS than me... won't he run out of cap for his own repper before breaking my tank? my tank is running infinitely (and notice the armor rig for faster reping) while chewing though his armor. you're saying that even so, he'll kill me before he runs out of cap charges? and if i also double nos him (even if my cap wouldnt need it)? as said, i accept suggestions, but i know the cookiecutter setups in the sticky posts... i just wonder WHAT i could do with this post. and if some1 sais a cruiser or BC would break my tank... i wonder why he would break my tank and i would not break his... or is every pvp setup now using double repping? He will kill you because he will outtank you and outdamage you for enough time with his cap booster going.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:27:00 - [15] ok, i tried this on EFT: same setup, but i removed one hardener for a second repper. if i run both reppers all the time AND the nossers, i would run out of cap after around 3 3/4 minutes. if i switch one repper off i would regain cap ofc. so, what would u think about that one? fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
William DeMeo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:32:00 - [16] Edited by: William DeMeo on 30/10/2007 12:33:15 Drop the cap recharger/cap power relays and fit another med rep and a DCU and a cap booster in the mids and you basically got the cookie cutter hurricane setup. Should be able to kill some stuff, warping in and trying it out is the only way to know for sure. EDIT: you could drop the DCU for a gyro for extra gank. Yarr
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:36:00 - [17] Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 30/10/2007 12:33:15 Drop the cap recharger/cap power relays and fit another med rep and a DCU and a cap booster in the mids and you basically got the cookie cutter hurricane setup. Should be able to kill some stuff, warping in and trying it out is the only way to know for sure. EDIT: you could drop the DCU for a gyro for extra gank. one of the reasons i don't want cap boosters is that i like to roam far into lowsec, maybe even 0.0 somedays... ALONE... and it's not easy to obtain and carry around the cap boosters there fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:37:00 - [18] Originally by: Kayna Eelai if i face a guy, more or less same age, let's say same ship... and he has some hardeners, a MAR II and more DPS than me... won't he run out of cap for his own repper before breaking my tank? my tank is running infinitely (and notice the armor rig for faster reping) while chewing though his armor. DPS usually tends to exceed tank, especially in the case, such as you describe. Let's be generous, and say you can tank 150 raw dps. Well, in cane you can expect to output AT LEAST 400 dps in such a toe-to-toe fight. So it's more about whos' buffer will fail first. If your opponent fits a plate, then he can not worry about capping out, his buffer will suffice to survive that fight against you. Actually I doubt he'll run out of cap too, even though he might need to resort to pulse-run his rep.
William DeMeo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:40:00 - [19] Edited by: William DeMeo on 30/10/2007 12:41:52 Cap boosters are available almost everywhere and they really are a must on almost every non-frig ship, relying on natural recharge is very risky, nos and neuts will really screw you up + your tank is alot weaker then it could've been. The pro's with cap boosters far outweighs the cons, try it and you'll learn to love it. Another EDIT: just realized you had fitted rigs, if you're gonna go with natural recharge you should really use an armor rep amount rig instead of the duration rig because when you decrease the rep duration you increase the cap need. Yarr
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Ziena Amani Originally by: Kayna Eelai if i face a guy, more or less same age, let's say same ship... and he has some hardeners, a MAR II and more DPS than me... won't he run out of cap for his own repper before breaking my tank? my tank is running infinitely (and notice the armor rig for faster reping) while chewing though his armor. DPS usually tends to exceed tank, especially in the case, such as you describe. Let's be generous, and say you can tank 150 raw dps. Well, in cane you can expect to output AT LEAST 400 dps in such a toe-to-toe fight. So it's more about whos' buffer will fail first. If your opponent fits a plate, then he can not worry about capping out, his buffer will suffice to survive that fight against you. Actually I doubt he'll run out of cap too, even though he might need to resort to pulse-run his rep. ok... so, what would i be able to kill with dual reppers running permanently? only cruisers? maybe other BCs? just T1 fitted ones? maybe even T2 fitted ones? fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
William DeMeo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Ziena Amani Originally by: Kayna Eelai if i face a guy, more or less same age, let's say same ship... and he has some hardeners, a MAR II and more DPS than me... won't he run out of cap for his own repper before breaking my tank? my tank is running infinitely (and notice the armor rig for faster reping) while chewing though his armor. DPS usually tends to exceed tank, especially in the case, such as you describe. Let's be generous, and say you can tank 150 raw dps. Well, in cane you can expect to output AT LEAST 400 dps in such a toe-to-toe fight. So it's more about whos' buffer will fail first. If your opponent fits a plate, then he can not worry about capping out, his buffer will suffice to survive that fight against you. Actually I doubt he'll run out of cap too, even though he might need to resort to pulse-run his rep. ok... so, what would i be able to kill with dual reppers running permanently? only cruisers? maybe other BCs? just T1 fitted ones? maybe even T2 fitted ones? it really depends on how the other BC is set up. But I'd say you won't have much issues fighting tier 1 BC's, it's the tier 2 ones that'll be a bit tricky. Try it or you'll never find out. Yarr
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:46:00 - [22] Originally by: William DeMeo Another EDIT: just realized you had fitted rigs, if you're gonna go with natural recharge you should really use an armor rep amount rig instead of the duration rig because when you decrease the rep duration you increase the cap need. in pve i use the rep amount ones... but in pvp the rep duration ones are better AND eft sais i still wont have cap problems (aka: infinitely running 1 medium repper who reps faster than without rigs AND a second repper for nearly 4 minutes) i'd really like some more opinions about the 2nd repper choice. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:49:00 - [23] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: William DeMeo Another EDIT: just realized you had fitted rigs, if you're gonna go with natural recharge you should really use an armor rep amount rig instead of the duration rig because when you decrease the rep duration you increase the cap need. in pve i use the rep amount ones... but in pvp the rep duration ones are better AND eft sais i still wont have cap problems (aka: infinitely running 1 medium repper who reps faster than without rigs AND a second repper for nearly 4 minutes) i'd really like some more opinions about the 2nd repper choice. 2nd repper choice is better then the initial, but youll have cap problems because EFT doesnt count in the "nos" nerf. This means youll most of the part be getting much less nos cap then EFT actually says.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:50:00 - [24] Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 30/10/2007 12:41:52 Cap boosters are available almost everywhere and they really are a must on almost every non-frig ship, relying on natural recharge is very risky, nos and neuts will really screw you up + your tank is alot weaker then it could've been. The pro's with cap boosters far outweighs the cons, try it and you'll learn to love it. about this... cap boosters cost 2500isk in populate areas... and can cost up to 50000isk in lowsec... a bit expensive imho. plus: i still might have to jump 2-3 jumps away to get em. neuts would not exactly screw me, thats why i have the nos fitted. if the enemy is out of cap he wont be neuting much. in order to nos some1 empty i'll be empty too, but once done, my passive cap recharge is much higher than his and even a pro with cap boosters loses time while recharging and sooner or later runs out of charges :S question is: will i survive long enough (with the dual repping option) to see that. it's a pity that this game is called a "sandbox game" where you're supposed to be able to do whatever u want... but if u want to be average to good at something, you have to go back to the cookiecutter builds. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2nd repper choice is better then the initial, but youll have cap problems because EFT doesnt count in the "nos" nerf. This means youll most of the part be getting much less nos cap then EFT actually says. well, i tried out nossing lately and compared with EFT... and it's pretty accurate if you consider certain things like: 1) your passive cap recharge rate is at it's highest peak around 33% cap 2) don't use nos until you're under that, at for example 20% cap left. so, if i run dual reppers, i'll run out of cap faster, will be able to use nos faster (which will hurt the enemy too, not only help my own cap) and if i go too high up again i turn of nos and wait till my cap is 20% again. so, you think my setup could work with dual reppers? fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
William DeMeo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:53:00 - [26] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 30/10/2007 12:41:52 Cap boosters are available almost everywhere and they really are a must on almost every non-frig ship, relying on natural recharge is very risky, nos and neuts will really screw you up + your tank is alot weaker then it could've been. The pro's with cap boosters far outweighs the cons, try it and you'll learn to love it. about this... cap boosters cost 2500isk in populate areas... and can cost up to 50000isk in lowsec... a bit expensive imho. plus: i still might have to jump 2-3 jumps away to get em. neuts would not exactly screw me, thats why i have the nos fitted. if the enemy is out of cap he wont be neuting much. in order to nos some1 empty i'll be empty too, but once done, my passive cap recharge is much higher than his and even a pro with cap boosters loses time while recharging and sooner or later runs out of charges :S question is: will i survive long enough (with the dual repping option) to see that. it's a pity that this game is called a "sandbox game" where you're supposed to be able to do whatever u want... but if u want to be average to good at something, you have to go back to the cookiecutter builds. They are cookie cutter builds because they are good. The 220 dual rep setup isn't the best hurricane setup by far in my opinion either, but it's usually a safe bet and a decent enough setup. That's why it's used, because it is good. But if you wanna use cap rechargers thats fine. It's your ship. Yarr
Alowishus Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:23:00 - [27] Ditch the cap recharger for a cap booster and then use damage mods in place of the cap power relays. That's what I'd do. As for comments about cookie cutter setups, you're both right and wrong. Cookie cutter setups may be good but they're misleading because noobs think they are good at everything. Then they die. Then they blame balance/nerfs/whatever. When you're making a setup, or borrowing one, keep in mind the limitations. What can it do well? Where else might it work? Where will it fail? A "good all around" setup usually is not. It's usually a mediocre all around setup, and most setups fall in this category. But that doesn't mean the setup won't be great at something. /Michael Brady off
Nid Hoggur Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:47:00 - [28] This is what i use, and like very much. HIGHS: 6x 220mm vulcan II 2x Medium neutralizers MEDS: 1x YT8 MWD 1x Warp disruptor II 1x Web 1x Medium Cap booster (with 800's) LOWS: 2x Medium armor rep II 3x Active hardeners (kin,therm,expl) 1x Damage Control II RIGS: 1x Expl resist rig 1x Projectile RoF rig 1* dunno :) (nano pump, ccc?) DRONES: 3x small T2 drones 3x small ECM's
Satura Caldari Mucho Dolor The Insomniacs	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Satura on 30/10/2007 15:03:00 Originally by: Kayna Eelai Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 30/10/2007 11:49:57 i would try to kill stuff 1v1 as i don't use launchers or gyros, i am gimping my DPS (btw forgot to mention that i will use 5T2 small drones and 1 in reserve) so i pretend to outlast my enemies thx to the fact i can run my T2 medium repper infenitely coz of my cap recharge. and if he nos/neuts me i can double nos back. Don't think you can outlast many ships with that setup. Not enough gank, neither tank to be really effective. Add some heavy launchers at least, and loose the nos. Try one eanm or dcu and one gyro instead of the CPRs. Think that almost everything will chew through that tank. Heh, i'd scrap all cap regen modules and get one injector. And dual rep tank ftw. There is no shame in using one:) With 220s and 2xheavy launchers you can fit everything you want on the hurricane. Quote:* same setup, but i removed one hardener for a second repper. if i run both reppers all the time AND the nossers, i would run out of cap after around 3 3/4 minutes. if i switch one repper off i would regain cap ofc. Removing one hardener makes it even easyer for people to break the tank. Dual reps mean nothing without at least decent resists all around.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:03:00 - [30] well, i don't understand much about DPS in this game much (for example, if you say you do 500dps i don't know if thats much or not) and i don't know how to see how much "dps" my fit could tank (there are a few numbers in EFT i don't quite understand yet)... so, a dual repping hurricane with 60% in all resistances... how much dps would he be able to tank? and... what other ships, battlecruiser or lower, could deal more than that? i just can't believe when people say that it's so easy to break a dual repping tank, i mean... if all the game is just about who deals more PEW PEW fastest... and no tank can avoid to be killed... why do we have reppers in first place if the only thing they do is to delay your death, not avoid it. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)

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