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[Proposal] Manual Flight/Combat Control

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Wrath IX The Risen corp NEM3SIS. 8	Posted - 2012.01.26 23:48:00 - [1] - Quote I wish to discuss a possible course of action to be taken by CCP in order to revitalize and reinvigorate this game we love called EVE. For those of you who have not realized it yet, EVE is on the verge of a crisis due to its decreasing player base. This is evident both in a study of historical players in the world. (Down roughly 15-20% at peak time from this time last year) and you can see that CCP themselves have recognized this by the ever growing time frame of free trial period which went from 14 days a year ago to now 2 months at the time of this posting. Now I personally do not want to see this game wither away from under us but it is clear that something needs to be done to reenergize the game. I wish to discuss the concept of Manual/Tactical Ship control and combat as a viable solution. What I mean by this is not just simply allowing players to use things like standard A,S,W,D controls to maneuver their ships. Instead I mean things like limited firing arcs for weapons, weapon collision with non-target objects. This means that players would need to maneuver their ships not only to optimal range but also optimal position to bring as many guns as possible to bear on their target. Fleets would utilize tactics such as formations to obscure critical ships such as Logistics ships from direct attack. Frigate pilots would be forced to engage in pitched dog fights with one another and so on up the line as ships would have to jockey and out maneuver one another. There are several ProGÇÖs and one really Big Con to this idea Pro: 1) This New aspect of combat would make the battles much more in your face adrenaline pumping experiences and add a massive new depth in terms in in battle tactics and strategies. 2) Because of this the game becomes more accessible to new players because manual flight control means player skill is just as important as character skill in combat. This gives newer players a fighting chance against older players. Con: 1)This is a rather big CON associated with this idea on CCPGÇÖs side of the equation, which is that it would be a lot of work for them to do to make it happen. Because this aspect of manual control of flight with things like having to worry about hitting intervening objects would fundamentally change the very nature of all combat in the game. This means every ship capable of mounting weapons, and all pirate, mission, and other AIGÇÖs would need to be rebuilt or redesigned to take this change into account and maintain balance. So it would not be something that could be done quickly and would likely require a lot of work after the fact to work out any kinks in the system 2) Redesigning Ships and weapons and such would lead to possible issues with existing players ships especially those who logged off in space before such an update. This could lead to all kinds of complaints about lost module ship etc after such a patch. I know this is a tall order in what we could ask of CCP for improvement and I would like to see everyone get behind this, because really EVE can ill afford major hit to the player base like we had with Incarna.
mxzf Shovel Bros 391	Posted - 2012.01.27 00:24:00 - [2] - Quote No. If you would like a detailed reason why not, please look through any one of the similar threads in this and the F&I forum.
Drake Draconis Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans 284	Posted - 2012.01.27 00:30:00 - [3] - Quote Your first mistake is treating eve like a First Person Shooter...this is not a game that can be played with ASWD controls. This is a 3D Space smiulation...not 2d. While your prespective may be 3D...your talking about controls that are overlooking things such as Yaw/Pitch/Rotation and other various things. While it would be cool to have such controls...those controls would only be valid for ships smaller than a Cruiser. Even then in the RP Since..a Frigate is not a fighter...its a good sized ship to be sure... Secondly...as you poitned out...the complexity in such a design would be daunting...problem is thats a gross understatement. Try years of development. Dare I say...rewrite of code at that point. CCP wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole...I myself would love that concept...but as I approach the threshold of capital life...aint gonna happen...and would be very boring at best. CCP needs to get back to grass roots and start putting some spit and polish into features already in the game...not make new ones. We have plenty of new stuff...lets fix the old stuff first. Not Supporting.
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 989	Posted - 2012.01.27 16:07:00 - [4] - Quote This has been proposed before. There are plenty of people that want the option. Myself included. It won't happen anytime soon though. Likely won't ever happen. Has something to do with the way the EvE client manages input and whatever. I think CCP could do it but just don't want to. Either way...I support the idea and wish it would happen but it just won't happen. As for the gloom and doom of EvE failing...doubtful. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
Mars Theran EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance 102	Posted - 2012.01.28 08:47:00 - [5] - Quote Drake Draconis wrote: ..snip.. This is a 3D Space smiulation...not 2d. ..snip.. 1942 is 2D Starcraft is 2D Command and Conquer is 2D Most modern combat sims are 3D X3 is 3D Dust 514 is 3D What part of the concept of dimensionalism do you people not understand? Whatever the case, it's a moot point as I think the Dev's realize that allowing flight control in EVE would cause a whole bunch of chaos. I'm fully aware of it, so why wouldn't they be? But let's just say, if you are going to argue, try to at least make your argument valid, and supply some legitimate reason why it wouldn't work. Something like this: First Person Piloting would give too much advantage to the people who were adept at that sort of thing. For example: It would be much easier for them to use the game mechanics to reduce damage from incoming fire and increase their chances of hitting the target for high dps due to much greater control afforded them. For this reason, it would offer them an unfair advantage in PvP scenarios, when up against spreadsheet pilots who can't function well in that environment. TIIP: The Incredible Invisible Poster
Shobon Welp Band of Brothers 8	Posted - 2012.01.28 09:39:00 - [6] - Quote You may as well write a new game from step one for the amount of work this would need.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors 325	Posted - 2012.01.28 22:24:00 - [7] - Quote The server "ticks" at 1hz... meaning that it only accepts [any new series of] new commands once per second. This is what allows large fleets to be on the same grid, at the same time. Introducing WASD/FPS type controls the way you envision them requires a MUCH faster "tick" rate... which forces the server to make more calculations per ship... which slows things down significantly. Besides... the smallest ships in the game that you can pilot are not "fighters"... they are Boeing 747 sized ships with weapons that fire man sized shells. Said weapons also auto-track... which makes precision manual flight a bit moot. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Mars Theran EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance 103	Posted - 2012.01.29 01:32:00 - [8] - Quote Assuming something like this was ever seriously considered by CCP, I think it would be most easily implemented to function with the current mechanics. Basically, you on the client would get to fly around willy nilly as you wished, but you would still only send trajectory/vector information to the server once per second. Effectively, the server would receive a once per tick direction change the same as if you just kep double-clicking in space. The rest would be done client side. Everyone else in game would see you change directions, pitch, velocity, etc.. just as if you were doing it through the current double click, set velocity interface. Server side, there would be no difference and load wouldn't change all that much; in fact, if you consider people spamming buttons 10s of times every second, it wouldn't change at all. It would be more graphics intensive on the client in most cases of course, but overall not that bad; you still have to account for slow maneuverability resulting from time dilation and larger ships. Some would be almost entirely intolerable to fly this way, and even a frigate might seem so when time dilation is in effect. The tough part of all this, is actually modifying the client UI for those optional features that would be required to make this happen and change the PoV for those players who would use it. Granted, you could make it very basic initially, just to try it out, and employ a 3rd person view, (just above the ship ad behind it), with those controls, and later option to 1st person if that seemed workable and well-liked. Only other requirement would be a UI button which you could use to jump back and forth between the two perspectives. EVE isn't really a game where you can only play from a 1st person perspective, as much of the space flight and Intel is garnered from that distant perspective that allows you to see everything. Not having access to that would be seriously detrimental in most cases. It wouldn't matter as much as you might think, if there was some form of Radar available, but it would still matter. TIIP: The Incredible Invisible Poster
Wrath IX The Risen corp NEM3SIS. 10	Posted - 2012.02.01 06:19:00 - [9] - Quote Ok first things First The idea is any form of manual ship control that has a Tactical Impact. Now the WASD thing was an example that was put there as something that most people would be able to comprehend. so lets try a different approach since people seem to have trouble seperating the inherent implication of first person twitch play versus what I am actually talking about which is Tactical movement control So lets go with a better example of what I am talking about though some people may not have played the game that I am drawing the example from. There was a series of games under the title of "Homeworld" This game featured a movement command system that worked well for the existing conditions such as the server tick someone mentioned and would allow quick tactical commands that fell in line even with things like Time Dialation. But the game and the ships executed such commands at their own speed. Eve Already contains a tactical overlay system, so it is not such a be stretch to have them enhance it with a system for issuing manual movement commands. This could even be implemented in a staggered manner. First offering the control element as a modification to the existing tactical overlay system Then later they could look at working out if it would be possible for objects and other ships intercept fire if it is blocking line of fire/effect between the target and attacker. and if they felt it would be beneficial they could later consider things like limited fire Arc and such. But that for me is more a whimsical thing. So, please get off the "First Person Flight Sim" wagon since that is not what I am talking about. And as far as such a system favoring one type of player over another or giving some kind of unfair advantage. I would like to hear your arguements on possible ways a system as I have just described could be abused or how it might grant said unfair advantage.
Lady Spank Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 1388	Posted - 2012.02.01 10:51:00 - [10] - Quote They should make pi like dwarf fortress too right? Pfffffffffft (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â)

Alticus C Bear University of Caille Gallente Federation 36	Posted - 2012.02.01 11:28:00 - [11] - Quote I normally dismiss these threads, in fact I canGÇÖt believe it has come back already I thought we just got rid of one. That said people talking about Homeworld and strategy games like C&C got me thinking. We have engine trails that in effect represent where we have just been, would it be possible to extend a line from the front of the ship representing its flight path, the line could be in proportion to the speed of the ship and if you had say three way points on the flight path that could be manipulated in 3D in a similar manner to the probe interface perhaps that may give a more tactical element. Again though, it could soak up a lot of dev time and change eve perhaps in a direction I am not so keen on I certainly do not support twitch gameplay.
Velicitia Open Designs 486	Posted - 2012.02.01 14:16:00 - [12] - Quote Trouble with comparing it to homeworld is that in homeworld, you gave the ships "basic" commands (go over there and shoot that). Once they got there and started shooting, the game took over and did all the work of ensuring the bad guys were in the firing arc of your ships (as ships had to be pointing the "right way" to line up the shots). IIRC, the only ships that had "trouble" with firing arcs were the interceptors/fighters and cruisers. Those ships (unless you put them in "sphere") always had to do fly-by runs (kinda like stealth bombers). Everything else got into range and pretty much stayed still (except Ion Cannon frigates, which had to track the whole damn ship to keep a bead on the enemy) ... unless you were doing tactical moves to get some of your fleet outside the firing arcs of the other fleet. Compare that to EVE, where all the ships have turrets and 100% coverage, fleet engagements don't need the tactical manoeuvring to get behind one of the bigger ships, where it doesn't have any gun coverage... so things can stay a lot more static.
J Kunjeh 359	Posted - 2012.02.02 14:05:00 - [13] - Quote Mars Theran wrote: First Person Piloting would give too much advantage to the people who were adept at that sort of thing. For example: It would be much easier for them to use the game mechanics to reduce damage from incoming fire and increase their chances of hitting the target for high dps due to much greater control afforded them. For this reason, it would offer them an unfair advantage in PvP scenarios, when up against spreadsheet pilots who can't function well in that environment. Wow, I've seen plenty of arguments against this idea in my time in Eve, but that one takes the stupid cake by a fair margin. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á
FloppieTheBanjoClown Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 810	Posted - 2012.02.02 21:46:00 - [14] - Quote Mars Theran wrote: First Person Piloting would give too much advantage to the people who were adept at that sort of thing. For example: It would be much easier for them to use the game mechanics to reduce damage from incoming fire and increase their chances of hitting the target for high dps due to much greater control afforded them. For this reason, it would offer them an unfair advantage in PvP scenarios, when up against spreadsheet pilots who can't function well in that environment. You might as well advocate for everyone to have artificial lag to account for some people having poor connections, and random deductions from our wallets to make the playing field level for those stupid enough to fall for scams. And masks for the pretty avatars. Direct control isn't practical because of the scale of the game, as has been discussed. 1,000 pilots trying to fly stick at the same time would result in a huge lagfest. I would enjoy flying an interceptor through fleet battles and ice fields and other such places...but it's not going to happen.
Dario Welling IX Legio Hispana Aquila Viking Empire 3	Posted - 2012.02.03 11:12:00 - [15] - Quote Sorry but i think a thousand players posted Threads like this one... and the answer the every thread was No. No because a capsuleer is controlling the whole ship - not only the engine... and No because this would change the entire gameplay, what would you tell ppl who have 2 or 3 or maybe up to 6 accounts? How should they handle this? and i say a third time No, because i personally don't like the idea of manually flying.
Rocky Deadshot In The Goo EVE Trade Alliance 79	Posted - 2012.02.03 12:15:00 - [16] - Quote There is a game you might like, if you like this idea, called Evochron Mercenary.
Marlona Sky EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis 413	Posted - 2012.02.04 06:17:00 - [17] - Quote Hell no! Flight of a Thousand Rifters: A Player Event
Smiling Menace Star Nebulae Holdings Inc. 121	Posted - 2012.02.07 03:21:00 - [18] - Quote If I, or anyone else for that matter, wanted to play Black Prophecy I would've downloaded that instead of EVE. I never understand why people want to remake EVE into something it's not. It's most definitely not a FPS and I think everyone would like to keep it that way. Not supported.
Aversun Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity 2	Posted - 2012.02.09 16:42:00 - [19] - Quote a homeworld 2 move system wouldn't be bad, but a wasd based system with eve's current collision envelopes being the size of small moons, erm, no. even some sort of improvement to the existing double click move would be good, especially for those of us who get stuck on space things
Akirei Scytale Test Alliance Please Ignore 629	Posted - 2012.02.09 22:00:00 - [20] - Quote Incompatible with game mechanics, fundamentally flawed for balance purposes. I can tell you don't have a practical mind, or much knowledge about how computers work / games are designed.

Imigo Montoya Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 31	Posted - 2012.02.09 23:47:00 - [21] - Quote One huge con that most people seem to miss out when suggesting manual flight control (there are SOOOO many), is that it would require a complete change in the fundamental networking architecture of the game. EVE is made to handle the key requirements of a single shard MMO, which include: Large numbers of players can gather in one place Players come from all around the world (it takes much longer for their packets to reach the server and vice versa) The implications are that network traffic between clients and the server need to be minimised (both in terms of packet size and how often they are sent back and forward), and there is an exponential increase in network requirements with each client in the same area (one new client doesn't just add one more lot of data to be sent out, it needs updates about its state changing being sent out to all other clients). Manual control which would not only make yaw/pitch/roll (facing/orientation) manually changeable, but also significant to gameplay, would require significant amounts of data to be sent over the network and would also require that data to be sent a lot more often. There are neat tricks that the network ~~magicians~~ programmers can do, but the fundamental technical design considerations are still there. Homeworld is not an MMO, and therefore doesn't have the same design constraints so the comparison has no value.
Sephiroth CloneIIV Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK 53	Posted - 2012.02.10 20:45:00 - [22] - Quote Being that ships in eve have turrets, the only way first person freeform controls or gunning would work is if you could have multiple people commanding different parts of the same ship. In the case of carriers, you would need people being able to command fighters. But I would say it could add allot to the game, if it were possible. Eve has many good features and this could enhance it, black prophocy is a example of a game that has that one feature, but lacks many of the dynamics of eve (player driven content, supreme market, and destructible ships add a wonder to the game that drive it forward). So it would be great that eve could steal that one idea that makes black propocy interesting, and take it themselves. One thought to give players some kind of ship for dogfighting, is to have frigs be able to do it. They may be large compared to earth based fighters but still could be relatively maneuverable. They need to be large considering they are self sufficent vessels that can travel in space long distance. Have non-turreted weapons for them. (small chasis and manuverable they have one disadvantage). If the lag issue exists then that kills the idea, but still what if it wasn't a issue. Though... this idea would drastically limit the size of fleets, if you had to have 9 people for every battleship. That unless from one gun you could point it manually and all the other guns follow to aim at the same spot. In that case could you autopilot the ship and manually aim the guns? Personally I would say firing guns is a bit funner then being space barge captain trying to maneuver something that has no maneuverability. If free flight is allowed can the ship can still be auto-piloted like normal, or follow directions in fleet, fleet formations? Does this open up area damage on ships, attacking one area and direction does more damage then others. Also would this revamp the skill system. Would your shots hit because you aimed right, or because you motion tracking skill is high enough, how would that interact. How would targeting work, would that be gone seeing that you could just point and shoot, or would jamming remove crosshairs, give static? This could change the game.
Krios Ahzek GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 559	Posted - 2012.02.10 21:19:00 - [23] - Quote Manual flight would be a pain for anything that goes less than 1 km/s -áThough All Men Do Despise Us


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