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Bruce Lee & Chuck Norris vs Teh Blob!!!

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Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:02:00 - [1] /me dons fire proof vest & takes a deep breath.. Right here goes. Focused Fire; the fact that multiple ships can lock a singular target and vaporize it in a instant. It is, perhaps, one of the primary factors that encourages blob warfare. It probably discourages more people from pvp then any other single aspect of the game. It needs a fix: Bruce Lee & Chuck Norris vs the Blob. Ol Brucey & Chuck are up against it whith a horde of henchmen. While 200 bad guys try to kick in our heroes only a few can reach them (the guys at the front are in the way) and Bruce and Chuck deal with em piece meal. They of course prevail, but not in Eve they wont. In Eve Chuck gets called primary and all 200 bad guys at the same time deliver a swift kick to Chucks more vulnerable regions : Chucks down and Bruce is doomed. Its all about space isnt it? Space to get that blow in. So here is my solution to focused fire, while reading it try and think of a ships Sig Radius as the 'target' the available space to hit; A ships sig radius is the available surface area for a target lock. Once that surface area is consumed by a ships locking emissions futher attempts to 'hit' the target with a lock are obfuscated. How it works: A Frigate (Sensor Strength 9) attacking a Battle Cruiser (Sig Rad 265) Available 'targeting space' is = 'Sig Rad - Sensor Strength10'. In the example the Frigate 'consumes' 90 points of space leaving 175 points. For subsequent locks the BC is still considered to have a Sig Radius of 265. So, it can be locked by at least 3 Frigates (265/90) before any negative effects are applied and all of its targeting space is filled. Once the targeting space is used up futher locks are applied against the ships Sig Radis / 2: or in this example 265/2 = 132.5. (or another x2 Frigates) This 'half life' continously drops as more and more targets lock on to a ship dropping its targeting space. Now you can see that if a BS (radar strength 20 10 = 200) locks a Cruiser (Sig Radius 150) it immediately applies a half life to the Cruiser. The cruiser now has a Sig Radius of 75 for applying a lock. Now for combat this 'Half Life Sig Radius' applies only to locking times, not to your ability to actually hit a target with a weapon system. This mechanism means the more ships that have a lock on a target, and the greater their Sensor Strength is the longer subsequent locks take. Locking a BC with 40 BS is now going to take the 40th BS a very looong time indeed. To the point where it might aswell lock something else! Ok thats the idea. The quicker amongst you will have already spotted ramifications for High Sensor strength ships (Recons etc), and the effect upon modules like ECCM and target painters. Ill try and address those later. For now grab your napalm, load up that flame thrower and let loose! Or you could post constructivley . C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:35:00 - [2] actualy tahts a prety good idea --------------------------- Originally by: eddie valvetino little small voice in the back of my head i've ignored all summer now screams "BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!! MOTHER ******!!!!!!"
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:36:00 - [3] Originally by: Arvald actualy tahts a prety good idea You sound suprised? C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:38:00 - [4] So then everyone starts carrying target painters...?
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Arvald actualy tahts a prety good idea You sound suprised? C. i am because most other ideas like this are suggesting making it so that as soon as a certain number of ships are locked on no one else can even engage a lock on teh target, this will make it so that you can have as man pepoel as you want target him....it will jsut take a while --------------------------- Originally by: eddie valvetino little small voice in the back of my head i've ignored all summer now screams "BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!! MOTHER ******!!!!!!"
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Alz Shado So then everyone starts carrying target painters...? hey it will give minmatar e-war boats mreo usefullness --------------------------- Originally by: eddie valvetino little small voice in the back of my head i've ignored all summer now screams "BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!! MOTHER ******!!!!!!"
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Alz Shado So then everyone starts carrying target painters...? =win /signed.
Delichon Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:43:00 - [8] Edited by: Delichon on 01/11/2007 15:44:42 The sad truth of primary being one of the reasons for blobing is there. I think this mechanic calls for exploiting through targeting your own mates in order to "autodampen" everyone else. What could solve the "primary - melt" issue would be - friendly fire (so maneuvering on the field of battle would be more difficult in blobs and easier in small gangs) - different zones on the ship's model having different resists (so as blob would cripple the maneuvrability => blob has less DPS) This would open a new dimension in EVE combat, but both of these things would be insane in terms of code complexity and would result in severe lag even in 2 on 2 battles. :( So? sorry - nothing will be done on that, I am afraid.
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:44:00 - [9] Chuck Norris would combine his Dna with Bruce an crate Bruce Norris and take a flying round house kick and whipe out every thing in a 50 au radius with the share power of the kick. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Delichon Edited by: Delichon on 01/11/2007 15:44:42 edited by Cailais I think this mechanic calls for exploiting through targeting your own mates in order to "autodampen" everyone else. . Membership of a gang would counter an autodampen effect (i.e locking your buddy to drop his target area / sig radius). There's an issue with 'sub gangs' as part of a fleet I agree, or using alts: possibly overcome by looking at the total number of lockable targets a ships has. Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Alz Shado So then everyone starts carrying target painters...? hey it will give minmatar e-war boats mreo usefullness Yup. They're Target Painters after all Originally by: General StarScream Chuck Norris would combine his Dna with Bruce an crate Bruce Norris and take a flying round house kick and whipe out every thing in a 50 au radius with the share power of the kick. C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
Hana Lena Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:02:00 - [11] Meh sounds like a good idea needs some tweking but otherwise sound. ADHD + Dyslexia = BAD SPELLING Proud to be in the FNA and not be a alt! Meow Mix! Bacon! DOOM!
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:06:00 - [12] Discourage good FCing and target calling.. Erm, No. -
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:11:00 - [13] The 'Bruce & Chuck vs Blob' only works if the blob isn't carrying guns. When the blob has guns then everyone can fire at a safe distance and not have to take turns. So I say no.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Saint Luka Discourage good FCing and target calling.. Erm, No. Discourage target calling!?!?! Youd have to be a better FC as youd have to call on multiple targets for respective parts of your fleet. "Primary is Saint Luka" is not good FCing, difficult or even remotely skill intensive. C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:18:00 - [15] Originally by: NightF0x The 'Bruce & Chuck vs Blob' only works if the blob isn't carrying guns. When the blob has guns then everyone can fire at a safe distance and not have to take turns. So I say no. Youd rather have the lag & your ship disappear before you can so much as twitch the mouse? Well up to you I suppose, although I added Chuck and Bruce to make it a little more light hearted: you dont need to apply a 'real world' analogy. C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: NightF0x The 'Bruce & Chuck vs Blob' only works if the blob isn't carrying guns. When the blob has guns then everyone can fire at a safe distance and not have to take turns. So I say no. Youd rather have the lag & your ship disappear before you can so much as twitch the mouse? Well up to you I suppose, although I added Chuck and Bruce to make it a little more light hearted: you dont need to apply a 'real world' analogy. C. Wait a second...weren't you the one that used a "real world analogy" in your original post? Oh wait...yeah you did. I was merely going along with your reasoning. Eve isn't hand-to-hand combat, there are guns involved which require distance from a target thus ruling out your hand-to-hand combat theory. Try again, please.
Exuscon Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Cailais /me dons fire proof vest & takes a deep breath.. Right here goes. Focused Fire; the fact that multiple ships can lock a singular target and vaporize it in a instant. It is, perhaps, one of the primary factors that encourages blob warfare. It probably discourages more people from pvp then any other single aspect of the game. It needs a fix: Bruce Lee & Chuck Norris vs the Blob. Ol Brucey & Chuck are up against it whith a horde of henchmen. While 200 bad guys try to kick in our heroes only a few can reach them (the guys at the front are in the way) and Bruce and Chuck deal with em piece meal. They of course prevail, but not in Eve they wont. In Eve Chuck gets called primary and all 200 bad guys at the same time deliver a swift kick to Chucks more vulnerable regions : Chucks down and Bruce is doomed. Its all about space isnt it? Space to get that blow in. So here is my solution to focused fire, while reading it try and think of a ships Sig Radius as the 'target' the available space to hit; A ships sig radius is the available surface area for a target lock. Once that surface area is consumed by a ships locking emissions futher attempts to 'hit' the target with a lock are obfuscated. How it works: A Frigate (Sensor Strength 9) attacking a Battle Cruiser (Sig Rad 265) Available 'targeting space' is = 'Sig Rad - Sensor Strength10'. In the example the Frigate 'consumes' 90 points of space leaving 175 points. For subsequent locks the BC is still considered to have a Sig Radius of 265. So, it can be locked by at least 3 Frigates (265/90) before any negative effects are applied and all of its targeting space is filled. Once the targeting space is used up futher locks are applied against the ships Sig Radis / 2: or in this example 265/2 = 132.5. (or another x2 Frigates) This 'half life' continously drops as more and more targets lock on to a ship dropping its targeting space. Now you can see that if a BS (radar strength 20 10 = 200) locks a Cruiser (Sig Radius 150) it immediately applies a half life to the Cruiser. The cruiser now has a Sig Radius of 75 for applying a lock. Now for combat this 'Half Life Sig Radius' applies only to locking times, not to your ability to actually hit a target with a weapon system. This mechanism means the more ships that have a lock on a target, and the greater their Sensor Strength is the longer subsequent locks take. Locking a BC with 40 BS is now going to take the 40th BS a very looong time indeed. To the point where it might aswell lock something else! Ok thats the idea. The quicker amongst you will have already spotted ramifications for High Sensor strength ships (Recons etc), and the effect upon modules like ECCM and target painters. Ill try and address those later. For now grab your napalm, load up that flame thrower and let loose! Or you could post constructivley . C.
SirMoric	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:42:00 - [18] Originally by: CailaisBruce Lee & Chuck Norris vs the Blob.[/quote BLASPHEMY........
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:42:00 - [19] Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Cailais Originally by: NightF0x The 'Bruce & Chuck vs Blob' only works if the blob isn't carrying guns. When the blob has guns then everyone can fire at a safe distance and not have to take turns. So I say no. Youd rather have the lag & your ship disappear before you can so much as twitch the mouse? Well up to you I suppose, although I added Chuck and Bruce to make it a little more light hearted: you dont need to apply a 'real world' analogy. C. Wait a second...weren't you the one that used a "real world analogy" in your original post? Oh wait...yeah you did. I was merely going along with your reasoning. Eve isn't hand-to-hand combat, there are guns involved which require distance from a target thus ruling out your hand-to-hand combat theory. Try again, please. The analogy was used to assist you to picture the problem (i.e that multiple people can hit one target). Ok, it was a bad one: I apologise. Analogies aside - youre still back to the problem. (Lets say your in a fleet battle in a BC). It takes say 9 seconds for 1 BS to lock you under the current system. However In a fleet battle it also takes 9 seconds for 40 BS to lock you. 3 Seconds after that and youre toast. Thus focused fire leads to efficient blobs of ships: remove that efficiency and you reduce the need to blob. Its a partial solution (not the whole one) but I believe it will encourage more mixed fleets and more tactical choices to be made, both by the FC, his wing or squad commanders and the individual. C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
schurem Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:43:00 - [20] this post.. epic win. i support fully. too tired to make proper grammar. target painters called PWNAGE ftw :D However, I still think EvE needs more and better tactical warning sounds. <<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free* Or Die Trying* >>>>
NeoShocker Caldari Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:48:00 - [21] I fully support this idea, some needs tweaking. There should be a way to discourage big fleets. For awhile now, I was thinking another idea, like for example, if a gang reaches over 50 or so, overall gang bonus effectiveness decreases. But of course, that ruins the point of the 250 fleet gang mechanic. :s ----------------------------------- Peace through power!
Elvarien Caldari Legion of Corpses Federation Of united Corps	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:54:00 - [22] this here wins and I /sign this with full support. Sure there is the team locking issue that needs to be worked out indeed but asside from that this does 2 things.. Makes fc-ing a task only for those capable of proper multitasking. it makes a small tactical gang more powerfull then a blob it makes the minmatar racial ewar usefull. This is not the final solution by far but definitely the right direction anti blob solutions should take. >--- Witty banter.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:08:00 - [23] Gangless-Blobbing, Focus-Locking Defense. How about simply only allowing a set maximum amount of damage to be applied to a target based on a factor of it's sig radius. Boosts target painters nicely, forces fleets to divide between multiple targets, and reduces the number of battleships on the field. You could even make it a factor of weapon radius so that skills once again apply, with only so many weapons able to inflict damage but those with good skills inflicting more damage.
Phantom Slave Amarr Mozzaki United	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:38:00 - [24] Edited by: Phantom Slave on 01/11/2007 17:40:35 While I think the idea is good, implementing it would be very hard. Look at the abaddon. Sig Radius of 470, with a sensor strength of 22. Using your math, you would only be able to lock 2 BS's onto another BS. In a 50 x 50 fleet battle, of all BS against BS, the FC would be calling out 25 targets, which would just be rediculous. Even when using the 'Half Life' a third BS puts it into 'half life' and you would either have to call another Target, or deal with insane locking times. I don't mean to burst your bubble, because I think you're on to something, but the way you're going about it is wrong. edit Re-read what you said and made changes to my post accordingly. ____________________ Pirating in EVE is like kicking a squirrel and stealing his food. The squirrel hates you afterwards, but it's fun none the less.
Doomed Predator Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:49:00 - [25] Just make it use upo the targeting space when an aggresive action is done to the target,that should prevent friendlies to nerf your sig radious. All in all a good idea to build up from.
Unvisibility	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:53:00 - [26] This is a good idea. Which won't get implemented. Unfortunately. The one remaining forum mod currently has his hands full locking Goon thread spammage in CAOD and all the other CCP employees are busy at the Fanfest so this thread won't even get noticed, which is a shame. As for the whole "real life analogy" thing, it's pointless and irrelevant either way - very little in EVE makes any pretence at having justification outside of simply being required for game mechanics.
Baleur Miners In Barges Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.11.01 18:22:00 - [27] So basically you just want EVE to become a 1v1 game? Why not lock every player up in his own immunity sphere? And just add a simple Duel system? I know you gave this alot of tought, but i cant agree. Lots of hitters on 1 target is what every single game has, and its not an exploit nor a downside, its part of the rules. And it should be! What if we take an RTS game and apply your ruleset there, so no more than 3 tanks can attack a building at the same time. It makes no sense. And since this tactic applies to all games, it makes no sense here either. Why would a ship not be able to target properly because there is "no space left to target"? If you shoot 1 laser at the middle of a bullseye 5 meter thick titanium plate, it makes a dent. If you shoot 100 lasers at the middle of the bullseye 5 meter thick titanium plate, it makes a big hole. Why would you ever spread out that power over a wide area, hardly doing any damage? It makes no sense m8.. ------------------------- This post represents my entire alliance's views and opinions. Not.. ;(
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.01 18:32:00 - [28] Originally by: NightF0x The 'Bruce & Chuck vs Blob' only works if the blob isn't carrying guns. When the blob has guns then everyone can fire at a safe distance and not have to take turns. So I say no. If Chuck or Bruce is circled by the gang of 200 henchmen then you know there will be some collateral damage. There isn't any here. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.01 18:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Delichon Edited by: Delichon on 01/11/2007 15:44:42I think this mechanic calls for exploiting through targeting your own mates in order to "autodampen" everyone else. That's true. 2isk
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.01 18:37:00 - [30] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Delichon Edited by: Delichon on 01/11/2007 15:44:42 edited by Cailais I think this mechanic calls for exploiting through targeting your own mates in order to "autodampen" everyone else. . Membership of a gang would counter an autodampen effect (i.e locking your buddy to drop his target area / sig radius). There's an issue with 'sub gangs' as part of a fleet I agree, or using alts: possibly overcome by looking at the total number of lockable targets a ships has. A TCF Gang locks a Goon gang. A Goon gang locks a TCF gang. Invulnerables. 2isk

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