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Remove T1 meta item from ship invention

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moola Band Of Frogs	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:31:00 - [1] As the title says i think the removal of the T1 meta item from ship invention is well over due, with the release of T2 battleships and freighters the problem is compounded, reason being the mobile labs dont have enough storage space. Yes i know its not worth using T1 ships etc.. lets look at reasons why. 1. cost. 2. lack of higher meta items. 3. cant fit 5 ships into a mobile lab (i like to have everything for 5-10 jobs in lab, dont want to run back and forth to get a ship every time i start a job) Now because of 2,3 i think the T1 meta should be scrapped and a flat bonus to SHIP invention should be added, also the bonus should be the bonus from the highest meta item, why? compensation for putting up with this for so long. Diss cuss
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:43:00 - [2] Originally by: moola As the title says i think the removal of the T1 meta item from ship invention is well over due, with the release of T2 battleships and freighters the problem is compounded, reason being the mobile labs dont have enough storage space. Yes i know its not worth using T1 ships etc.. lets look at reasons why. 1. cost. 2. lack of higher meta items. 3. cant fit 5 ships into a mobile lab (i like to have everything for 5-10 jobs in lab, dont want to run back and forth to get a ship every time i start a job) Now because of 2,3 i think the T1 meta should be scrapped and a flat bonus to SHIP invention should be added, also the bonus should be the bonus from the highest meta item, why? compensation for putting up with this for so long. Diss cuss Never used t1 ships in invention t2 ship bpc's. Afaik, T1 ships doesn't have any meta level at all. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Danger Boy	Posted - 2007.11.08 19:46:00 - [3] When CCP brings on the t2 freighter they will need to up the space available in the labs anyway, so, problem solved.
moola Band Of Frogs	Posted - 2007.11.08 20:08:00 - [4] Yes increasing the lab space is a quick simple fix, but this wont address the lack of higher meta items, even using the highest meta prolly wont be cost effective, but the lack of higher meta is a broken design. I just feel the time is right and long in coming for a fix to these issues, it irks me that its being ignored because the masses dont use it because it is not cost effective, it might, just might be with higher meta.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:54:00 - [5] Originally by: moola Yes increasing the lab space is a quick simple fix, but this wont address the lack of higher meta items, even using the highest meta prolly wont be cost effective, but the lack of higher meta is a broken design. I just feel the time is right and long in coming for a fix to these issues, it irks me that its being ignored because the masses dont use it because it is not cost effective, it might, just might be with higher meta. There is NO META level for tech1 ships. And if you need a t1 Freighter to make a t2 one. It will be needed as a part of build it not make the bpc itself imho. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
moola Band Of Frogs	Posted - 2007.11.08 22:19:00 - [6] Ok module invention gets to use a T1 item also, except modules have multiple higher meta levels. Ship invention has one meta level item it can use, either ships are missing the higher level meta items or ship invention is not supposed to be able to use higher level meta items because the success rate will be to high. So why have T1 meta for ships if we cant get to use the higher meta's (or cost/ risk reward). Everything else in module and ship invention is the same apart from the higher level T1 meta items missing from ship invention. some ruff maths to look at mod invention success chance 50% base, max chance decryptor + best T1 meta mod = 75% success. Ship invention success chance 25% base, max chance decryptor + only T1 meta ship = 40% success. These numbers are over but its nice and round to give you an idea of what im getting at.
Kokob	Posted - 2007.11.08 23:59:00 - [7] Moola you just aren't getting it are you? Using a meta lvl 0 t1 ship in invention gives you NO benefit. Dev confirmed that in this forum section about 1 or so months ago. So if you're using it for invention and then complaining about the costs... well you're stupid. Don't use the t1 item in invention, as it does not give you a benefit other than increasing your costs.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Kokob Using a meta lvl 0 t1 ship in invention gives you NO benefit. Dev confirmed that in this forum section about 1 or so months ago. link please. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:53:00 - [9] Originally by: Kokob Moola you just aren't getting it are you? Using a meta lvl 0 t1 ship in invention gives you NO benefit. Dev confirmed that in this forum section about 1 or so months ago. So if you're using it for invention and then complaining about the costs... well you're stupid. Don't use the t1 item in invention, as it does not give you a benefit other than increasing your costs. Unless there was another dev comment that's not what he said. He suggested that it didn't give 'very much' benefit, but the suggestion was that it gave some. (little enough that you wouldn't bother for cruisers and bigger etc). The effect is supposed to be dramatic for higher level meta modules, but it wasn't said that it had 'no' effect for ships.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:23:00 - [10] Originally by: moola Now because of 2,3 i think the T1 meta should be scrapped and a flat bonus to SHIP invention should be added, also the bonus should be the bonus from the highest meta item, why? compensation for putting up with this for so long. You miss the point. The reason that the base chance for ship invention is half that of module invention is that IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD! I am very sure that they also factored in the fact that there are no meta items in for ship invention, and that the resulting odds was what they where aiming for. So, sorry, no bonus. You are stuck witht he crappy odds be course thats the way it was balanced to be. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
moola Band Of Frogs	Posted - 2007.11.09 10:24:00 - [11] Edited by: moola on 09/11/2007 10:25:06 Kokob and everyone else that cant read, i know adding meta item to ships has little or no effect. The only time iv ever used T1 items with invention was WAY back when core/RP exchange rate was changed. This was about 2 weeks before the formula thread came out. Qual thanks for a decent answer, and i DO GET IT in my second post (edit: damm it was the third post) i say as much, thinking about it im sure mobile bubbles are missing meta too. My real point is we are missing a higher bonus to ship invention either thru capping invention or poor implementation of meta item bonus, and the fact that everyone else seems to be happy about this because its not worth the isk/risk/reward. Ammo and drone invention needs looked at too, but thats an other thread.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:19:00 - [12] Originally by: moola Edited by: moola on 09/11/2007 10:25:06 Kokob and everyone else that cant read, i know adding meta item to ships has little or no effect. The only time iv ever used T1 items with invention was WAY back when core/RP exchange rate was changed. This was about 2 weeks before the formula thread came out. Qual thanks for a decent answer, and i DO GET IT in my second post (edit: damm it was the third post) i say as much, thinking about it im sure mobile bubbles are missing meta too. My real point is we are missing a higher bonus to ship invention either thru capping invention or poor implementation of meta item bonus, and the fact that everyone else seems to be happy about this because its not worth the isk/risk/reward. Ammo and drone invention needs looked at too, but thats an other thread. Invention is a way to keep prices down. It's not supposed to make everything you can invent profitable for the purpose of selling what you invent. This seem to work good too, as if any t2 ship/module start climb in price, inventors will jump onto the bandwagoon. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Twobits PieCake	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:06:00 - [13] imho this thread is bad, kbyetnx
Trak Cranker Vogon Deconstruction Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.10 02:11:00 - [14] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 10/11/2007 02:11:40 not sure moola understands that ship invention has a lower base chance from the getgo - and even if you had a higher meta level item available, there is no chance in hell that the added chance would offset the cost. And more importantly - moola needs to clarify what the reasoning behind his demand is - apart from him wanting better chances. Why ask CCP to remove something that you yourself can avoid adding? Its borderline insano talk.
moola Band Of Frogs	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:14:00 - [15] It was suppose to show a 25% increase in mods and 15% increase in ships. Yes these numbers are made up but not that far from the truth, page 13 of formula thread kazuo states he thinks a meta lvl 4 item might add about 10% increase in chance. "Meta level 4 items seem to have a very pronounced effect: Runs: 18 Successes: 17 Failures: 1 Decryptor: none Meta-level: 4 Datacore multiplier: 2 Skills: 3/4/3 (Encr/sci/sci) If this was the formula used to determine the outcome, Quote:skill(1+((1%level)(1+(0.5%level))(1+(0.5%level))) decryptor * base item (1+5%*meta) then there was only a 1 in 8500 chance of this streak occurring. However, if the meta level bonus was 10% instead of 5% (resulting in a maximum possible chance of 66.19% before decryptors, so this doesn't cause any anomalies when combined with the effects of the 1.3x decryptor) then the chance of such a streak would have been 1 in 183; over 40 times more likely to have happened." I was pointing out that with higher meta for ships we would have a better chance, yes i know its prolly still not going to be worth using a ship ( i think frigs and maybe cruisers would work), but we will never know as we cant add higher meta. Yes im insane, i want a bonus to ship invention because i think we are missing about 7.5% possible bonus to success IF we could add higher meta. There have been mods without higher meta when invention was first introduced, they got higher meta released later in a patch (shield power relays are one example), im sure mobile bubbles are still missing higher meta. Here are the replys so far, ship invention is suppose to be hard, you dont have to use a T1 ship u nub its not worth it, its capped thats why there is no higher meta.
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.10 13:45:00 - [16] Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 10/11/2007 13:45:52 I think your looking too deeply into it. For a tech 1 ship, there are no named versions, only different "tiered" versions but not named ships. For a tech 2 ship...well, its a tech 2 ship. The only exception I can think of is faction ships, but using a faction ship to invent a t2 ship would hardly be economic. At the end of the day nothing exists because nothing exists and if something did exist the game mechanic of ship invention would probably be changed to give the same chance spread we see now. So in summary, you have no meta items to use for ship invention because there are no meta items for ship invention ps. and your thread title makes no sense.
Artmedis Valben Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2007.11.15 02:14:00 - [17] I would suggest that RDbs could be used in every invention job, that they confer a bonus (say 5% increase to your success percentage) and determine the output choice if there is more than one possible outcome. (5% increased chance is an increase from 20% to 21% success rate.) The faction ships could conceivably be used for T3 ship invention if one was truly insane :) or the T3 ships really expensive and in high demand... Lots of items also have no higher than meta level 0 item. All drones, all ammo, cloaks, bubbles, and of course ships. If the item in question adds less than 1-2% to the cost of each attempt I say use a T1 item as base item. For anything expensive its counterproductive to use T1 as base item. ___________________________________________ Selling PERFECT PRINTS of all seeded T1 BPOs. Complete T1 BPC set

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