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Leroy Payne	Posted - 2007.11.08 15:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Leroy Payne on 08/11/2007 15:29:17 It seems to me a lot of changes happening to EVE that have got a lot of very sad people very worked up indeed. Almost every other thread I see statements like this: "OH MY GOD DO YOU DEVS EVEN THINK ABOUT THESE CHANGES; DO YOU EVEN PLAY EVE? LEAVE MY CARRIER/DRONES/SNOWBALL LAUNCHER ALONE!!!111" To the people writing things like this: Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the devs actually think about the game a lot more than you do, and from a much broader perspective. They are in fact paid to think about the game, and probably spend in the region of 40 hours a week thinking about game design/mechanics changes and their implications on a global scale, NOT just in terms of what ships they fly or what their flavour of the month happens to be Perhaps you should also consider the possibility that whole teams of these devs sit together and discuss the changes and their implications in a systematic and businesslike way, and that the changes they come up with are likely to have far more reasoning than your pathetically childish knee-jerk reactions to some stats on a test server. Just because you chose to spend 6 months training a carrier doesn't mean this game owes you something. Just because you have 6 million sp in drones doesn't mean that your childish opinion on EVE game design is suddenly validated. Perhaps you should consider that your opinions about carriers and drones are the ones that are mistaken, wrong, badly thought out, unsustainable, whatever you want to call it, and that the Devs might be right. You are being like football supporters who can't even hold down a simple job but think somehow they could do a better job than their team's manager. If you think you should be a game designer, then apply to CCP and do a better job than they are. And finally, if after reading all this you still think your self-indulgent ranting and verbal abuse of devs is justified because you might have to use your carrier as it was originally intended for the first time since they were introduced, perhaps you should consider taking a deep breath, stepping away from your computer's screen, and getting a f'in life. So my advice to Devs is to carry on making this pretty damn good game in the way you have in the past. Argue it out amongst yourselves around a table and ignore this stupid childish ranting on the forums. In fact all devs should be banned from forums in case they are even in the slightest influenced by some of the rubbish being written here by people who donÆt seem to have the ability to think further forward than their own nose, and fill in their lack of reasoning with capital letters.
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:24:00 - [2] CCP Zulupark, is that you?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:33:00 - [3] Originally by: Leroy Payne To the people writing things like this: Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the devs actually think about the game a lot more than you do, and from a much broader perspective. They are in fact paid to think about the game, and probably spend in the region of 40 hours a week thinking about game design/mechanics changes and their implications on a global scale, NOT just in terms of what ships they fly or what their flavour of the month happens to be Sometimes one has to wonder with ships like the pathetic excuse for a ship that the Paladin was looking to be. It was a real laughing stock and apparently the Devs did look at it again and have improved it's stats. So, apparently the Devs, despite all their well considered plans, can get it wrong and the playerbase can catch these issues. Although I agree too much of the whining, particularly about carriers, are like the rants of a kid who has his favorite toy taken away with NO regard for the larger gameplay issues at stake.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:33:00 - [4] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 08/11/2007 16:34:52 tl;dr but I'm pretty sure I agree with you anyway edit: and Imp Jo; they were placeholder stats to begin with that everyone was whining about, way to go community for missing the point yet again Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Although I agree too much of the whining, particularly about carriers, are like the rants of a kid who has his favorite toy taken away with NO regard for the larger gameplay issues at stake. This. Every time I hear anyone even begin to whine about the carrier nerf I just stop reading because I'm so annoyed by the constant dribble. The same is true with drone bandwidth, which is pretty bad since I have 5 million SP in guns and 150K in Gunnery. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:40:00 - [6] Bit harsh on the football supporters aren't you? Some of them have jobs.... C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Tarminic This. Every time I hear anyone even begin to whine about the carrier nerf I just stop reading because I'm so annoyed by the constant dribble. The same is true with drone bandwidth, which is pretty bad since I have 5 million SP in guns and 150K in Gunnery. Sort of signed-ish on the first part, but I do think the bandwidth system (or at least the version I most recently heard) might well be a case of fixing something that isn't broken. As the OP rightly pointed out, however, I've not spend hours upon hours in meetings doing fiddly DPS mathematics. In any case, the carrier alterations make a considerable amount of sense from my perspective, and I await the use of the carrier as an actualy tactical fleet support vessel as opposed to being some kind of uber-droneboat freighter ownmobile with great anticipation. I just wish people would stop calling it "The most stupid mistake CCP has ever made" - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Stitcher Originally by: Tarminic This. Every time I hear anyone even begin to whine about the carrier nerf I just stop reading because I'm so annoyed by the constant dribble. The same is true with drone bandwidth, which is pretty bad since I have 5 million SP in guns and 150K in Gunnery. Sort of signed-ish on the first part, but I do think the bandwidth system (or at least the version I most recently heard) might well be a case of fixing something that isn't broken. As the OP rightly pointed out, however, I've not spend hours upon hours in meetings doing fiddly DPS mathematics. It may be, but after spending so much time trying to pick valid arguments out of massive amounts of whining and inane dribble, I honestly no longer care. Quote: In any case, the carrier alterations make a considerable amount of sense from my perspective, and I await the use of the carrier as an actualy tactical fleet support vessel as opposed to being some kind of uber-droneboat freighter ownmobile with great anticipation. I just wish people would stop calling it "The most stupid mistake CCP has ever made" Agreed. This change affects - liberally - about 30% of the players. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Tortun Nahme edit: and Imp Jo; they were placeholder stats to begin with that everyone was whining about, way to go community for missing the point yet again The stats on Sisi are more than placeholders which implies some random stat thrown in till they get around to it. Sisi is where they put new content/changes for a final check before going live. Granted anything may change between Sisi and going live but the stats are real stats and barring some overt issues are likely to go live with only minor tweaks. In the case of the Paladin absolutely everyone, even Amarr haters, had a big "WTF are you thinking!?" with that ship which makes one wonder just what it was they talked about in their meetings when designing the ships and how they ever thought it was a remotely decent design.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:01:00 - [10] except the devs stated tiem and again in nearly every whien thread that THOSE STATS WERE PLACEHOLDERS << see what I did there? Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Motokko	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:03:00 - [11] I fully endorse the original post. Imagine what this game would be like if everyone whi thought they knew better was allowed to make their proposed changes live each patch. My god. ------------------- "Stay Alert! Trust No One! Keep Your Laser Handy!"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Tortun Nahme except the devs stated tiem and again in nearly every whien thread that THOSE STATS WERE PLACEHOLDERS << see what I did there? Link? If you mean Sisi is a TEST server and nothing is written in stone fine...I agree. That is why Sisi exists. If you mean they just tossed some content on there but never really meant for the ships to behave anything like that then I disagree completely. What is the point of the test server if the content is not mostly where they are going with their designs?
Matsui Hideki	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Gridwalker CCP Zulupark, is that you?
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Gridwalker CCP Zulupark, is that you? Its not Zulupark...this guy actually seems to have a slight clue about how the game actually works. However, he's still got it wrong - the Devs should read the Forums, and actually play the game. That's something that ZuluPark obviously didn't do: His MegaNerf was totally out of line with any experience of an actual Eve Player.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:16:00 - [15] Yes of course, Zulupark being ex-QA from reading the blog obviously doesn't play the game. Cause that's what i thought testers did, you know, play the game.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:16:00 - [16] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 08/11/2007 17:16:52 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Tortun Nahme except the devs stated tiem and again in nearly every whien thread that THOSE STATS WERE PLACEHOLDERS << see what I did there? Link? If you mean Sisi is a TEST server and nothing is written in stone fine...I agree. That is why Sisi exists. If you mean they just tossed some content on there but never really meant for the ships to behave anything like that then I disagree completely. What is the point of the test server if the content is not mostly where they are going with their designs? Originally by: CCP Chronotis those are placeholder stats, so feel free to speculate over them but pay attention to the crystal ball Blogs are being written to cover all this which will hopefully get released early next week. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=607521&page=9 have you been introduced to this? Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Princess Jodi Originally by: Gridwalker CCP Zulupark, is that you? Its not Zulupark...this guy actually seems to have a slight clue about how the game actually works. However, he's still got it wrong - the Devs should read the Forums, and actually play the game. That's something that ZuluPark obviously didn't do: His MegaNerf was totally out of line with any experience of an actual Eve Player. This is where it sucks to be a Dev. Do you honestly believe Zulupark was solely responsible for these changes. That one say he just sat down and penned a Blog with large changes to carriers and that NO ONE checked his work and just lets him do as he sees fit? Or do you think it is more likely that he was the sacrificial lamb as the new guy offered up to draw the ire of the community for changes they are all responsible for?
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Leroy Payne Edited by: Leroy Payne on 08/11/2007 15:29:17 SNOWBALL LAUNCHER ALONE!!!111" I still want a Snowball Launcher. You know, I wonder if CCP is like the U.S. Supreme Court. They have clerks go through the forums and if enough of the clerks agree with a particular topic then they show it to the Judge. I know CCP does read the forums I can't believe they read every single whine or thread. If I was with CCP I would read every thread with a beer in one hand and a pencil in the other. This way I can write down all the threads that made sense and in the morning going over the list erase all the ones that were just pointless. The remaining threads I would go back and re-read. My thinking, if it makes sense drunk & sober then I need to look into it. Other than that - CCP keep up the good work. I may not always agree with what you do or how you do it but I will support you in your decisions. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:21:00 - [19] Edited by: Sarah McTeef on 08/11/2007 17:21:31 I believe CCP should continue to read the forums, they need to know what the community is thinking. The problem lies that even native speakers of English for the most part aren't great writers, add in that a large part of communicating is nonverbal, throw that into a limited text only environment and you aren't going to like the result. Everyone reads into each word exactly what they want to get out of it before even having digested the message. Tones and meanings are implied that probably aren't there at all and the entire thing degrades into a flamewar. I believe it would be much better if CCP stopped posting in the forums with the exception of moderation and approved PR messages. The devs need to tell us things sure, but it should be measured and consistent. People responding rag tag can get contradicting information into the public consciousness and lead to even more problems. The dev blogs are the perfect place for CCP employees to communicate back at us for things that are beyond simple help about a specific game question. Perhaps they should be the only official one permited.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Blogs are being written to cover all this which will hopefully get released early next week. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=607521&page=9 have you been introduced to this? Have you been introduced to Dev Blogs as noted in his post? From their Dev Blog: Quote: Paladin * Hull: Apocalypse / Carthum Conglomerate * Slots: 7/4/7, 4 turrets * Fitting: 500tf, 13,500mw * Drones: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 75m3 dronebay * Sensors: 12pt radar, 10 target locks * Propulsion: 125m/s, 110,000,000kg * Tech II resistance bonus: 25% explosive, 12.5% kinetic Bonuses: * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Amarr BS level * 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams When using -90% webifiers, the stasis webifier velocity factor bonus increases the velocity factor penalty up to -99%, at which point a single webifier is as effective as two webifiers mounted on a standard ship. This means that the Paladin can easily hit any ship within web range, once the transversal velocity slows down. SOURCE: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=513 Where is the "placeholder" in all that?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:25:00 - [21] where is the "whiners have got it "fixed" in that? Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Tortun Nahme where is the "whiners have got it "fixed" in that? While I still think the Paladin is lacking on Sisi the tracking bonus has been replaced with a 5% damage bonus.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:42:00 - [23] An Internet forum is a web application for holding discussions and posting user generated content.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Leroy Payne Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the devs actually think about the game a lot more than you do, and from a much broader perspective. They are in fact paid to think about the game, and probably spend in the region of 40 hours a week thinking about game design/mechanics changes and their implications on a global scale, NOT just in terms of what ships they fly or what their flavour of the month happens to be Perhaps you should also consider the possibility that whole teams of these devs sit together and discuss the changes and their implications in a systematic and businesslike way, and that the changes they come up with are likely to have far more reasoning than your pathetically childish knee-jerk reactions to some stats on a test server. However changes still make it onto SiSi and Tranq that take the average community member mere moments to realize are downright ridiculous. CCP makes mistakes, I'm not saying every dribbling idiot should be listened to but feedback is essential. Sometimes CCP shows a shocking lack of foresight not quite realizing that if they do a and b then c will obviously happen. A lot of the time it's something that they couldn't have forseen, so we tell them, sometimes it's something a trained ape could have spotted and we're left to assume they were too wrapped up in other projects to notice. CCP do fine work and are making EVE into the greatest game known to mankind (at least as far as I'm concerned) but the moment they stop listening to the community is the moment it all starts falling apart. Yes some peoples opinion is biased, some are downright dumb or just misguided. It's the devs job to know the difference between these and the valid concerns and ideas. We'd fare a lot better if we had some kind of statement of purpose with each changeIf CCP said we have done A because of B then people can look at this and weigh it and rationally consider the implications that CCP may not have noticed. If we knew how the change fitted in with the greater vision then we would be in a better position to STFU. When a biased opinion is expressed we can tell them that they are wrong and this is best for the game. But at the moment the community is facing a lot of changes and many of them have no explanation, this has lead to not only the standard "you nerfed my toy" posts but general confusion over the direction the game is taking and how these changes follow that direction. tl;dr version: CCP need us to point out the flaws, though I don't envy them wading through crap to find diamonds. We need CCP to tell us what they are trying to achieve so that we can better understand it and provide better feedback. We're not just players, we're quality control. SiSi cannot reflect the conditions on Tranq nor the ingenuity of the entire playerbase.
Kuranta	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:12:00 - [25] just.../signed. Thx OP.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:17:00 - [26] Nozh said that he would try to be more active on the forums, he also said he would stop reading if you mention rl/battlestar glactica in your post. that and we don't know quite what they are going to do with carriers yet, and they have implied they will be better at what you want them to be better at. that is except for hauling.
Yukisa	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:56:00 - [27] Devs are only humans.. yes its true! They are short sighted and flawed like anyone else. Hence, when they wanted to nerf speed setups a year ago, what happened? Introduced rigs which stack and snake implants with multiplies speed, gang links that multiplies speed.. leading to the situation we have now. Things flying over 25km/s. Pure short-sightedness. Then the amarr issue.. jeez, fix that already there's plenty of great ideas from the player base which most players with an ounce of reasoning will agree to.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:04:00 - [28] Runs past with hair on fire screaming Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:28:00 - [29] Finally an anti whine thread to counter the douchebags that like to whine!
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:33:00 - [30] The only problem that I seem is the most of the comments on the balance of the game relate to opinion and protecting your current ship builds. The only ones who seem to do the calculations are the Amarr Whiners. The previous amarr whining suggested the Khanid changes. Threads like that are actually worth reading. The counter carrier change threads displayed enough dissatisfaction with the proposed changes (over one hundred pages in various threads) that CCP have backed down to an extent. My opinion is that the proposed changes listed in the Dev Blog were actually very poorly presented and no one could see any logic to the decision. A significant problem at this time is that no one can see what CCP's vision actually is as from the outside it does not appear to be coherrent. The various anti-blob changes are ineffective as they are not stopping any blobs at this time. * Bombs are overpriced and you need in the order of 3-4 to be effective. * Reducing the maximum number of fighters a carrier can field at one time while still allowing assignment doesn't address the problem of drone/fighter spam during fights as people need to dps. People don't launch fighters and drones to meta game they use them to kill. Reducing the number of drones/fighters while retaining the dps is a lot more sensible. Hmmm, some quick math on fighter interactions with the environment (and simplified). 1 carrier with 12 fighters out would have 12 fighters interacting with the objects in the environment say 12^13 (13 being 12 fighters + carrier) = 1E+14 1 carrier with 6 fighters (which do double dps) = 6^7 = 2.8E+05 1 carrier with 4 fighters (which do triple dps) = 4^5 = 1024 The lower the number of fighters/drones on the grid during a fight will provide very significant reductions in the number of calculations on a single node. CCP need to have a coherrent vision of where they're going with EVE. Up to them as to whether or not they share the vision with the players but at this stage it looks like they're just trying to nerf all ships down to the level of Amarr ships. This might satisfy their goal of having combat last longer in eve. Quote: "... I doubt they would have the skillpoints and cap fleet to take and make soverignty over a large established alliance like BoB."

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