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Fr33sTyLe	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:13:00 - [1] I have to admit, from time to time having someone basically camping a market station to undercut anyone who undercuts them is pretty annoying sometimes, especially when someone selling 200 of an item keeps undercutting a guy trying to sell 1 item for some easy Isk. So my thanks goes to whoever the 3 guys where that got into an undercutting war with me in Jita. Thank you. I made a ridiculous undercut of a certain item (of my 1 item) and they all met that cut to have the item sell at approx 3% above COST. when they all undercut me I preceeded to buy all of thier stock and resell it making a tidy profit of 1.2b. so my thanks. really appreciate it.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:16:00 - [2] Originally by: Fr33sTyLe when they all undercut me I preceeded to buy all of thier stock and resell it making a tidy profit of 1.2b. Congrats Originally by: Fr33sTyLe I made a ridiculous undercut of a certain item (of my 1 item) and they all met that cut to have the item sell at approx 3% above COST. so my thanks. really appreciate it. You presume they didn't make 100+% of what they intended to make. Just because you found 1.2 billion more on the table doesn't mean they lost anything. You presume their costs and thus assume a few things. Imho, just be happy you capped the opportunity. Hubris goeth before the fall. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:25:00 - [3] I can see people being that dumb in Jita. Grapevine: Jita turns peoples into zombies! Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Ramblin Man I can see people being that dumb in Jita. And there is that too. QFT. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Calgorac The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:34:00 - [5] hmm Ive been known to buy out the 1 and 2 item sell orders to make mine go faster... but lower my price over a 1 or 2 item order? I dont think so :) null About CCMS
Fabricati Diem Burleigh and Strong	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Shar Tegral You presume they didn't make 100+% of what they intended to make. OP doesn't state anything about what he presumes. Originally by: Shar Tegral Just because you found 1.2 billion more on the table doesn't mean they lost anything. Arguably, it means they collectively lost 1.2b. Originally by: Shar Tegral Imho, just be happy you capped the opportunity. Hubris goeth before the fall. Agreed; been there my share of times.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.14 20:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Fabricati Diem Originally by: Shar Tegral Just because you found 1.2 billion more on the table doesn't mean they lost anything. Arguably, it means they collectively lost 1.2b. No, it means they collectively could have made 1.2b more than they actually did. That's not the same as losing 1.2b. The OP made the 1.2b because he chose to put the time, isk and intelligence in required to do so, and the others did not. The market is just like everything else - the more effort and skill you put into it, the better your returns. Everyone has a limited amount of time which they can spend playing the game. They may not prioritize their time on their market activities as much as the OP, or simply do not have as much time available overall. That does not necessarily mean there is anything inherently wrong in what they are doing, nor does it prevent them from operating a perfectly profitable business. All it does is prevent them from realizing the extra benefits the further time investment would have yielded. Which is no different from any other profession. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.11.14 20:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Fr33sTyLe when they all undercut me I preceeded to buy all of thier stock and resell it making a tidy profit of 1.2b. Congrats Originally by: Fr33sTyLe I made a ridiculous undercut of a certain item (of my 1 item) and they all met that cut to have the item sell at approx 3% above COST. so my thanks. really appreciate it. You presume they didn't make 100+% of what they intended to make. Just because you found 1.2 billion more on the table doesn't mean they lost anything. You presume their costs and thus assume a few things. Imho, just be happy you capped the opportunity. Hubris goeth before the fall. he just made 1.2b whereas he would've made how much with the single item? you presume anyone gives a ** about your uppity arrogant bull**. they don't. solid liquid
Idrift Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.14 20:14:00 - [9] I've taken advantage of that before myself, though they didn't need any help from me driving the price down. You made out better then I ever have though so my hats off to you.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.14 21:19:00 - [10] So this was mostly an epeen flex thread, correct? Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.14 21:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd he just made 1.2b whereas he would've made how much with the single item? you presume anyone gives a ** about your uppity arrogant bull. they don't. Thank Ezoran! I noticed you had returned from a short vacation and I though to myself, "Bah, why turn on grease monkey to ignore him." But seeing how you can't help but flame away I'll turn it back and consider my lesson learned. It's A GIRL!!!!!**
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.14 22:00:00 - [12] market bots are more common than you think good job beating them ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Fitz VonHeise The New Order. United Connection's	Posted - 2007.11.14 22:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Calgorac hmm Ive been known to buy out the 1 and 2 item sell orders to make mine go faster... but lower my price over a 1 or 2 item order? I dont think so :) Exactly! I have a price that I will not go below... and if they do I buy all there stuff and raise my price back to where it was. (even if they have 50 of them) Services I Provide: Caldari Factional Standing Increase ò Alliance Creation ò The Thieves Of EvE ò My Links
tornpain	Posted - 2007.11.14 23:00:00 - [14] The real question is how long will it take you to liquidate that 1.2bil of stock? More than a few days and you lose, IMO.
Cookie Snakeoil Industries Ltd.	Posted - 2007.11.14 23:20:00 - [15] what happens in Jita, stays in Jita
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.14 23:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Matthew No, it means they collectively could have made 1.2b more than they actually did. That's not the same as losing 1.2b. Yes actually, it is the same. Whether or not they're OK with losing that much to make a faster sale is not relevant. Who needs the Nikkei when there's EBay? Lag? GTFOOJ!
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.11.15 02:44:00 - [17] Originally by: SonOfAGhost Originally by: Matthew No, it means they collectively could have made 1.2b more than they actually did. That's not the same as losing 1.2b. Yes actually, it is the same. Whether or not they're OK with losing that much to make a faster sale is not relevant. Strange as it may seem, he is actually right. The problem with that is that pure profit only counts when it takes ZERO effort to make. The way the eve GUI, and eve in general is set up, there is no such thing as zero effort. Even selling to buy orders is extremely annoying. And i count brain leaking through my nose as opportunity cost... Time spent doing something is time not spent doing something else. So there is no way to actually know how much someone lost /made without knowing everything about him. For example, he could have alttabbed to do some daytrading with $100m or so, then using profits to buy GTC...
Fabricati Diem Burleigh and Strong	Posted - 2007.11.15 03:27:00 - [18] Random, un-specific replies: Opportunity cost is a fairly well established economic concept. Whether anyone agrees with it or not, to say it is an arguable point is an accurate statement. While the cost to the original sellers is not known, the market average of the raw materials is a fair way to value their worth. Considering that the original sellers were competing intensely with each other prior to the buyout, it is entirely possible the OP actually put less effort into the operation than they did. Mining macros are easily found with a simple interwebs search. There is a demand, and profit to be made off the supply. Suppliers want to profit, so they advertise. Considering the profit that could be made off a viable market macro, there is a greater theoretical demand than for mining macros. Where are they then? Search google for mining macros (I do not advocate their use at all and may you be struck with irritable bowel syndrome if you do use them), search google for market macros and then compare the results. The second search pretty much returns mining macros. Just saying, if they were out there, they would likely be advertised.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.15 09:41:00 - [19] Originally by: SonOfAGhost Originally by: Matthew No, it means they collectively could have made 1.2b more than they actually did. That's not the same as losing 1.2b. Yes actually, it is the same. Whether or not they're OK with losing that much to make a faster sale is not relevant. Yes, it is relevant. The speed of sale will have an impact on their oppourtunity costs. If by releasing the money tied up in that stock quickly they can invest it in something else and make more than 1.2b (or achieve something that is worth more than 1.2b to them, which could be as simple as getting enough isk/mercenaries for ships to successfully defend a nice expensive POS, or any one of a number of other situations), then they did exactly the right thing by selling low and fast. Besides, choosing not to take advantage of an opporutunity to gain is not the same as making a loss. Or if you really like the word loss, we can call it an oppourtunity loss, to differentiate it from an actual loss. Originally by: Fabricati Diem Opportunity cost is a fairly well established economic concept. Whether anyone agrees with it or not, to say it is an arguable point is an accurate statement. While the cost to the original sellers is not known, the market average of the raw materials is a fair way to value their worth. This is one of the problems I have with resellers crowing about making money off "stupid" producers/sellers. The resellers value something purely by it's original creation cost, and then berate the other sellers for the oppourtunity loss shown by the resellers own profit. What this fails to take into account is the oppourtunity costs of the time invested playing the market (both in directly manipulating orders and building up sufficient knowledge to mitigate the risk of getting things wrong), and of holding the stock for the time required to make that reselling profit. I certainly know with my own experience, it can be more beneficial (for me) to shift a lot of different products with only average market knowledge, than to try and eke every last percent out of a single market. Personally, I treat resellers as market consultants. They spend the time and take the risks necessary to test the limits of the market clearing price, and provide me with demand and price indicators. In return, I "pay" them with the oppourtunity loss that they get to claim as profit. Kinda like market mecenaries. The real beauty of this system is that I need to spend no time hiring them or deciding which markets they should focus on, the market and the resellers themselves decide where they are needed, and picking up the flags of the extra demand from their buyouts, and the existance of their sell orders, is no more work than I would do otherwise. Yes, it's not optimal if all that exists is the market, but as a total balance of activities, it's the best choice for me. Originally by: Fabricati Diem Considering that the original sellers were competing intensely with each other prior to the buyout, it is entirely possible the OP actually put less effort into the operation than they did. In terms of pure sitting there clicking effort, you may be right. However, the OP would still have put in a considerable amount. Although the OP does not reveal how much isk he had to put into buying that stock, given he made 1.2bil, it's a fair assumption that it was a sizeable investment. We also have no idea how long that investment was tied up in the stock for. The investment was also a risk, as he was basically gambling that he knew the true market clearing price of the good better than the others did - if he counts that risk as mitigated by his superior market knowledge, then you have to factor in a share of the time taken to acquire and maintain that knowledge into the time put into this venture. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.15 10:07:00 - [20] Well for myself I think the op shot himself in the foot with his hubris. This technique, not unknown, is now here for everyone to look at. Some successes are better off not heard of just reaped. As to pure profit, I have a t2 item that I produce. Market cost of the materials, if I purchase off the market, totals at roughly 50K per unit. The market moves the product at roughly 300K - 400K per unit going down as far as 225K. Some weeks, for reasons varia, it can shoot close to 500K. If I let someone drive the price down to 200K per unit and he then buys it all up... fine. I'm okay with that. While people will point to "opportunity cost" as a thing that must be considered they deny the reality of the word opportunity. Until the op made his move, the opportunity did not exist and thus the "opportunity cost" was negligible in this case. As to pure profit: While it may have cost someone something to build a product... if they get ganked it is pure profit to the person selling the item. Lol, rampant theft does not usually fall into the nice neat economic equations that many like to toss around here. (Not saying it doesn't occur in rl... ...) So, I congratulate the OP for grabbing an opportunity and capping it. It was well played to his benefit. However the "game" does not mean that because he benefited someone else automatically lost. They just didn't win as much. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Confuzer PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.11.15 12:10:00 - [21] Congratz... it is a risk buying the market at that prices, so you deserved it. I see lots of those deals but are just too scared cus it's possible them items will come right back on the market with the same price from the same guys. That those guys had such haste selling their items was stupid. Haste costs you alot of ISK. I put my stuff on the market and let it be there for 6 months if I have to. If my trade slots are full I just use another account. This way I block alot of this kind of undercut tactics. The only thing is that my isk doesn't flow as fast as it can, but on the other hand, it isn't so time intensive and my profit percentage is always high :) ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.15 12:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Confuzer Congratz... it is a risk buying the market at that prices, so you deserved it. I see lots of those deals but are just too scared cus it's possible them items will come right back on the market with the same price from the same guys. That those guys had such haste selling their items was stupid. Haste costs you alot of ISK. I put my stuff on the market and let it be there for 6 months if I have to. If my trade slots are full I just use another account. So it's stupid not to write yourself a blank check for opening ever-increasing numbers of accounts for more market alts? Yes, haste can cost you isk, but sloth can also cost you isk. The higher you push the price, the slower your sales, and there is no guarantee that this relationship is linear (in fact it's far more likely not to be, especially the further you push the price up). If you can get an extra 10% profit, but you sales move 20% slower, you're actually earning less than you would be if you weren't trying for that extra 10% profit. Originally by: Confuzer This way I block alot of this kind of undercut tactics. The only thing is that my isk doesn't flow as fast as it can, but on the other hand, it isn't so time intensive and my profit percentage is always high :) Profit percentage is nice, but if you're selling very slowly, that doesn't really work out at a very high isk/hour rate. Most players, especially producers, will be trying to optimize within a number of limiting factors. For a typical producer, this could involve: 1) Quantity supply of minerals 2) BP's owned/supply of BPCs 3) Number of factory slots the char can use 4) number of lab slots the char can use 5) number of market orders the char can have 6) price/demand relationship for each item 7) Time available to play The balance of these will vary between players, and any or all may be the limiting factor at any given time. What is optimal to you may not be for another player. Because of this, resellers can exist in a situation where both the reseller and supplier are doing nothing stupid, but are just following their own, differing, optimal paths. For example, if the limiting factor is factory slot capacity, I would choose what to produce (and thus what to sell), based on it's value for "profit per factory second". If someone starts undercutting me on the market, it just pushes that product down the priority list and I'd probably just stop producing it and produce something that is still yielding the higher level of return. If the undercutter is below the market clearing price, his supplies will dry up and the price will return to normal, at which point I start building it again. If the limiting factor is the number of market orders, I'm going to be looking to optimize the profit per market order minute - which means I need to take into account both the profit per unit, and the rate of sale. If by reducing my price by X% I can generate an increase in quantity greater than X%, then I will, because that will yield a higher profit per market order minute, and thus a greater profit over time overall within my contraints. Of course, if all the above takes an appreciable amount of time, then you have to start to ask about play time as a limiting factor, and consider things like whether just abandoning all that and running missions is a more profitable use of time. If someone can make more money mining or running missions than they can eke out by babysitting their market orders, then their apparently lazy and "stupid" market orders are actually a smart move. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Confuzer PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.11.15 14:10:00 - [23] Edited by: Confuzer on 15/11/2007 14:11:24 You are overexagorating my point. I sell alot within a good time, I make enough profit to support 30 accounts a month with isk if I have to (not that I ever need that much, I think) and I spend very little time on my trades. If I put something for sale on the market, I will not change it ever. Everything sales sometime, you just have to wait for a rich player who won't mind the lesser profit or extra expense he makes. In the time I save not updating my market orders, I PvP with the ISK made, perfect deal imho. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
John Newport Caldari Newport Family Trust Fund	Posted - 2007.11.15 17:21:00 - [24] Lots of words and big reactions in this thread for a simple announcement of "thank you". Unless you are personally spoken to by him, ofcourse. John Newport Small Time Investor.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.15 18:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Confuzer I sell alot within a good time, I make enough profit to support 30 accounts a month with isk if I have to (not that I ever need that much, I think) and I spend very little time on my trades. I understand this is you trying to say you're right because you make a lot of money doing it your way. If that is indeed your guide for deciding which way is better than I'll play that game with ya. I put forth the idea that being able to afford 30 accounts is not that impressive. Trying to sell everything I get quickly I am able to afford accounts well into the triple digits and that number is growing quickly. I spend about 60 minutes a day trading. I only use 3 accounts though and only 2 characters among those accounts are trade characters. Quality > Quantity. Turnover > Price. Note: This whole thread was nothing but an exercise in epeen flexing, so I figured I'd join in to put the existing flexing into perspective. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.16 09:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Confuzer Edited by: Confuzer on 15/11/2007 14:11:24 You are overexagorating my point. I sell alot within a good time, I make enough profit to support 30 accounts a month with isk if I have to (not that I ever need that much, I think) and I spend very little time on my trades. Of course, if you're using the isk to support account subscriptions that exist for no other reason than to supply you with more market orders, then you need to treat the cost of those accounts as a business expense that reduces your profit, not as something you make enough profit to afford. To break it down, every market order you have on these accounts has an isk cost per unit time, very simply calculated as: isk_cost_of_account/number_of_orders_on_account with your isk cost in whatever units of time you want to measure in. So the longer you leave an order sitting on the market, the more costs you incur, and thus the lower actual profit you make. Originally by: Confuzer In the time I save not updating my market orders, I PvP with the ISK made, perfect deal imho. Well here we're introducing the reason why your method may make sense for you, where it wouldn't for me. You clearly value your time pvp'ing higher than your time updating market orders. Which effectively leads us into putting an economic valuation on fun and bringing that into your total profit/loss equation. If you are aware of the size of this trade-off, and have decided that the fun is worth more to you than the extra isk you could be making, then you are behaving perfectly properly for you, even if it's not optimal in terms of pure isk acquisition. Of course, people who find it more fun to work the market than to pvp (I'm assuming by pvp you mean combat, rather than other forms of pvp which does include market competition) are equally correct in taking a more active interest in their orders than you do and ekeing out more isk from the process. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Confuzer PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:17:00 - [27] Edited by: Confuzer on 16/11/2007 12:23:18 \o/ I think I made my point perfectly clear but you guys just make stories of it. Updating trade orders is work to me. I do it once a day and only one time because honestly, it's boring like hell. Shadarle: Managing 3 digits on accounts, means a minimal 600-700 mil profit a day. I am not there yet, but slowly comming there. So I don't see the need for full-time market PvP. You just have to find the niches and exploit them to the fullest. Tbh 60 mins a day on a profit more than that is not bad though. And yes I mean battle PvP. It's nice to buy a fully tech II fitted BS or HAC every day if you must and fly it into 0.0 without being scared to loose it. So in short, you e-peen dudes must indeed use what I see as fun in the equation ;) (btw, I make an average of 50% profit and most trades never reach the 3 month barrier.) ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:52:00 - [28] /me wishes Shadarle would fund my PvP habbit with that isk
Kimi Caldari Omiracon Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.16 16:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Shar Tegral You presume they didn't make 100+% of what they intended to make. Just because you found 1.2 billion more on the table doesn't mean they lost anything. You presume their costs and thus assume a few things. [/justify] That is actually a pretty good presumption. Before I got burned out on making more money than I could possibly ever use, I would travel around and buy 100's of millions of underpriced items - many (due to the stupid undercutting mentioned) were priced at far less than low mineral prices. In one station I bought over 3200 drones just to recycle them and sold the minerals without even moving them for an 80 million profit. If I had bothered to move them I could have made 2-3 times as much. All because of the lemming like approach to pricing by sellers.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.16 19:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Kimi Originally by: Shar Tegral You presume they didn't make 100+% of what they intended to make. Just because you found 1.2 billion more on the table doesn't mean they lost anything. You presume their costs and thus assume a few things. [/justify] That is actually a pretty good presumption. Before I got burned out on making more money than I could possibly ever use, I would travel around and buy 100's of millions of underpriced items - many (due to the stupid undercutting mentioned) were priced at far less than low mineral prices. In one station I bought over 3200 drones just to recycle them and sold the minerals without even moving them for an 80 million profit. If I had bothered to move them I could have made 2-3 times as much. All because of the lemming like approach to pricing by sellers. Yet another person who thinks those who don't trade exactly like they do are lemmings/stupid/etc. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

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