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The economy: combat is the problem

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Aitrus Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.16 00:18:00 - [31] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Aitrus Only if you use T1 ships and mods. Have you ever looked at the insurance payouts on tech II ships? What about them? They're a lot higher than the payments, just like with tech 1. It's just that the ship itself has a much higher market price, but that has nothing to do with ISK sinks and faucets. True, I stand corrected.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2007.11.16 00:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Shakalakahiki Spacebase simulation would be a great step. By this I mean you can own and grow your starbase in a Simcity style sandbox. We already have this. They've called POS's and Outposts.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.16 00:22:00 - [33] god i wish that was a real problem to me..... you can help
Dee Caffari Big S Triangle	Posted - 2007.11.16 00:22:00 - [34] to the OP: While I agree that more immersive and, in some cases, expensive content would be nice. I believe all your arguments regarding inflation/deflation are flawed or based on flawed assumptions. For a start there are many non combat related isk sinks (infact combat tends to be a 'faucet' rather than a 'sink' due to insurance payments). Some examples: POS's and POS fuel (although these can be used for combat as well); trade goods; skill books; BPO's and LP stores are all non PvP related isk sinks (although I'll admit these are all at least tangentially related to combat). I suspect you are confusing an isk sink (something that removes isk permanently from the economy) with something to spend your isk on. Most industrialists do not add much (if any) isk to the game (the majority of isk in the game comes from ratting, missions and insurance payouts). mining and manufacturing do not add to the isk supply. So you sitting there making isk for yourself (as long as it isn't by ratting or missioning) is, in fact, a good thing, if anything you are a deflationary pressure on the game as you are increasing the availability of goods relative to demand. If I understand the last econ dev release correctly recent deflation has primarily been caused by invention. The vast deflation caused by invention (many T2 items are less than half the price they were) masks the overall inflationary pressure caused by the increasing average wealth of eve players. In short what you propose will not balance the economy in the slightest, but it might add to the immersiveness of the game. As an afterthought: isk sinks tend to make the (economic aspect) of the game less interesting as they take control of the economy out of the players hands and put it into the hands of the NPC's. The most ideal way to fix the economy, imo, would be to remove the 'sink/faucet' system and make the economy entirely player driven with some sort of eve central bank to control the money supply. However this is where the system gets beyond my rather rudimentary knowledge of economics so I'll leave it there. :)
Adunh Slavy KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.16 00:57:00 - [35] Originally by: Dee Caffari à Most industrialists do not add much (if any) isk to the game (the majority of isk in the game comes from ratting, missions and insurance payouts). mining and manufacturing do not add to the isk supply. So you sitting there making isk for yourself (as long as it isn't by ratting or missioning) is, in fact, a good thing, This is actually a humors point. At 80 Bil in assets, that don't do anything, Valory, you are an ISK sink. Ok, back to the serious discussion à -AS The Real Space Initiative (Forum Link)
iIaiIaiIa	Posted - 2007.11.16 01:03:00 - [36] Drop some outposts.
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.11.16 01:07:00 - [37] Originally by: Lady Valory However, many of us industrialists don't want to participate in combat. SO our billions of isk just grow and grow and we make MORE isk... I've about 80 billions now in assets and I've given up buying more stuff as I have a lifetime of ships etc ... So give me 10bill and I'll go pvp it for you. I reckon a few people might be surprised to see me ganking them in a Nightmare "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.11.16 01:14:00 - [38] want an isk sink? you know where the button is. The name is spelt K-E-H-M-O-R. Thats an o not a zero. The Movement is recruiting!
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.16 01:26:00 - [39] Interesting thread. Sometime in 2008 I'll dink over into the realm of trillionaire. I won't quite make it this year. And there's nothing for me to spend it on. 1. PvP: I'm a huge fan of solo PvP, tournaments, I'll take it any way that I can get it. But for fleets and blobs - lame. Since the latter represents 95% of PvP in Eve, I don't PvP much. 2. Charity: My passive income probably looks astronomical to the average pod pilot in Eve, and I give away quite a few billion ISK every month in contests, events, and occasionally, random people who impress me. 3. ?? Yeah. There's nothing else to sink ISK into. BPOs? You buy those to generate more ISK, and believe me - there comes a point when you stop engaging in ISK making activities because there's simply no point anymore. I'm in an NPC corp because the "PvP corps" are really carebear blobs unwilling to fly without a gang. 0.0 is just a means to make ISK better than you can in highsec. So what else am I supposed to spend it on? I really wouldn't mind having a flourescent green ship. =) Maybe a picture of a carebear on the hull. Something personalized. But yeah - the only real ISK sink is PvP, and insurance cuts down the pain of that significantly. But when PvP is as lame as the current system, and I can't log in, pew pew, and log off again on MY time schedule...then its not fun. Multi-hour fleet ops, assemblies, and lagfests aren't fun. Neither are gatecamps. On a side note, I have to say that the biggest carebears in Eve are the ones afraid of losing their pixelated assets...and they fly in huge fleets and blob gates to insure that that they can wtfpwn anything without risking their own ships. Mission runners don't blob their missions. They do it solo. Something is really wrong with the state of PvP here.... /wanders off aimlessly.
Shakalakahiki	Posted - 2007.11.16 01:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Shakalakahiki Spacebase simulation would be a great step. By this I mean you can own and grow your starbase in a Simcity style sandbox. We already have this. They've called POS's and Outposts. Not even close.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.16 01:48:00 - [41] Edited by: Devian 666 on 16/11/2007 01:48:46 In general I agree with you. There should be more to sink your isk into and the COSMOS 2.0 content (where ever that went) was going to provide a lot more. Potentially your own deadspace pocket where you could provide your own structures including specialised types of production. I even like the ideas around "producing" NPC goods. A few of them are used as pos fuel/isk sink, but they could be adapted for use in the actual economy. Perhaps the real problem is the lack of a luxury market. There has been a suggestion of a rather expensive yaught which only exists for the purpose of showing off bling. That is rather pointless once you own 5 or 10 of them though. Philanthropy is often what most real world billionaires end up being involved in. However, there is another existing option though you could fund military objectives for the sake of manipulating political events in the eve landscape. That would be a method of spending many billions. Overnerfing creates unbalanced ship builds. Stop overnerfing!
Jennai Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.16 01:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Karlemgne Permit me to add that isk sinks or currency sinks are used in almost every MMO to limit inflation and to keep the amount of isk created balanced. You see, unlike real economies, in MMOs you have an issue with created currency. There isn't a limited supply of cash changing hands between human beings. Every NPC you kill and mission you run creates isk that wasn't there and tends to lead in older games to hyper inflation. Eventually you have an issue with new players being priced out of routine items. So while the rats in low-sec might have meant something significant in the past in terms of there ability to get noobs right into buying ships, items, etc to compete on more equal footing with the old players, these days the 100k isk spawns get you hardly anything. Isk sinks are good, especially ones that also add to the game. Stuff like housing, decorations, clothing, etc add flare to a game while also allowing currency to flow out of the economy... thus limiting run away MMO inflation. You don't know what I mean? Try logging onto an EQ server. -Karl this is only an issue when necessary items are only produced in relatively small amounts by NPCs. if the drop rate can't support demand, it ends up with ridiculous inflation. necessary items in EVE are available either from player production, or in near-infinite quantities from NPCs. prices of player-produced items (and the minerals used to build them) are kept in check by supply and demand, and hard caps on certain products like NPC sell orders on crap frigates and the shuttle-reprocessing trit cap. if prices get too high on something, people will just increase the supply by buying BPOs, mining more, or inventing. the only thing that would be vulnerable to typical MMO inflation would be high-end loot-only stuff like officer gear, but ratting seems to be able to keep up with demand so far.
General Meridus Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.16 02:06:00 - [43] I don't see anything wrong with wanting more of an end game for the industry types. Perhaps the in station stuff will provide something in that arena. At least it looked like it might from the dev blogs.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.16 02:10:00 - [44] The in station stuff for me will include getting drunk and then giving the new stations new windows with my Typhoon Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking "Villains, I say to you now... knock off all that evil!" ~The Tick
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.11.16 02:27:00 - [45] there are several isk sinks. Give me isk!! I believe it costs a billion isk to send a corp mail to an NPC corp. Always wished I had enough isk to do that. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars??? Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
NOK NOK Bounteous Immortals TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.11.16 04:02:00 - [46] here's an idea just gimme your assets and isk.. i will spend it wisely. CEO of Bounteous Immortals Talionis Alliance Bounteous we are, Immortal you are not....
Cheeseburgler	Posted - 2007.11.16 05:01:00 - [47] Edited by: Cheeseburgler on 16/11/2007 05:03:17 Edited by: Cheeseburgler on 16/11/2007 05:01:25 On one hand people whine about time sinks on the other they wish they had more. Time sinks can destroy a game but I guess you're saying it could also make it more in depth as well. But only for the people who can put in the time (which I'll allow is much more detached from other MMOs) what about new players? There comes a time when new players start coming to a game and feel that they are years and years behind... new players stop coming to the game. Star Wars Galaxies changes happen and the game mutates; forever and fails. You have to balance sinks and the ability for new players to get into the game. And isk sink is a time sink by the way. But at least they got the skill thing right. I do think your point that these 'sinks' should equal overpowered gameplay and just individual gameplay experience is a good one.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.16 05:22:00 - [48] Funding construction of new NPC stations, or just directly player-owned stations in highsec. Variable security status of systems : expanding highsec into former lowsec, or empire lowsec into former 0.0 via funding to "NPC infrastructure", and "shrinking" of empires highsec/lowsec due to rampant suicide-ganking (highsec turning into lowsec slowly) or massive killing sprees (lowsec slowly turning into 0.0) in those systems and neighbouring ones... of course, the bigger the expansion/shrinkage, exponentially more "effort" has to be "invested" to keep the pace of change (so you never actually end up with all 0.0 neither all highsec/lowsec)... probably slightly tied into factional warfare too. And so on and so forth... just a few not-quite-so-directly-combat-related possible ISK sinks. _ Char creation \| Stacknerfs \| Invention \|CNVTF
cal nereus Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.16 05:23:00 - [49] I recently purchased 3550 Spirits at Aunia and sold 'em in Dodixie for a 200k profit. I just generated new isk in the game. Go me! --- Join BH-DL Skills
Swindley Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.16 08:54:00 - [50] I didn't read all posts here, just the first few, frankly because the original post excited me alot, and I agree totally! Inflation sure, that's one argument. But we simply also need fun stuff to spend isk on besides combat. Sure, I'll fit a faction equipped mission runner and do some missions etc, but we DO need non combat things to spend money on indeed. As OP stated, it could be cosmetic things, or things that are just plain cool or convinient. Wouldnt have to give any particular benefits or anything. Thought I wonder how much some people would pay for an "autowarp to 0m" module:P Do I hear 10bill anyone?:P Anyway, keep this thread going, and hope CCP reads it, and keep posting good ideas:) Now I'm gonna read the rest of the posts here;) ------------------------------------------------ Ooooh look at me, I'm a signature!
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2007.11.16 09:22:00 - [51] Originally by: Shakalakahiki Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Shakalakahiki Spacebase simulation would be a great step. By this I mean you can own and grow your starbase in a Simcity style sandbox. We already have this. They've called POS's and Outposts. Not even close. How so? "own and grow your starbase in a Simcity style sandbox" Sounds, to me, exactly like running POS's and Outposts in Eve at the moment.
Eben Rochelle Gallente Free Mercenaries Union	Posted - 2007.11.16 09:24:00 - [52] Is this for real? your complaining because your too rich? facepalm
Alahar	Posted - 2007.11.16 10:04:00 - [53] no, he is complaining that he has a lot of money but nothing shiny to spent it on.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2007.11.16 10:27:00 - [54] Originally by: Alahar no, he is complaining that he has a lot of money but nothing shiny to spent it on. In other words, he's complaining about his own lack of imagination.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.11.16 10:34:00 - [55] Originally by: Aitrus Edited by: Aitrus on 15/11/2007 23:51:38 What you're talking about isn't inflation. Just because you make lots of isk and don't lose anything doesn't mean the economy is inflating. If you are an industrialist, then I assume a majority of your wealth came from other players. Meaning for you to make isk, others spend isk. It's not being created, it's being transferred. The fact that wealth may be stagnating in some areas is an issue, but it's not inflation. snip I agree with this analysis completely. It sounds more like stagnation than a matter of inflation. Sure, new bling or whatever to spend your money on is fine. New isk sinks are good I guess. I'm sure many will come with ambulation. It would be more interesting though if industrialists were more dependent on combat oriented pilots so that the isk circulated a bit more. By this I mean things like needing to pay for escorts to protect the goods you're selling for example. Sure, there are components produced that are only possible with an organization that can protect the base of operations. But there certainly could be more of this sort of thing. But then I suppose that would require Eve to be even more of a harsh environment than it is. Something it's been trending away from, and certainly would cause a forum firestorm of ****ed off carebears should they attempt to make it so. ---- WSSH
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.16 10:42:00 - [56] Syndicate. Small gang pvp. No conquerable stations, so no pos blob warfare. Its basically eve's free for all arena. I say you take your 80Billion, spend it on buying yourself and your corpmates good ships, plenty of supplies, maybe a carrier or two. Then you come pvp in Syndicate with a well armed 10 to 20 man gang. You will have a LOT of small pvp fun. Just make sure you have a regular ISK stream of several billions a month to support your corpmates need for ships / mods. Alternatively you can donate your 80Billion to GSY and HUZZAH, we will ensure it is converted into pure pvp pwnage. ============================================ Reload all with <AmmoType>
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.16 11:00:00 - [57] For those of you stating we have inflation, I have yet to see it... T2 goods have come down in price, minerals have come down in price as have items manufactured with them. In fact, it is no longer "risk vs reward" worthy to hit low security for some of the "higher" end ores. I recently bought an Obelisk for 820 mil. Where is this inflation? Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.16 11:10:00 - [58] Lack of non-combat ISK sinks? Are you drunk? Almost everything industry related is an ISK sink - BPO buying, research, manufacturing fees, market fees, ... You actually take ISK out of the economy and get ISK from other players. Combat is about mostly ISK faucets and item sinks, while industry is mostly the exact opposite.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.16 11:23:00 - [59] OP needs to actually try combat before trying to sum it all up wrongly.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.16 11:52:00 - [60] Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 16/11/2007 11:57:45 Quote: Actually, inflation isn't a problem right now. You should watch the economic panel they showed at fanfest. ehm... k... just like in real life, these tools for measuring inflation are more than cheesy. however, eve has GTC sales. 30d going from 185mil in june to ~205mil these days...; i find ~10% less value quite a problem. yes, i can buy the same stuff for the same (or lesser) amount of isk. however, that stuff isn't competitive anymore: back then a HAC was still cool - now one "needs" a command ship. POSwars include more and more faction towers. life has become more expensive. sure, there's "less" sinks and tower blueprints are bought from the finders. command ships are built by players aswell. but it still gets blown up in the end. so... there's more money and it's passing hands more quickly. devaluation ftl anyways... yeah... i'd buy Rens VI-8 any day. just for the heck of it (sry menod) - putting the gist back into logistics

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