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So what sensor damp strength modules are we getting?

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Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:20:00 - [1] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 02/11/2007 16:32:02 Right so most battleships fit sensor boosters, so lets say we have a battleship with a 75km lock range and a pilot with level V targetting range with one sensor booster. Lets put it against an arazu with 1 rig and a pilot with level 4 sensor damp strength skill (53%). So two damps are applied to the battleship, it activates its sensor booster, it can now lock 50km, further than the scram range ability of a level V arazu pilot, therefore for a battleship with one sensor booster it requires a rigged, fully skilled arazu per battleship if you want to lock down for yourself. The battleship can still quite hapily lock at 26.3km with 3 damps on it. Why would I bring an arazu over another battleship? Or better yet lets bring a rook, not only can it lock down multiple opponents with Recon V, it is also DOUBLE effective versus tech II battleships. Plus it completely locks down a target. Think its not fair comparing a rook to an arazu? There is no point bringing a lachesis, since it takes 3 damps to lock down a target and any sane lachesis pilot will fit no more than 4 damps, its pointless to have a 4th. God forbid it meets another recon which all have 100km locking ranges or more. An arazu or lachesis are now INCAPABLE of locking down even a single recon ship. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Mundem Pashdale Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:04:00 - [2] The only hope is that 'Scrips' will somehow boost the effectiveness of damps in some way; with the current strength they're not realy worth fitting to the recons. I hope CCP has a plan
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:23:00 - [3] Originally by: Mundem Pashdale The only hope is that 'Scrips' will somehow boost the effectiveness of damps in some way; with the current strength they're not realy worth fitting to the recons. I hope CCP has a plan Even with the current scripts a damp on a damp ship more than counters a sensor booster. With perfect skills and rigs a gallente recon will have a damp strength (per damp) of -65.4%. That more than counters two sensor boosters and damps an unboosted BS under your scram range. _____ CPU Love
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:48:00 - [4] Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Mundem Pashdale The only hope is that 'Scrips' will somehow boost the effectiveness of damps in some way; with the current strength they're not realy worth fitting to the recons. I hope CCP has a plan Even with the current scripts a damp on a damp ship more than counters a sensor booster. With perfect skills and rigs a gallente recon will have a damp strength (per damp) of -65.4%. That more than counters two sensor boosters and damps an unboosted BS under your scram range. No with level IV skills and a rig your looking at 53% so more like 53% with max skills and 55 with a rig. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:49:00 - [5] Ill put it another way, fully bonused damps are like having the old tech II damps on an unbonused ship, with level II sensor damping and no locking time effect. In otherwords, ****. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Arana Tellen No with level IV skills and a rig your looking at 53% so more like 53% with max skills and 55 with a rig. Isn't it: .35 (base with range script) x 1.25 (ship skill) x 1.25 (damp skill) x 1.1 (damp rig) x 1.087 (2nd damp rig) ------- .654 (% targeting range reduction) _____ CPU Love
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:57:00 - [7] it has some locking time effect too. Dont sensor boosters also have scripts? For the sake of theorycrafting what would the lock range and time of a double boosted tech II megathron with the long range script be against 3x range damp scripted t2 arazu (max skills for both). An Arazu can stay out of a 26.3km lock range pretty easily. --
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:09:00 - [8] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 02/11/2007 18:09:44 Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Arana Tellen No with level IV skills and a rig your looking at 53% so more like 53% with max skills and 55 with a rig. Isn't it: .35 (base with range script) x 1.25 (ship skill) x 1.25 (damp skill) x 1.1 (damp rig) x 1.087 (2nd damp rig) ------- .654 (% targeting range reduction) I put a second rig on and get 56%. Sensor damp rigs are now 5%. I have the level IV sensor damp skill (bear in mind it takes as long as cruiser V to get up to level V. Its also 34% so its: .34 (base with range script) x 1.25 (ship skill) x 1.25 (damp skill) x 1.05 (damp rig) x 1.0435 (2nd damp rig) 58.2% 0.48 x1.25 x1.25 x1.1 x1.087 89.6% Sensor damps effectiveness has been quartered and now have NO locking time effect since the script removes it completely. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:13:00 - [9] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 02/11/2007 18:16:45 Edited by: Arana Tellen on 02/11/2007 18:15:49 Originally by: Draygo Korvan it has some locking time effect too. Dont sensor boosters also have scripts? For the sake of theorycrafting what would the lock range and time of a double boosted tech II megathron with the long range script be against 3x range damp scripted t2 arazu (max skills for both). An Arazu can stay out of a 26.3km lock range pretty easily. Actually it would be 36.2km, add this to the fact that it will have a MWD (and therefore outpace the arazu) and have no lock time hit Stacking Results: -58.400% with 1 damp -79.515% with 2 damps (damp 2 had an effective strength of -50.757%) -86.341% with 3 damps (damp 3 had an effective strength of -33.322%) -88.598% with 4 damps (damp 4 had an effective strength of -16.525%) -89.304% with 5 damps (damp 5 had an effective strength of -6.190%) -89.491% with 6 damps (damp 6 had an effective strength of -1.751%) (taken from damp program so slightly different, a bit more than you will get) So a ship that requires 4 months of training for just to make it even slightly viable and be outclassed by all its competitors. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:21:00 - [10] Yeah, this change looks to make the Lachesis & Arazu obsolete, and the related TD nerf also hits the already struggling Pilgrim & Curse hard. Maybe these ships need increased bonuses to their racial EW?
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Arana Tellen I put a second rig on and get 56%. Sensor damp rigs are now 5%. That blows. Down to 10 useful rigs now? Quote: I have the level IV sensor damp skill (bear in mind it takes as long as cruiser V to get up to level V. Not if you didn't read the char creation guide and went all int/mem :oops: You should argue balance assuming best skills, though. Quote: Its also 34% so its: .34 (base with range script) x 1.25 (ship skill) x 1.25 (damp skill) x 1.05 (damp rig) x 1.0435 (2nd damp rig) 58.2% 0.48 x1.25 x1.25 x1.1 x1.087 89.6% Sensor damps effectiveness has been quartered and now have NO locking time effect since the script removes it completely. Damps were made less stupidly overpowered. Even with the nerfed rigs it takes 2 range-scripted sensor boosters to counter a single range-scripted damp. It's still the most powerful ewar in eve. _____ CPU Love
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.03 01:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Arana Tellen I put a second rig on and get 56%. Sensor damp rigs are now 5%. That blows. Down to 10 useful rigs now? Quote: I have the level IV sensor damp skill (bear in mind it takes as long as cruiser V to get up to level V. Not if you didn't read the char creation guide and went all int/mem :oops: You should argue balance assuming best skills, though. Quote: Its also 34% so its: .34 (base with range script) x 1.25 (ship skill) x 1.25 (damp skill) x 1.05 (damp rig) x 1.0435 (2nd damp rig) 58.2% 0.48 x1.25 x1.25 x1.1 x1.087 89.6% Sensor damps effectiveness has been quartered and now have NO locking time effect since the script removes it completely. Damps were made less stupidly overpowered. Even with the nerfed rigs it takes 2 range-scripted sensor boosters to counter a single range-scripted damp. It's still the most powerful ewar in eve. It takes 1 sensor booster with hardly any skilling to match one fully tricked out with 2 rigs damp from a recon ship Plus its not like ECCM where people dont tend to fit the module. Pretty much every BS fits a sensor booster, maybe some fast close range ones dont, but they are going to outpace and kill you anyway. Basically damps are second class to ECM now again --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.11.03 03:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Arana Tellen I put a second rig on and get 56%. Sensor damp rigs are now 5%. That blows. Down to 10 useful rigs now? Quote: I have the level IV sensor damp skill (bear in mind it takes as long as cruiser V to get up to level V. Not if you didn't read the char creation guide and went all int/mem :oops: You should argue balance assuming best skills, though. Quote: Its also 34% so its: .34 (base with range script) x 1.25 (ship skill) x 1.25 (damp skill) x 1.05 (damp rig) x 1.0435 (2nd damp rig) 58.2% 0.48 x1.25 x1.25 x1.1 x1.087 89.6% Sensor damps effectiveness has been quartered and now have NO locking time effect since the script removes it completely. Damps were made less stupidly overpowered. Even with the nerfed rigs it takes 2 range-scripted sensor boosters to counter a single range-scripted damp. It's still the most powerful ewar in eve. It's like Caldari players get fed stupid pills straight out of training. One module from a Rook or Scorpion can shut down a ship 100%. Three damps from an Arazu can't even fully shut down a ship. It can still get within lock range if it has enough speed, and now with the massive damp nerfs, you're going to need a max skilled recon ship, rigs, and at least 3-4 damps per target just to be effective. That's an entire recon ship dedicated to removing one target from a fight. Compared to a Rook, which can remove 4-5 targets from a fight without even breathing hard. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 03:16:00 - [14] /me loves that the KOS guy does not seem to have a clue how bonuses to damp strength works.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.03 04:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Random Womble /me loves that the KOS guy does not seem to have a clue how bonuses to damp strength works. What are you on about, apply the numbers and it comes out right, thats usually how I do my maths. Do you like to add random numbers in or something? --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Samurai XII	Posted - 2007.11.03 04:23:00 - [16] Damps got nerfed? Good ______________________ Just another cool alt.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.03 04:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Samurai XII Damps got nerfed? Good ECM ships like the falcon, scorpion and blackbird got boosted, so before if you had a fast ship you could at least get close and get a lock, now you have no chance at all. Have fun guys. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz
Celedris Stimulus	Posted - 2007.11.03 05:15:00 - [18] Edited by: Celedris on 03/11/2007 05:25:33 Originally by: Arana Tellen Originally by: Random Womble /me loves that the KOS guy does not seem to have a clue how bonuses to damp strength works. What are you on about, apply the numbers and it comes out right, thats usually how I do my maths. Do you like to add random numbers in or something? Your math is actually wrong because your supposed to apply the skill/ship/rig bonus against the opponent's remaining targeting range after the base effect, you don't multiply the bonus to the module strength like ECM. There is no way to get -89% damps like you indicate (even with a max-skilled Eos pilot). Currently: 0.48 Base 0.52 remaining 0.52 x 0.75 (Signal Supression V) = 0.39 0.39 x 0.75 (Damp Bonus from Gal Cruiser V) = 0.2925 That's 29.25% scan res/targeting remaining or ~71% strength currently. With two T1 damp rigs it's about ~77% strength. With a good EW warfare link pilot you can maybe get 82% strength. Anyway, under new system it's like this: 0.34 base 0.66 remaining 0.66 x 0.75 (Sig Sup V) = 0.495 0.495 x 0.75 (Ship V) = 0.3712 So thats about 63% strength, or ~67% strength with two rigs. Basically you need two rigs to get the same strength as an un-rigged ship before and you lose lots of the secondary effect on the script, so if you go for -67% targeting range you should get a scan resolution strength of ~50%. So with two T2 damps on a max-skilled double-rigged damp-spec ship you will still drop a target to around 10-12% base locking range and 25% scan resolution which isn't too bad. Of course, it will be absolute garbage on a normal ship. --btw Arana, I agree with your overall point that damps look like they got hit too hard, and especially damp-spec ships (your numbers are just wrong though); most EW support pilots will just go to flying Falcons with five or six 14-point jammers, or an inty-speed Kitsune with four 12.7-point ones. Increasing the damp strength bonus on Gal Recons to 7.5% per level would alleviate most of the problem.
Kublai Khan Caldari TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.03 07:53:00 - [19] Why do you need a 100% lockdown of one ship? cant you just as easy sit at 60km with your fleet with tacklers on your target and keep 2x targets from locking your ships at range? The nerf is good. Maybe at tad bit overdone tho. ECM locking down a ship 100%? If youre not flying caldari ships you shouldnt be talking.
oniplE NED-Clan R i s e	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:45:00 - [20] Edited by: oniplE on 03/11/2007 11:46:45 Seems only fair that the lachesis, arazu and keres get their damp bonus increased. The ECM boats now get a 100% bonus with max skills, the damp boats get 25%... Plus ECM has modules that boosts their EW strength and their rigs give a 10% bonus instead of 5% for the damps. x
joshmorris Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.03 16:02:00 - [21] I don't know why they didn't just split the modual up (choose range or targeting speed) cause they would of balanced it perfectly imo ... At least with damps you can get into range and there pointless ( views from me a deimos pilot) but ecm im screwed if i didn't have my drones out when they agressed ... now even if i do have my drones out they can get easily popped so i have NO defense ... 3 mid slots ... mwd , warp distruptor , ECCM .. wait im still jammed .. Uber idea solves all !!
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Santa Anna Damps were made less stupidly overpowered. Even with the nerfed rigs it takes 2 range-scripted sensor boosters to counter a single range-scripted damp. It's still the most powerful ewar in eve. No. Please read the following very carefully. 1. You are comparing a fully skilled pilot in a Gallente recon, with 2 damp rigs against someone who throws a Sensor Booster in a mid-slot. Hardly a fair comparison. 2. It's really not practical to evaluate the effectiveness of a Sensor Damp by directly comparing it to the effectiveness of a Sensor Booster, for 2 reasons: a) The Sensor Damp has to be effective enough to eliminate the difference between the max targeting range of its target and the actual enaggement range in a fight before it has ANY effect whatsoever. So, for example: an undamped targeting range of 90km on a Raven which is then reduced to 25km with x damps, x skills, x rigs, etc is completely useless if the engagement takes place at less than 25km. In other words, the mid slots, modules, training, rigs, etc devoted to using the damps have given you absolutely no benefit in this situation. b) Are Sensor Boosters designed to boost your targeting range beyond what it would normally be so you can engage at longer ranges, and increase your scan resolution so that you can lock targets faster? Or are they designed to counter Sensor Damp modules by enabling you to retain your targeting range and retain your scan resolution if dampened? Either way, the fact is that Sensor Boosters have a dual application, and I would bet that the vast majority of players who use Sensor Boosters do so specifically for the first reason in mind. A Sensor Booster is an extremely powerful, easy to fit, and very, very commonly used module. To suggest then that Damps are overpowered because they more than negate a Sensor Booster is ridiculous. If they were purely anti-damp modules then they should only negate the targeting range/scan resolution taken from them by damps without giving additional range/scan resolution benefits. How many people would fit them then? Until that happens, they shouldn't come anywhere near completely negating a damp's effects. I'd recommend keeping the script idea and let damps remain at their current TQ level of effectiveness. That's quite a change in itself. If it's deemed they must be nerfed further, start with a more reasonable 5% nerf.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 21:50:00 - [23] Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 03/11/2007 21:53:52 I still get 40% and 44% to damps and tracking disruptors respectively (signal suppression 4 and turret destabilization 2) on NON-ewar ships without rigs, so where is the nerf? I can range damp small ship and scan res damp large ones (to run like hell); foul the optimal of snipers decently or rip their tracking to capital levels and they have little with which to counter it, then where is the so-called Nerf? A little micromanagement and the enemy is still gutted. To the OP, you are forgetting that that sensor booster might have script for scan res OR longer locking range. If they have 2 SB loaded with range script, their lock time is going to be slower. If both are loaded with scan res, their lock range is abysmal. Your Arazu/Lachesis isn't obsolete, just takes a bit more to figure out how to micromanage to max effect. THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet Skeet L33t
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.04 02:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Futher Bezluden Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 03/11/2007 21:53:52 I still get 40% and 44% to damps and tracking disruptors respectively (signal suppression 4 and turret destabilization 2) on NON-ewar ships without rigs, so where is the nerf? I can range damp small ship and scan res damp large ones (to run like hell); foul the optimal of snipers decently or rip their tracking to capital levels and they have little with which to counter it, then where is the so-called Nerf? A little micromanagement and the enemy is still gutted. To the OP, you are forgetting that that sensor booster might have script for scan res OR longer locking range. If they have 2 SB loaded with range script, their lock time is going to be slower. If both are loaded with scan res, their lock range is abysmal. Your Arazu/Lachesis isn't obsolete, just takes a bit more to figure out how to micromanage to max effect. And while I am changing the script I am already targetted and dead because the ship is paper thin. Where is the nerf? Sensor damp IIs had a base of 48%, now your getting 40% with the level IV skill, have you used damps? Maybe the numbers come out for that particular set of parameters, anyway, the srength is still very much reduced and the final numbers very similar for the new damps. Sensor damps are not like ECM where ECCM modules (the counter) are there to ONLY counter ECM (and make you a bit harder to scan in a mission.....). --------------------------------- Thorax type R&R. (Ribbed and R rated)
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.11.04 05:18:00 - [25] Sensor damps are also currently not like ECCM, in which ECCM is actually effective. If you have 3 damps on an UNBONUSED ship and target a ship with 3 sensor boosters, the sensor booster ship still has less than half his lock range and scan res. The FACT is, under current conditions, if you put 3 damps on someone they can't target anything. They become 100% useless except for randomly targeting drones that they might not even have had in space yet.
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.11.04 05:29:00 - [26] Edited by: Phaedruss on 04/11/2007 05:32:24 Edited by: Phaedruss on 04/11/2007 05:30:56 Originally by: Xequecal Sensor damps are also currently not like ECCM, in which ECCM is actually effective. If you have 3 damps on an UNBONUSED ship and target a ship with 3 sensor boosters, the sensor booster ship still has less than half his lock range and scan res. The FACT is, under current conditions, if you put 3 damps on someone they can't target anything. They become 100% useless except for randomly targeting drones that they might not even have had in space yet. Not true. It depends entirely on the engagement range. It's quite possible that you could use 3 mid-slots, weeks of training, and millions of isk for a damp rig and get absolutely no benefit from it whatsoever, even if the target is un-sensor boosted, if its a short range engagement. Add a sensor booster to the target in those scenarios and it gets even worse for the damp boat because it now has a lock time disadvantage as well as being 100% ineffective at longer ranges. Yep, damps get more effective in longer range engagements, but then at least you don't have to worry so much about being damped and scrammed with no way out. Besides, ships with multiple Sensor Boosters these days are by no means rare, and they usually aren't fit that way with countering damps in mind. Sensor Boosters also have the added benefit of being extremely useful when they're not being targeted by damps.

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