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Quebber Caldari Beets and Gravy Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.12 11:59:00 - [1] Hi, now i dont really want this to turn into a flame fest, but i just wanted to see what the general consensus was on suicide ganking in empire space was. Now ive never been suicide ganked, or have attemped to suicide gank anyone else, so im purely coming from an observational position. Basically though, i dont particually like the idea of suicide ganking, not because you lose your stuff, but because its kind of a loop-hole, and even though allowed by CCP, I believe it is kind of, in a way, an exploit (in my eyes). The ganker loses his ship yes, but gains a lot more in the long run. Therefore there is no real deterrent, perhaps the guy who was ganked decides to war dec, but tbh it is very unlikely whether similar economic damage can be caused, and a section of the game which is supposed to be no pvp (unless at war, or flagged) is not really none pvp. Perhaps it is also an idea to point out even though suicide ganking does happen that newbies are safe, as they usually dont have anything worth stealing. So does suicide ganking matter? As it only usually damages people who have played for a while? Or is it inherently damaging to eve and a loop-hole? So I was wondering if we could discuss the pro's and con's of empire suicide ganking?
Lord TYMAN	Posted - 2007.11.12 12:04:00 - [2] Yay another suicide thread. Got expensive items? Fit a tank! NEXT!
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.12 12:22:00 - [3] Originally by: Quebber Hi, now i dont really want this to turn into a flame fest, but i just wanted to see what the general consensus was on suicide ganking in empire space was. Now ive never been suicide ganked, or have attemped to suicide gank anyone else, so im purely coming from an observational position. Basically though, i dont particually like the idea of suicide ganking, not because you lose your stuff, but because its kind of a loop-hole, and even though allowed by CCP, I believe it is kind of, in a way, an exploit (in my eyes). The ganker loses his ship yes, but gains a lot more in the long run. Therefore there is no real deterrent, perhaps the guy who was ganked decides to war dec, but tbh it is very unlikely whether similar economic damage can be caused, and a section of the game which is supposed to be no pvp (unless at war, or flagged) is not really none pvp. Perhaps it is also an idea to point out even though suicide ganking does happen that newbies are safe, as they usually dont have anything worth stealing. So does suicide ganking matter? As it only usually damages people who have played for a while? Or is it inherently damaging to eve and a loop-hole? So I was wondering if we could discuss the pro's and con's of empire suicide ganking? So mission running is an exploit too in your eyes? You lose some ships on the way but in the long run you gain more from it. Same for every other way of making ISK. Piracy... you lose ships yes, hopefully you gain more in the long run. People need to learn how to use their brain instead of whining to make cpp think for them.
animal man Gallente Cursed Souls Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.12 12:22:00 - [4] I think its all fair game, end of the day the people that get blown up are either afking or not paying attention. If your thick enough to auto-pilot your way to jita with 500mil in your boot, you deserve to be blown up. Its not that hard to stay alive!
Rellik B00n Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:02:00 - [5] Originally by: Lord TYMAN Got expensive items? Fit a tank! NEXT!
Lord Bleu MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:29:00 - [6] Well the way I see it is this.... Firstly I'm no carebear and I've spent a lot of time killing low sec killing and empire war target killing whilst in the Privateer Alliance but I really dont like the suicide ganking model. I think any MMO should provide a choice between PVE and PVP. Now in eve there is huge scope to PVP. Low sec, Wardecs, and of course 0.0. Before entering into any of these mechanics the player has a choice. This also includes war decs becuase when a player creates a corp s/he knows it can be war dec'd so choice is there. Members of a war dec'd corp can simply remove themselves from the corp and join a noob corp if they dont wish pvp. So again, choice. A pilot wishing to risk low sec to sell his wares for more profit can 'chose' to do so and subscribes to the pvp aspect of the game. Now again my personal view is that in eve, and in all other MMO's there should be a safe zone for those who dont wish pvp and in eve this should be empire. That said, I really think CCP should make it more tempting for players to enter low sec, but again the player should be able to chose. Oh, that and the fact I haul alot of stuff in Empire with my alt
Quebber Caldari Beets and Gravy Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Grunanca So mission running is an exploit too in your eyes? You lose some ships on the way but in the long run you gain more from it. Same for every other way of making ISK. Piracy... you lose ships yes, hopefully you gain more in the long run. People need to learn how to use their brain instead of whining to make cpp think for them. No obviously mission running isnt because its vs NPC's, whilest suicide ganking is pvp in an area which is supposed to be none pvp unless ur at war, or flagged... and come on lets not troll the topic, i was just interested in others views...
Mekk Azal November Night Industries	Posted - 2007.11.12 13:59:00 - [8] I think its fair as long as it doesnt happen to me, then I'll probebly do a fancy post about it which actually is a whine.
Sorted Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:05:00 - [9] The gankers burn out their security status and have to spend not only a substansial amount of time scanning but also working off there sec penalities if they want to turn it into a full time profession. Depending on their setups they have to contend with concord, gate guns, loot thiefs and the "cargo" popping, coupled with the fast moving inties, nearly intsa alinging transports and the fact that your never sure if the prints are BPCs/BPOs. You can be "working" for a good while before you get lucky and you spot some guy AFK in a frig moving billions. For anyone planning ot go -10 dropping to -5 by highsec ganking is a must imo. BUT its easy to avoid: BPOs? Fast frig, inty shuttle - NO AUTOPILOT Datacores?Faction/Officer mods to big for the above? - Double tanked cruiser/BS. Passive preferd incase of blackscreen. -NO AUTOPILOT Huge ammount of Minerals? Transport (T2 hauler) Tanked to the teeth and NO AUTOPILOT Even bigger ammout of stuff? Frieghter move in runs over under 2 Billion, take multiple runs NO AUTOPILOT. OR time is money etc etc get a HG Slave set, Hardwirings for Hull/Armor ammout and get an damnation as your squad commander runnning full Armor gang links and remote reppers, a Caldari Fleet command ship in wing command running full shield gang mods running remote reppers (OK so miminalising risk moving 10+ Billion seems like hard work, but so is getting 40 pilots in BS's to take down a frighter pilot, getting another frieghter to scoop it (Who you all agree on and trust) and deviding what doesnt expolode -IF you are sucessful) Meh - ganking is viable, its like culling a herd - if your AFK in a frig with multiple billions in cargo then it must be a drop in the ocean to you - OR you just aint that bright/clued-up. You could look on the bright side- you ONLY lost a few billion and you learned/adapted then rather than a few dozen billion in the future. (thank the ganker for helping you learn the hard way lol) So - In Smmmary: Gankers: Pros You can get "rich" when the right target comes along and it goes off without a hitch Cons Time consuming while scanning Loot Thieves Risk of it all going pop Tarnished Reputation Time consuming cleaning your sec Victims Pros Its VERY easy to aviod COMPLETELY (in most cases) if you are active/prepared Cons If you arent active/prepared and all your eggs are in one untanked basket while your ReadingABook/HavingSomeFood/HavingSomeEmergencyIRL/AsleepAtTheKeyboard then it can be potentialy gaming "breaking". You become so completly demoralised that its /wrists time! AND OP: ITS NOT AN EXPLOIT (in CCPs eyes) May as well say gate camping lowsec with scouts is an exploit as its "low risk". Newbies have nothing worth taking - so they are safe, expeierenced players with ISK should know better, and can always war dec for revenge- they also have kill rights: BUT that leads us onto two other topics; Kill rights should be Tradable - like a bounty hunting contract NPC Corp huggers: Players should be moved to a war deccable NPC run corp 44 Days after birth. and told to create their own corp to avoid PRIVS war deccing them all at once. But I am taking it off topic: so back to the OP: Yarrrr! lazy pilots are fair game! Think before undocking!
Doppler Shift Red 42 Infinite Innovation	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Quebber suicide ganking is pvp in an area which is supposed to be none pvp unless ur at war, or flagged... and come on lets not troll the topic, i was just interested in others views... The closest thing to "non-pvp" in Eve is when you're docked in a station. No one said "high security" was "complete security." Even then, you'd better not spend any ISK or you may find yourself engaging in a different flavor of pvp. --- This is what's left of my signatu...[siggienerf][/siggienerf]
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Lord Bleu Well the way I see it is this.... Firstly I'm no carebear and I've spent a lot of time killing low sec killing and empire war target killing whilst in the Privateer Alliance but I really dont like the suicide ganking model. I think any MMO should provide a choice between PVE and PVP. Now in eve there is huge scope to PVP. Low sec, Wardecs, and of course 0.0. Before entering into any of these mechanics the player has a choice. This also includes war decs becuase when a player creates a corp s/he knows it can be war dec'd so choice is there. Members of a war dec'd corp can simply remove themselves from the corp and join a noob corp if they dont wish pvp. So again, choice. A pilot wishing to risk low sec to sell his wares for more profit can 'chose' to do so and subscribes to the pvp aspect of the game. Now again my personal view is that in eve, and in all other MMO's there should be a safe zone for those who dont wish pvp and in eve this should be empire. That said, I really think CCP should make it more tempting for players to enter low sec, but again the player should be able to chose. Oh, that and the fact I haul alot of stuff in Empire with my alt Well, if being war decced is a choice for you, I would also saying to go afk in a ship full of valuables would be your own choice. Only ships you are gonna have a chance to catch and kill in high sec is a freighter if the pilot is at the keybard and not a complete ******.
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Quebber Originally by: Grunanca So mission running is an exploit too in your eyes? You lose some ships on the way but in the long run you gain more from it. Same for every other way of making ISK. Piracy... you lose ships yes, hopefully you gain more in the long run. People need to learn how to use their brain instead of whining to make cpp think for them. No obviously mission running isnt because its vs NPC's, whilest suicide ganking is pvp in an area which is supposed to be none pvp unless ur at war, or flagged... and come on lets not troll the topic, i was just interested in others views... Seriously, where did CCP state that you are only SUPPOSED to pvp through war og flagging? If that was how the game was supposed to be, why would we even be able to target people in high sec?
Tri Warrior	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:06:00 - [13] Edited by: Tri Warrior on 12/11/2007 15:07:31 There is ways too avoid it. Its your own fault if you dont use protection. If you get aids for not wearing a condom would you come to these forums and whine at CCP too create a cure? gtfo.
Tiesto Ipok Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:28:00 - [14] yAwN!!!11 one ------------------------------------------- Hi Spitzerr You are receiving this notice to inform you that your posting privileges have now been permanently terminated.
Lord Bleu MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Grunanca Originally by: Lord Bleu Stuff...quote] Well, if being war decced is a choice for you, I would also saying to go afk in a ship full of valuables would be your own choice. Your missing my point. I'm saying that personally I think the game should give the player a choice in terms of pvp. Being war decd = pvp but the player has a choice to pull out of the pvp if he really wants to. Hauling goods in empire and being attacked = no choice. There is absolutely nothing the victim can do to avoid this. Now ok, it's the way it is, I'm just saying personally I'd prefer it if players couldnt attack other players in Empire without them being at war. Let the PVP'ers PVP and the PVE'ers PVE IMO. Secondly about autopilot. Some people seem to think if a player is using autopilot they deserve to be ganked. I say, what the hell is autopilot for? The eve universe is big, hauling goods isnt exactly exciting game play. Anyone who thinks autopilots need ganged, I'd ask them to jump 30+ gates in a freighter
Zachariuz	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Lord Bleu Well the way I see it is this.... Firstly I'm no carebear and I've spent a lot of time killing low sec killing and empire war target killing whilst in the Privateer Alliance but I really dont like the suicide ganking model. I think any MMO should provide a choice between PVE and PVP. Now in eve there is huge scope to PVP. Low sec, Wardecs, and of course 0.0. Before entering into any of these mechanics the player has a choice. This also includes war decs becuase when a player creates a corp s/he knows it can be war dec'd so choice is there. Members of a war dec'd corp can simply remove themselves from the corp and join a noob corp if they dont wish pvp. So again, choice. A pilot wishing to risk low sec to sell his wares for more profit can 'chose' to do so and subscribes to the pvp aspect of the game. Now again my personal view is that in eve, and in all other MMO's there should be a safe zone for those who dont wish pvp and in eve this should be empire. That said, I really think CCP should make it more tempting for players to enter low sec, but again the player should be able to chose. Oh, that and the fact I haul alot of stuff in Empire with my alt You think that yes and thats the way YOU see it. But what about CCP? ""Loosing ships, items, and getting podded, are all a part of EVE. "" ""ò Don't play the game in AFK mode. This game is not designed with this kind of playing style in mind and you should NEVER consider your ship and character safe while being away from your computer."" ""Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses. Like in the real world, law enforcers often arrive too late at the scene of the crime, and even though they able to punish the criminal, they can't always prevent the crime."" "" Originally by: CCP Wrangler, EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for."" What you think isnt really important when it comes to this matter. EvE is a harsh world. Live with it. Or maybe kitty online suits you better?
Kamea Night	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:05:00 - [17] better tank/ nano/ dont afk ..... blah blah put your stuff in secure containers and haul it in something with 120k structure or if they catch you they will kill you (use a covert if its small and expensive still chance of being popped undocking) I had 3 brutix go for my drake in high sec with good resists and 22k shields they almost hit armor last time I'll ever transport without a secure container even if its one bp. CCP needs to put in a shielded cargo hold to prevent scanners. I wouldn't be suprised to see the next post of "20 brutix's killed my Charon"
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.12 19:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Kamea Night better tank/ nano/ dont afk ..... blah blah put your stuff in secure containers and haul it in something with 120k structure or if they catch you they will kill you (use a covert if its small and expensive still chance of being popped undocking) I had 3 brutix go for my drake in high sec with good resists and 22k shields they almost hit armor last time I'll ever transport without a secure container even if its one bp. CCP needs to put in a shielded cargo hold to prevent scanners. I wouldn't be suprised to see the next post of "20 brutix's killed my Charon" I you are not afk and havent told anyone where you are going, how would your opponent then know your drake was worth attacking? Warp to zero almost removes the risk of getting ganked. Flying afk in like putting a big "shoot me" sign on your ship. Had a maelstrom flying through low sec afk yesterday, after seeing him warp to a gate, i warped to zero and could bump him a couple of times till my friends arrived to kill and pod him. This game was never ever supposed to be played afk, and if you play afk, dont blame CCP for your stupidity.
littlechaoz2	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:12:00 - [19] Edited by: littlechaoz2 on 12/11/2007 20:13:14 Originally by: Lord Bleu Originally by: Grunanca Originally by: Lord Bleu Stuff... Well, if being war decced is a choice for you, I would also saying to go afk in a ship full of valuables would be your own choice. Your missing my point. I'm saying that personally I think the game should give the player a choice in terms of pvp. Being war decd = pvp but the player has a choice to pull out of the pvp if he really wants to. Hauling goods in empire and being attacked = no choice. There is absolutely nothing the victim can do to avoid this. Now ok, it's the way it is, I'm just saying personally I'd prefer it if players couldnt attack other players in Empire without them being at war. Let the PVP'ers PVP and the PVE'ers PVE IMO. Secondly about autopilot. Some people seem to think if a player is using autopilot they deserve to be ganked. I say, what the hell is autopilot for? The eve universe is big, hauling goods isnt exactly exciting game play. Anyone who thinks autopilots need ganged, I'd ask them to jump 30+ gates in a freighter oh u have a choice about being ganked in empire, if u gotta go afk, dock up, very few systems in empire DONT have stations, and theres plenty the victim can do, like not undocking, thats a choice too, so u see? plenty of choices made, and if u want a choice between PVE and PVP, WoW has that, this isn't WoW, and for that im very happy. If u dont wanna die, don't undock, if u cant afford to lose it don't fly it. If u cant replace it, don't use it. Space is a cold dark place, if u dont like how cold and dark it is, don't undock, and stay in ur nice warm hanger. sum1 has a quote as their signature saying something about "EvE isn't designed to be a cold, dark place. It IS a cold, dark place." or something along those lines. This game is designed for pure PVP, with PVE inside it, not PVE with PVP inside it.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.12 21:04:00 - [20] I would love to see one of two things: #1 A module that greatly increases the chance of your cargo to get destroyed when the ship blows. It could be called "Selfdestruct rigged Cargohold" and as far as I care it could be any module slot. #2 Probably the better choise but what the hell, the same as above but its a rig. The reason for the above is that I dont really mind getting attacked, nor do I mind loosing a ship and cargo, I have more than enough isk to cover any haul I would be carrying but I do mind the fact that the ganker benefits. Ganking is fine but I should have a countermeasure to limit their gain.
William DeMeo Gallente the united	Posted - 2007.11.12 21:08:00 - [21] It's good and it needs to continue. Highsec is not supposed to be non pvp, why do you think you can shoot at people in highsec? Yarr
Marr Kedd	Posted - 2007.11.12 21:22:00 - [22] My only gripe about suicide ganking is people getting insurance payouts for it. Other than that, I think the fact that suicide ganking is allowed actually makes for a better game play experience. It forces me to learn and adapt, and even though I take necessary precautions, I never know when I might encounter a ganker who is fueled more by alcohol than economic sense. Keeps travel from being boring it does.
Tai Paktu Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Sorted Edited by: Sorted on 12/11/2007 14:08:36 NO AUTOPILOT This. The moniker "high sec" is misleading. Open your map. Select show ships destroyed in the last hour. Good odds that the brightest dot on there is Jita. This is an extreme example because everyone knows how nuts Jita can be with suicide. However, it goes to show how often this kind of things happens. High sec space is not a green zone. It's not secure. It's more-secure. The only thing game mechanics guarantee, or are meant to guarantee, in anything above 0.5 is a CONCORD response. I know people usually hate RL references but this is one of those things that adds depth to EVE that other MMOs miss. It opens up a new career path with new risks and rewards, inline with the sandbox mentality of the design. For people who don't like the traditional methods, there's always crimes like this to committ. I'm not saying it's not funny for us to read about on the forums or that it doesn't suck for the dude a few threads back who lost his Nidhoggur BPO. But that's just his own fault. Autopilot is bad, mmkay. Essentially if you're not in a ship that can't tank the alpha (or more depending what sec status the system you're travelling is) of multiple BS', you've got no reason to be AFK autopiloting, when the bulk of ganks happen. It's fairly easy to avoid them. Not to say a dedicated ganker won't make it happen but it can be made extremely difficult and costly for them. The only thing about suicide ganking that I believe has been classed an exploit or anything against the EULA is recycling accounts to avoid the sec status hits of your ganker. Not 100% on that but pretty sure so don't flame for it being wrong.
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Marr Kedd My only gripe about suicide ganking is people getting insurance payouts for it. Other than that, I think the fact that suicide ganking is allowed actually makes for a better game play experience. It forces me to learn and adapt, and even though I take necessary precautions, I never know when I might encounter a ganker who is fueled more by alcohol than economic sense. Keeps travel from being boring it does. Gotta agree on insurance thing. Would have kept me from ganking 2 covert ops frigs laying afk in rens if risk was 9 mil instead of 3. Would however still have killed another guy with a vagabond in the cargo
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Kamea Night better tank/ nano/ dont afk ..... blah blah put your stuff in secure containers and haul it in something with 120k structure or if they catch you they will kill you (use a covert if its small and expensive still chance of being popped undocking) I had 3 brutix go for my drake in high sec with good resists and 22k shields they almost hit armor last time I'll ever transport without a secure container even if its one bp. CCP needs to put in a shielded cargo hold to prevent scanners. I wouldn't be suprised to see the next post of "20 brutix's killed my Charon" Tanking it up and then going afk is a horrible way to avoid suicide ganking. You never know if someone can pull together the 5 bs needed to kill you. Don't be afk, haul with a poly rigged blockade runner. You will warp as fast as a shuttle and its literally impossible to gank you, let alone scanning.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:06:00 - [26] you dont walk down the street with a box full of gold you use an armored car you dont fly a badger with a cargo full of riches you use a transport ship (like a blockade runner, those things are fast), or inty, or a battleship
Geren Basbar Helios Incorporated Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:42:00 - [27] Empire ganking is not unbalanced. It's very difficult to pull off, and requires time to "up" your security status and such. CONCORD are not meant to protect you. Remember (to quote a slightly changed rl saying): When seconds count, CONCORD are minutes away!
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:55:00 - [28] Ok, this would be great... one guy gets gnaked in highsec at a gate... concord never shows up and the guns on the gate don't fire Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
Ulstan Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:31:00 - [29] The only problem with suicide ganking is that the gankers receive insurance payouts. Insurance should not be paid on ships destroyed by concorde, obviously. Other than that, the risk/reward are not far out of line, as long as people fly intelligently.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I remember my days of suicide ganking... the insurance really ****es you carebears off, doesnt it? You don't have to be a carebear to disaprove with that mechanic. I think it's pretty borked and should be looked into.

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