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Du Sytar	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:04:00 - [1] Edited by: Du Sytar on 04/11/2007 00:05:34 Lets say you've got limited cash. Enough money to buy a Rapier or an Arazu and fit it in complete T2, but not enough for faction. Then lets say your moving to an area of space that has lots of solo/duo hostile nano ships flying around, frequent solo isk farmers, and occasional bubble camps. Most of the time, in this hypothetical example, you'll be solo, occasionally you will join up with another Nano ship (Vagabond, Ishtar, Rapier, or Arazu), and on rare occasions with 5+ man roaming gangs. For this hypothetical situation would you buy a Rapier, or an Arazu assuming they cost the same? Rapier Faster then the Arazu Long-range Webs for Nano ships, thus speed dictation Target Painters to help kill smaller buggers Less DPS, but slightly better tank *Better fighting Nano Ships, worse fighting NPCers Arazu Long Range Warp Disrupters to hold slow targets at a safe distance Powerful Sensor Dampeners to keep said targets from attacking you More DPS, but slightly weaker tank. Slower then Rapier, and cannot dictate range to nano ships. *Better fighting NPCers, worse fighting Nano Ships -~-~-~-~-~-~-Alt PosterBut does it really matter?
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:06:00 - [2] I'll point out one thing, nano-ships typically have short locking ranges. Arazus have sensor damps. 2 + 2 = Vagabonds within web range. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:07:00 - [3] I'd buy a Rapier tbqfh. The 'zu is getting nerfed. (Note that I fly the 'zu currently). Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
gregory j Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:25:00 - [4] Edited by: gregory j on 04/11/2007 00:26:44 I'd say fly around in combat recons for half/one third the price and figure out what works better for you. In contrast with much of EVE, the bonuses on these ships can give you an intuitive idea of what they are good against solo. Minmatar Recons vs. speed ships Gallente Recons vs. big / slow ships Cap often gets overlooked when soloing in recons...you aren't tanking anything long and you aren't killing anything fast, so make sure your setup can run for awhile. ------------------------------------------------ 2007.02.22 03:34 This evemail message is subject to a CSPA service charge of 2,000,000,000 ISK, which you must accept to complete the invitation.
Du Sytar	Posted - 2007.11.04 00:35:00 - [5] Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd buy a Rapier tbqfh. The 'zu is getting nerfed. (Note that I fly the 'zu currently). Liang How is the 'zu' being nerfed? I thought it was only sensor damps, and I thought they were already nerfed? Sorry for the easily found out question- Dev Blogs seem to be missing. -~-~-~-~-~-~-Alt PosterBut does it really matter?
William DeMeo Gallente the united	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:12:00 - [6] Edited by: William DeMeo on 04/11/2007 01:13:13 Originally by: Acoco Osiris I'll point out one thing, nano-ships typically have short locking ranges. Arazus have sensor damps. 2 + 2 = Vagabonds within web range. Yeah but you're not gonna kill a vagabond with an arazu anyway. The vaga would probably be able to tank the arazu long enough to get a lock and then raep. Dunno. EDIT: Also get a rapier, it'll be more useful. Yarr
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:15:00 - [7] Originally by: Du Sytar Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd buy a Rapier tbqfh. The 'zu is getting nerfed. (Note that I fly the 'zu currently). Liang How is the 'zu' being nerfed? I thought it was only sensor damps, and I thought they were already nerfed? Sorry for the easily found out question- Dev Blogs seem to be missing. If you nerf ewar, you nerf the ship that is specialized in it. Sorry if that seems a bit discontinuous. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Du Sytar	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Du Sytar Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd buy a Rapier tbqfh. The 'zu is getting nerfed. (Note that I fly the 'zu currently). Liang How is the 'zu' being nerfed? I thought it was only sensor damps, and I thought they were already nerfed? Sorry for the easily found out question- Dev Blogs seem to be missing. If you nerf ewar, you nerf the ship that is specialized in it. Sorry if that seems a bit discontinuous. Liang Aye, but they ain't nerfing it badly. Not like ECMs. Its just lock range or lock time. The 'zu' will survive that... I hope. If not, I don't mind losing a few hundred mil. Easy come easy go, aye? -~-~-~-~-~-~-Alt PosterBut does it really matter?
Mr. Orange Gallente Band of Freelancers	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:32:00 - [9] The Arazu is not getting nerfed because of the new "script" damps. In the new patch you will have to choose; lock range or lock time. Since Arazu has weak DPS it's not exactly a solo boat, it's very much a gang ship so people will be choosing range over lock time. You scramble out to 48km w/Recon5 and T2 kit and damp the target to 7-10km lock range, you keep him that way for your damage dealer(s) to come and return the victim to his cloning station. The Pusher Man
James Adams Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Mr. Orange You scramble out to 48km w/Recon5 and T2 kit and damp the target to 7-10km lock range, you keep him that way for your damage dealer(s) to come and return the victim to his cloning station. Heh, with the new scripts you ain't dampning anything except frigates down to 7km lock range. Got a max skilled Lachesis/Arazu and with 4 of the new RSDs (with lock range scripts) I could put a Dominix down to 11km lock range - Try fitting 4 damps on an Arazu Not to mention what would happen when the Vagabond decided to go within his lock range - He'll have his usual lock time (which is what, 4-5 seconds on another cruiser?) and you'll be dead before you can say "D'OH" Naah, with the current implementation the Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis are... I won't go as far as to say useless as someone will eventually prove me wrong, but DAMN they're a far shot from their old glory.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.11.04 02:54:00 - [11] Originally by: James Adams Originally by: Mr. Orange You scramble out to 48km w/Recon5 and T2 kit and damp the target to 7-10km lock range, you keep him that way for your damage dealer(s) to come and return the victim to his cloning station. Heh, with the new scripts you ain't dampning anything except frigates down to 7km lock range. Got a max skilled Lachesis/Arazu and with 4 of the new RSDs (with lock range scripts) I could put a Dominix down to 11km lock range - Try fitting 4 damps on an Arazu Not to mention what would happen when the Vagabond decided to go within his lock range - He'll have his usual lock time (which is what, 4-5 seconds on another cruiser?) and you'll be dead before you can say "D'OH" Naah, with the current implementation the Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis are... I won't go as far as to say useless as someone will eventually prove me wrong, but DAMN they're a far shot from their old glory. Yep. Devs have effectively removed damp ships from the game when you're talking about using the damp ships in 1v1 combat. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: James Adams Originally by: Mr. Orange You scramble out to 48km w/Recon5 and T2 kit and damp the target to 7-10km lock range, you keep him that way for your damage dealer(s) to come and return the victim to his cloning station. Heh, with the new scripts you ain't dampning anything except frigates down to 7km lock range. Got a max skilled Lachesis/Arazu and with 4 of the new RSDs (with lock range scripts) I could put a Dominix down to 11km lock range - Try fitting 4 damps on an Arazu Not to mention what would happen when the Vagabond decided to go within his lock range - He'll have his usual lock time (which is what, 4-5 seconds on another cruiser?) and you'll be dead before you can say "D'OH" Naah, with the current implementation the Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis are... I won't go as far as to say useless as someone will eventually prove me wrong, but DAMN they're a far shot from their old glory. Yep. Devs have effectively removed damp ships from the game when you're talking about using the damp ships in 1v1 combat. I agree that the damp nerf seems a little harsh, but really, are they any worse off than another form of EWAR now? ECM totally disables locking regardless of distance or lock time but is, of course, chance-based. Tracking Disruptors can theoretically be alleviated by web and good piloting (and that's if they affect you at all - missiles and drones don't care). ECM is still more 'all or nothing' than damps are... Tracking distruptors have the most consistent affect but have a similarly reduced target selection. Just trying to point out that, from an objective (or ignorant cause I have ZERO ewar skills but have been exposed to all three kidns) standpoint, EWAR seems to be, in the abstract sense, approaching balance. Just a thought. __________________________________
Du Sytar	Posted - 2007.11.04 07:18:00 - [13] And thus I have bought a Rapier. I'll probably break down, and buy an Arazu later next week though. >.> I have no willpower, and its cheaper then a Vaga. :p Thanks for ya'lls help. -~-~-~-~-~-~-Alt PosterBut does it really matter?
DroppedAschild	Posted - 2007.11.04 11:29:00 - [14] The RSD nerf which is on sisi is a bit to much for my taste. Now RSD II have a base strength of 17% down from 48% which means that if you want to be as effective as a non skilled pilot with phased muons on tranq , you will need gal frig/cruiser V and Signal Suppression level 3 and fly a maulus , celestis/arazu/lach . Even if the bonuses of the damp ships will be upped to 10%/level they will still have an damp strength decrease of 20%.
Kel Solaar Soulbound.	Posted - 2007.11.04 13:56:00 - [15] Originally by: DroppedAschild The RSD nerf which is on sisi is a bit to much for my taste. Now RSD II have a base strength of 17% down from 48% which means that if you want to be as effective as a non skilled pilot with phased muons on tranq , you will need gal frig/cruiser V and Signal Suppression level 3 and fly a maulus , celestis/arazu/lach . Even if the bonuses of the damp ships will be upped to 10%/level they will still have an damp strength decrease of 20%. Yeah clearly... It's really a problem for all Celestis Class ships. Any double Sensor Boostered BS can send a 3 phased muon Arazu in grave now... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.11.04 14:02:00 - [16] Unless you absolutely need to use them as sneaky Force Recons (with the covert ops cloak), the Lachesis is better than the Arazu and the Huginn is better than the Rapier.
Kel Solaar Soulbound.	Posted - 2007.11.04 14:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Unless you absolutely need to use them as sneaky Force Recons (with the covert ops cloak), the Lachesis is better than the Arazu and the Huginn is better than the Rapier. Yeah totally agree :) But no matter how u will use the ship, 3 dampeners will still have the same effects on Razu or Lacha. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rudy Metallo Additional Pylons	Posted - 2007.11.04 14:31:00 - [18] Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 04/11/2007 14:32:45 Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 04/11/2007 14:32:17 Originally by: Kel Solaar Originally by: DroppedAschild The RSD nerf which is on sisi is a bit to much for my taste. Now RSD II have a base strength of 17% down from 48% which means that if you want to be as effective as a non skilled pilot with phased muons on tranq , you will need gal frig/cruiser V and Signal Suppression level 3 and fly a maulus , celestis/arazu/lach . Even if the bonuses of the damp ships will be upped to 10%/level they will still have an damp strength decrease of 20%. Yeah clearly... It's really a problem for all Celestis Class ships. Any double Sensor Boostered BS can send a 3 phased muon Arazu in grave now... They're going to be using charges, whichn will clearly boost one of those stats more than the other. Think -> Post. Secondly, you do realise that no ships besides Caldari have over 5 midslots? So if you fit two sensor boosters onto a BS fitted for solo, then that severely nerfs either your tanking or tackling ability. And Caldari cant tackle anyway, so who cares about them. So saying "Any double Sensor boosted BS" is like saying "about 5% of the solo BS I encounter, unless they're in a gang in which case a warp out/die immidiatly". and @ Reem: He's in .0. In .0 while solo you need a) a cloak or b) a nano-ship. 2nd edit: And go for the rapier, it beats the zu hands down. -- We are the revolutionaries. We are the usurpers of the heavenly throne. We are the enemies of the Gods.
Mr Ignitious Gallente Kingpins	Posted - 2007.11.04 14:32:00 - [19] I personally was about to by my arazu just the other day, but then i remember what i saw what happened to sensor damps on sisi, the t2 sensor damp is only doing 17% to lock range and 17% to scan res...i don't know where to get these scripts but jesus christ man, they absolute crap now, so i decided not to get myself my arazu...and i'm not going to get a lachesis either as i don't have good missile skills... my recommendation is go for the rapier... although i'm concerned even for it cuz i recently saw a few whine threads about webs and people saying they're overpowered. if things keep going down the pattern they are, all recons will be worthless because ewar is gettting turned into a worthless pile....you get the idea (i think i made it obvious that i've been working towards the arazu for a while and i'm just distraught by the fact that they ruined sensor damps) i think that they shouldn't have changed the percentages, leave it at 48% but do their whole One or the Other so we'd still just have to pick either lock range or lock time damping....but w/e my 2isk's is go for the rapier.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.04 15:10:00 - [20] The two ships fitted with long range guns are THE gank force. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
DroppedAschild	Posted - 2007.11.04 15:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Rudy Metallo Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 04/11/2007 14:32:45 Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 04/11/2007 14:32:17 Originally by: Kel Solaar Originally by: DroppedAschild The RSD nerf which is on sisi is a bit to much for my taste. Now RSD II have a base strength of 17% down from 48% which means that if you want to be as effective as a non skilled pilot with phased muons on tranq , you will need gal frig/cruiser V and Signal Suppression level 3 and fly a maulus , celestis/arazu/lach . Even if the bonuses of the damp ships will be upped to 10%/level they will still have an damp strength decrease of 20%. Yeah clearly... It's really a problem for all Celestis Class ships. Any double Sensor Boostered BS can send a 3 phased muon Arazu in grave now... They're going to be using charges, whichn will clearly boost one of those stats more than the other. Think -> Post. Secondly, you do realise that no ships besides Caldari have over 5 midslots? So if you fit two sensor boosters onto a BS fitted for solo, then that severely nerfs either your tanking or tackling ability. And Caldari cant tackle anyway, so who cares about them. So saying "Any double Sensor boosted BS" is like saying "about 5% of the solo BS I encounter, unless they're in a gang in which case a warp out/die immidiatly". and @ Reem: He's in .0. In .0 while solo you need a) a cloak or b) a nano-ship. 2nd edit: And go for the rapier, it beats the zu hands down. Charges have already been seeded on sisi , 100% boost for one attrib and a -100% for the other. However if you had actually red my post and done a little research for yourself you would have seen that while most of the modules with 2 bonuses ( Sensor boosters , tracking computer , disruptors ) had there bonuses halved while the damps where changed from 48% to 17% which is around 65% decrease.
Litheye	Posted - 2007.11.04 18:28:00 - [22] The nerf hasn't come in yet, get the best of both worlds and fly a damp-rapier!
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.04 19:17:00 - [23] Hopefully this will make some gallente ships cheaper ^^ _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.11.04 23:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Du Sytar Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd buy a Rapier tbqfh. The 'zu is getting nerfed. (Note that I fly the 'zu currently). Liang How is the 'zu' being nerfed? I thought it was only sensor damps, and I thought they were already nerfed? The ship formerly known as Arazu is getting its name nerfed to the incredibly lame "'zu". * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.04 23:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Litheye The nerf hasn't come in yet, get the best of both worlds and fly a damp-rapier! This :P
Delnas White-Noise Skunk-Works	Posted - 2007.11.04 23:45:00 - [26] Edited by: Delnas on 04/11/2007 23:47:06 Originally by: Litheye The nerf hasn't come in yet, get the best of both worlds and fly a damp-rapier! I think the Damp-Rapier will still be effective after the changes. Hopefully they'll still be atleast somewhat use able. Worst comes to worst, you could always drop your two damps for two LSEs, and drop your warp disrupter for an invulnerability field then fly with a wing mate. But, honestly, at that point, why not just go with a Nano Vaga/Ishtar? **** White-Noise Nuff said.
HostageTaker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.05 01:15:00 - [27] In the year 2000! CCP will finally put the final nail in and have every type of ship class come perma-fit, removing any creativity from the player! The last remaining pilots will fly the same exact cookie cutter ships into combat while the other remaining population strut around station stores and cafes perfecting their emote skills for the upcoming WhiteWolf+CCP MMO. In the year 2000!!!! Quote if you get the reference ^^ >>> EvE-Online Wallpapers <<<
Delnas White-Noise Skunk-Works	Posted - 2007.11.05 01:57:00 - [28] Originally by: HostageTaker CCP will finally put the final nail in and have every type of ship class come perma-fit, removing any creativity from the player! The last remaining pilots will fly the same exact cookie cutter ships into combat while the other remaining population strut around station stores and cafes perfecting their emote skills for the upcoming WhiteWolf+CCP MMO. Ignoring any sarcasm that may have been in your post, its sad, but I think that may have some truth in it. It seems like CCP just nerfs whatever people whine about, and add ships that don't add anything to the game. :( EVE-Online, for what I enjoy, is still the best game out there, but it is not the same game I feel in love with two years ago. **** White-Noise Nuff said.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.05 06:25:00 - [29] train both, but hit the Arazu first - its simply better in all situations except killing smaller/nano ships. Especially with bigger ships - the arazu is simply king. -----------
Du Sytar	Posted - 2007.11.05 08:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Atius Tirawa train both, but hit the Arazu first - its simply better in all situations except killing smaller/nano ships. Especially with bigger ships - the arazu is simply king. I have the good fortune of age behind me. I can fly every non-capital in the game. ^_^ I plan on getting both, though I disagree. Purely in theory, it seems the Rapier has the general advantage. You still get SDs that take the target's lock rage down below your combat range, plus you get long range webbers for Nanos and the all-to-common gate work. I still have two days on Medium Artillery Specialization (I can fly all ships, but I still have not trained their T2 guns... nor will I. Medium Projectiles are it, damnit!... Oooo, Pulse Lasers.... mmmMMmmm) so its all theory for now though. -~-~-~-~-~-~-Alt PosterBut does it really matter?

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