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Market Wars Preliminary Discussions

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EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:18:00 - [1] Hi all. I want some discussions on a new game I would like to get some people involved in. We have seen a few people of late starting themselves at nothing to test their skills at turning rags into riches. Now, in true CCP PvP spirit, let's make a competition of it. Let's give people some money and see what they can turn it into. So, this is a discussion to try and wrinkle out the creases and work out the best terms and conditions to avoid/minimise cheating and the likes. Here are the current rules: * EBANK will provide 10m to each entrant * Market Wars dictates all wars are to take place in Jita 4-4 CNAP station * All warriors should have under 1m SP in trade skills (screenshot req) * Market Wars #1 will be a 24 hour war * All winning results will have market orders verified by API * Any ▐obvious fixing will result in disqualification from Market Wars * No Player Trading or Player Donations can be accepted prior or during war. * No prior to war assets can be used during the war * All proceeds of the Market War are returned to EBANK in order to qualify as a Market War finalist/prize-winner * Prizes will be awarded to the winners, amounts currently undecided. ▐ A vote will be held amongst the EBANK board of directors if there is a debate over a true prize-winner of a Market War Discuss and let me know if you can think of changes etc we should look at. This is a planning stage so nothing beyond this thread has been mentioned. Thanks for your time
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:20:00 - [2] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic * All warriors should have under 1m SP in trade skills (screenshot req) Just get their limited use API key. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Hanoi Hana Mitsubishi Group	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:24:00 - [3] Edited by: Hanoi Hana on 08/11/2007 17:25:13 Quote: * Market Wars #1 will be a 24 hour war Which day will it take place on? People work during the weekdays, and sometimes on Saturday and nearly weekly on Sunday Jita is either lagged or un-loginable. Quote: * All winning results will have market orders verified by API Since an API reveals wallet information for any character on the account, who will be using our API to verify? Quote: * Any obvious fixing will result in disqualification from Market Wars How do you keep people from cheating using market orders? There are some clever people out there. :( This is a great idea and I'm looking forward to seeing what can happen. :)
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:27:00 - [4] Edited by: Shar Tegral on 08/11/2007 17:27:45 Originally by: Hanoi Hana Since an API reveals wallet information for any character on the account, who will be using our API to verify? That isn't quite correct I might point out. The full api does allow access but if you don't know the other two char id's you can't just go fishing for it. As an added measure, once the contest is done people can easily change their api key. Edit Note: Key typo there. It's A GIRL!!!!!
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:31:00 - [5] Originally by: Hanoi Hana Which day will it take place on? People work during the weekdays, and sometimes on Saturday and nearly weekly on Sunday Jita is either lagged or un-loginable. No clue atm. I agree weekends can be a bit choppy but the day is one of the last things we need to organise Quote: Since an API reveals wallet information for any character on the account, who will be using our API to verify? EBANK will (or myself basically). I am happy to have a secondary ie Hexxx or one of the board to verify results as well. As Shar has said, a limited API may be all that is needed here. Nothing stopping someone running a trial account for the Market War either Quote: How do you keep people from cheating using market orders? There are some clever people out there. :( Agreed, but they won't get the warm fuzzy feeling in their stomach if they cheat. Plus they might get caught out. Plus, the more they cheat the lower their profit (winnings) as all earnt funds go to EBANK. We are probably sure to have cheats, but I won't hesitate to invalidate them or have the board vote if things look shady.
Hanoi Hana Mitsubishi Group	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Shar Tegral Edited by: Shar Tegral on 08/11/2007 17:27:45 Originally by: Hanoi Hana Since an API reveals wallet information for any character on the account, who will be using our API to verify? That isn't quite correct I might point out. The full api does allow access but if you don't know the other two char id's you can't just go fishing for it. As an added measure, once the contest is done people can easily change their api key. Okies, I guess I don't understand how API works. :( Although when I use EVE MEEP, I type in an account number (strangely called a character number) that allows access to all of my characters' wallet information. Doesn't this mean a Full API gives access to all two or three characters' transactions and journal logs? And I think Ricdic was suggesting using the Full API in order to verify through the transactions and journal logs that no cheating had occurred.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Hanoi Hana Quote: * All winning results will have market orders verified by API Since an API reveals wallet information for any character on the account, who will be using our API to verify? You could just use a through-away trial account if that worries you. You are capped at 1m SP so its not like a regular trade alt would have much of an advantage. Originally by: Hanoi Hana Quote: * Any obvious fixing will result in disqualification from Market Wars How do you keep people from cheating using market orders? There are some clever people out there. :( This will be the greatest challenges. There are alot ways to cheat and still cover your tracks. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:39:00 - [8] Yeh we will need the full API of the winner to verify market / journal etc transactions. A screenshot would be sufficient to verify the skillpoints as I don't expect someone's SP to have a huge affect on the outcome of Market Wars.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:45:00 - [9] It seems people should be required to use trial accounts for this, to keep everyone on a level footing. Everyone should get the same money, be at the same station, same time of the day, etc. Everyone will have to like their trial account to their main obviously. They will have to give full api keys on the trial account away. I'd say there should be several different competitions though. One for 1 million, another for 10, another for 100. See who is the best at each. People can easily enough provide their own funds. The winner gets 50% of all the money, second place gets 25%, 25% to e-bank for organizing and spending the time to verify there was no cheating, etc. That's my thoughts, tho I prob won't have time to participate myself. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:45:00 - [10] As a further thought on the time frame to run the war, why not extend it to run for one week. That would level the playing field somewhat regarding work schedules. It could also make things more interesting, as traders would have the option to choose between high volume small margin and high margin low volume goods. With the one day trading window, someone could just get lucky on picking a high-margin item that happens to trade that day, when it normally only trades a few of times per week. Running it for that little be longer will take out more of the luck factor and keep the results more focused on skill. Of course that could also leave you with a much longer transaction history to check over if there are accusations of cheating. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Hanoi Hana Mitsubishi Group	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Matalino You could just use a through-away trial account if that worries you. You are capped at 1m SP so its not like a regular trade alt would have much of an advantage. I was under the impression that you cannot use a trial account at the same time as a full account on the same computer. Can somebody confirm that they have in fact done this or know somebody personally who has done so? :)
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:47:00 - [12] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic I don't expect someone's SP to have a huge affect on the outcome of Market Wars. Having all the trade skills at 5 compared to a brand new character is a big difference or at least it should make a big difference for some. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Hanoi Hana I was under the impression that you cannot use a trial account at the same time as a full account on the same computer. Can somebody confirm that they have in fact done this or know somebody personally who has done so? :) I know for a fact that you can do this. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Hanoi Hana Mitsubishi Group	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:49:00 - [14] Edited by: Hanoi Hana on 08/11/2007 17:49:29 Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Hanoi Hana I was under the impression that you cannot use a trial account at the same time as a full account on the same computer. Can somebody confirm that they have in fact done this or know somebody personally who has done so? :) I know for a fact that you can do this. Thank you. :) I tried looking on eve-search and couldn't find anything.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:49:00 - [15] Edited by: Matalino on 08/11/2007 17:50:52 Originally by: Hanoi Hana Originally by: Matalino You could just use a through-away trial account if that worries you. You are capped at 1m SP so its not like a regular trade alt would have much of an advantage. I was under the impression that you cannot use a trial account at the same time as a full account on the same computer. Can somebody confirm that they have in fact done this or know somebody personally who has done so? :) There is no problem using them from the same computer. The only restriction is logging in to the accounts at the same time. Of course there will be one other problem with using trial accounts: you won't be able to send the ISK directly to EBANK after the competition. You would need to use a market order to transfer the ISK: then of course if you don't know how to do this, you probably shouldn't be competing. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Shadarle I'd say there should be several different competitions though. One for 1 million, another for 10, another for 100. See who is the best at each. People can easily enough provide their own funds. The trouble is that trial accounts can not transfer isk back. So the higher the starting funds... the more isk just plain lost. It's A GIRL!!!!!
tornpain	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:51:00 - [17] Edited by: tornpain on 08/11/2007 17:51:34 I know for a fact you cannot dual log a trial account with a non-trial account, which is what Hanoi was asking. You can certainly log in one, log off, log in as the other. edit: zzz i post slow
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:55:00 - [18] Yeh so restricting to trial accounts would likely result in less participation plus obviously wouldn't be workable due to the inability to do direct deposits prior/post change.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:07:00 - [19] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Yeh so restricting to trial accounts would likely result in less participation plus obviously wouldn't be workable due to the inability to do direct deposits prior/post change. I don't see why restricting it to trials hurts anything. If someone is logged on an alt they can't play their other chars on that account anyhow. So that screws over all the people who don't have tons of accounts with open slots anyhow. Making it a level playing field seems the best idea. I'd even suggest having E-Bank create all the trials themselves to be sure everyone is actually on trials. Give the accounts out right as the competition starts. For 1 day people can give up playing their main for a day... or they can log off for a bit if they need to, it's their choice. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Shadarle I'd even suggest having E-Bank create all the trials themselves to be sure everyone is actually on trials. Give the accounts out right as the competition starts. But that's against the EULA. Is it possible to send a trial account isk?
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:21:00 - [21] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic But that's against the EULA. Is it? Who cares if they delete the account in a few days, it's only meant for this one purpose anyhow. I just don't think they'd have a major problem with this, but someone could ask a GM to be sure. Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Is it possible to send a trial account isk? Yes, as far as I know. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:36:00 - [22] I see no reason to force people to use trial accounts. Just keep it as an option, by allowing people to handle the transfer of the ISK however they choose after the contest is completed: ie, all them to transfer the ISK to their main using a rigged market order after the contest is complete, then have the main transfer the ISK to EBANK, the actual earning of ISK could still be verified via the API key on the trial account. Unless we are allowing hauling, I don't see any advantage of using a paid account vs a trial account. It might make things more interesting to remove the SP limitation and place an age limit instead. Have everyone create their alt after the start time. They would be allowed 1 player donation from their main of 10M (or whatever the starting capital is). They must then choose if they want to buy skills/implants to improve their trading ability or use what they started with and keep all of the capital for trading, depending on what they think would be cost effective. This could also limit cheating as no direct trades would be allowed during the war, as they could be used to inject additional items for the alt to use or sell. Direct trade show up clearly in the wallet journal, so this would be easy to enforce. Once the contest is complete, the main would then transfer the balance ISK to EBANK. The player could then use whatever means they can/want to recover the ISK/assests from their alt. EBANK would be able to compare the amount sent by the main with the wallet balance of the alt at the time of contest completion to ensure that there is no cheating. They could also verify that no illegal direct trades or donations were made. Of course it would still be possible for someone to pick up items from a can drop, but this can be countered because everything the character has must have come from a market transaction during the time of the contest. The API key can be used to check which skills and implants the character has at the end of the contest. If they do not match the skills/implants purchased, then it is obvious that there was an illegal transfer of goods. Likewise with items: if there were more items sold than bought, obviously they were cheating. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Rock Brazen	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:46:00 - [23] I believe you can do a transfer of money if the person is in the same station as you on a trial account. Go to "guests" tab in the station and right click trade, then use the give money portion of the trade interface.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:48:00 - [24] Edited by: Matalino on 08/11/2007 18:49:46 Originally by: Rock Brazen I believe you can do a transfer of money if the person is in the same station as you on a trial account. Go to "guests" tab in the station and right click trade, then use the give money portion of the trade interface. You can send ISK to a trial account, just like any other. The only resistriction is send ISK from a trial account. BTW - They have fixed direct trades so that trial accounts can only make direct trades if they are NOT giving ISK as part of the trade. They can receive items and ISK, and can give items, but they cannot give ISK through a direct trade. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Rysith	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:27:00 - [25] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic * Market Wars dictates all wars are to take place in Jita 4-4 CNAP station Why this restriction? I know Jita is supposed to be the best place to trade, but if someone feels that they can make better profit by eg. running tech II gear out to Low/Null sec, why prevent them from doing that? Of course they may do worse than if they had stayed in Jita, but I don't see why they should be prohibited from trying. Market PvP is about nothing if not risk.
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Matalino Unless we are allowing hauling, I don't see any advantage of using a paid account vs a trial account. When you're working with a small amount of ISK, margin trading would be incredibly useful. Lowered broker fees through skills/standings would also help a bit. Main thing I can see happening if this gos ahead is a lot of people collecting 10 million free ISK and walking off with it - especially if they're encouraged to use disposable alts.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.08 20:00:00 - [27] Originally by: FastLearner Originally by: Matalino Unless we are allowing hauling, I don't see any advantage of using a paid account vs a trial account. When you're working with a small amount of ISK, margin trading would be incredibly useful. Lowered broker fees through skills/standings would also help a bit. Main thing I can see happening if this gos ahead is a lot of people collecting 10 million free ISK and walking off with it - especially if they're encouraged to use disposable alts. Well people should provide the 10 mill themselves. This is the entrance fee. Gotta turn it over if you want a chance to win the prize. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.11.08 20:04:00 - [28] Edited by: Matalino on 08/11/2007 20:06:27 Originally by: Rysith Originally by: EBANK Ricdic * Market Wars dictates all wars are to take place in Jita 4-4 CNAP station Why this restriction? I know Jita is supposed to be the best place to trade, but if someone feels that they can make better profit by eg. running tech II gear out to Low/Null sec, why prevent them from doing that? Of course they may do worse than if they had stayed in Jita, but I don't see why they should be prohibited from trying. Market PvP is about nothing if not risk. The problem with other markets is that they are easier to rig and manipulate. While it is still possible to manipluate the market in Jita, the volume of trade on most items will make this diffucult. Originally by: FastLearner Originally by: Matalino Unless we are allowing hauling, I don't see any advantage of using a paid account vs a trial account. When you're working with a small amount of ISK, margin trading would be incredibly useful. Lowered broker fees through skills/standings would also help a bit. AFAIK all of those skills can still be trained on trial accounts, it would just be a matter of weighing the cost verse the bennifits. In the case that I suggested for creating the alts at the begining of the contest, gaining standings would not be allowed as it would require injecting ISK from mission rewards which would affect the results. I understood that this was to be a contest of player skill not in-game assests, so forcing everyone to start at the same place without standings, would be more desirable than seeing what could be earned by characters with the highest possible NPC standings. We could really make thing interesting by dropping the 10M starting captial. See what people can do in a week with just 5,000 ISK, 1 unit of Trit and a DCU. Originally by: FastLearner Main thing I can see happening if this gos ahead is a lot of people collecting 10 million free ISK and walking off with it - especially if they're encouraged to use disposable alts. That is why myself and others have suggested that players front their own capital. It would limit the risk to EBANK, and could also serve as a form of enterance fee. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.08 22:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Rysith Originally by: EBANK Ricdic * Market Wars dictates all wars are to take place in Jita 4-4 CNAP station Why this restriction? I wouldn't call it the best place to trade. But it is easy to be able to audit purchases etc through one location rather than 50. Plus people trying to cheat run the risk of having the normal market kick their asses (ie set up a buy order for X units of Y, then quickly get market char to sell to this order at the risk of another player filling it before you can or vice versa)
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.08 23:26:00 - [30] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Originally by: Rysith Originally by: EBANK Ricdic * Market Wars dictates all wars are to take place in Jita 4-4 CNAP station Why this restriction? I wouldn't call it the best place to trade. But it is easy to be able to audit purchases etc through one location rather than 50. Plus people trying to cheat run the risk of having the normal market kick their asses (ie set up a buy order for X units of Y, then quickly get market char to sell to this order at the risk of another player filling it before you can or vice versa) Believe me, there are still some extremely obscure items. There's one in particular of which I'm currently the only supplier anywhere My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats

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