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kartoffelgesicht
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.30 14:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi Guys. Im wondering a bit. A few days ago i were in low sek with my Manticore. I jumped into a system and seen a Loki with another guys. Seemed the other guy were doing boost on the loki. As ever if i decloak with the button "warp to" and insta push the cloak button noone have a chance to lock me up. Cause the first invul timer after decloak and then the cloak.
But ... he did lock me.. and he even did scramble me..
I mean.. how could he do that? I tryed that MANY times. Even with 10k+ scan resolution Ceptors. I NEVER had a chance to lock something after it declaoked and fast activatet the cloak.
So how did he manage that?
No i had no lag. Everything was good. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Reverse Safari Venture Industries
793
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Posted - 2012.01.30 14:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's quite possible to do that. They probably had the warp disruptor already clicked and were just waiting on you to appear in the overview so they could tackle you. All they have to do is start the lock in the second or so before your cloak engages, and point you before you warp. Align time on a manticore gives them time enough for that to happen.
Was the other guy in a logistics cruiser? |
Rhealee
Darkness Of Absolution
Army Of Darkness.
6
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Posted - 2012.01.30 15:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Insta locks are very possible and common. The shortest time for any module in the game to respond is 1 second. Meaning if you aligned and punched your cloak half second later thats 1.5 seconds your decloaked. That loki had a 1 second lock and modules already hot. So thats half second you got beat.
Cloaks are not meant to save you everytime, they just improve your odds of survivability. Just like a warp stab or nano fit. |
kartoffelgesicht
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.30 16:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
No it didnt took me 1.5 seconds to activate my cloak. I activatet it maybe 0.5 seconds after decloak. Ive done this many many times before. Go to a gate and try to lock someone who just decloaked. no you cant. You can even spam CTRL+leftclick on him NEVER your first attempt will lock him NEVER. But it seems that he go me with the first attempt.
IF i manage so lock someone really fast up like Destroyer my point NEVER activates. So something is ****** in this mechanic.. |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
61
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Posted - 2012.01.30 16:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
OP is right.
You decloak when you start to align, and there should be no delay to activating modules once you have decloaked, bar a round-trip to the server.
There have been bug reports in the past of module activation delay immediately following a jump.
Did you align immediately after the jump, or did you hold your cloak for 5-10 seconds first?
Either there is a bug or latency involved here.
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kartoffelgesicht
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.30 16:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
i waited around 7 seconds after the jump to check the next gate via scanner. I didnt had the cloak activatet before the jump. So the cloak was ready.
In the time i click "warp to" my ship gets decloaked. And in this time my ship isnt lockable cause its still the "decloaking" effect where you just cannot lock. Or atleast other ships i tryed never were lockable for lets say 0.5 seconds. In that time cloak activation and no one can lock you.
i checked latency and it was very good.
I still dont know how that system works.
Sometimes im on the TS with a friend and we are camping a gate. We fly both the same ships and we have both max skills.
Why sometimes he yells "I cannot lock him, i cannot lock him" at the time i already locked the target and pointet him?
Sometimes its changed. He can lock and me not.
Many many times one of us can lock but the point didnt activate. Even if the point is activatet BEFORE the lock.
This whole mechanic isnt working very well i think.. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
37
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Posted - 2012.01.30 16:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Could it be something as simple as one of you were in range to target while the other person was not?
I've also locked people but failed to have my point activate until I mash the button several times. I just chalk this up to me being in target range but not point range
On holiday. -áIn some other world.
Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours.
To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á
It was a sun |
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.01.30 17:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Was something within 2k? |
Rhealee
Darkness Of Absolution
Army Of Darkness.
6
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Posted - 2012.01.30 17:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
That round trip thruough the eve server is 1 second to register.
I have also noticed locking bugs, i noticed you cant lock uncloaked stuff while its dropping out of warp and rolling to a stop, many times if the pilot doesnt click anything they have some kind of delay to being locked, i started noticing this with first incarna patch.
But as i said before a cloak does not mean your totally invulnerable. That slight delay from moving to cloaking can be enough for someone to lock you. It really comes down to, did the server recognize the tackle ship or the cloaked ship first in that split second. Ussually the ship in local on gate, not the one jumping in, gets the faster response time. Everything is loaded and up to date. Whereas the one jumping in has to load a lot of data for several seconds. Hince the recommendation to hold cloak a little while.
If your so concerned over a 40m isk ship maybe petition ccp to look into the server logs. Last week they replaced 1.1bill for me due to their server response. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Reverse Safari Venture Industries
797
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Posted - 2012.01.30 23:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's important to note that you cannot cloak while they are *locking* you. I've confirmed that by having my orca start targeting my covops, and it prevented the cloak during the 20+ second acquisition timer. Latency can make it seem like your cloak went active when in reality it failed because in that .5 seconds they were able to target you. Once they've started targeting you, your cloak will fail if it's not already active. And if their command to target reaches the server before your command to cloak, they win.
I'm guessing they had a cloaked scout on the other side so they knew what you were bringing before you jumped through, and that the second ship was a logi with rsebo bonuses to get that lock time as tight as possible. Then it's just a matter of having a properly-configured overview so that they can be sure to click your name as soon as you appear.
It all comes down to reflexes and latency. |
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Caghji
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2012.01.31 06:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sjugar wrote:Was something within 2k?
This....
This is the only time i have been caught in covert ops ship - once in fact - there were several wrecks on gate and i spawned next to one - was very confused at the time how they caught me - the pirates very helpfully(gleefully) told me how 'unlucky I was' to have spawned next to a wreck in local
Since i didn't have wrecks on overview if they hadn't said i still would have been wondering to this day |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
161
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Posted - 2012.01.31 12:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Its possible to lock you before you cloak. Its quite unlikely and a fair bit of luck is required.
Server tick is 1 second - so here's what probably happened :
1) You decloak for align half-way through server tick 1;
2) Sensor boosted Loki begins to lock you;
3) Server tick 1 over;
4) You hit cloak but the server tick 1 has already happened so your cloak won't activate until the end of server tick 2. That's near enough 2 seconds after you decloaked;
5) You're locked.
You're misunderstanding the server tick - the smallest time interval the server "understands" is one second.
If you decloak half-way through a tick and then take 0.5 secs to hit the cloak then you're into another server tick and the whole process will take 1.5 seconds (two server ticks).
If you decloak at the start of a server tick and hit the cloak 0.5 secs later then the whole process will take 1 second and you cannot be locked as the fastest lock time is one server tick - ie one second.
It also helps locking if the target has some latency stability issues - eg ping time bouncing around due to overloaded connections at ISP/transit provider.
HTH. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
127
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Posted - 2012.01.31 12:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
lag.
you cant even start locking something whats insta cloaking after decloak. |
Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
69
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Posted - 2012.01.31 22:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
I have seen Dramiels with 9,000+ scan resolutions. I know you are not talking about drams but that's it anyway. Max out fleet booster with the right mindlink or whatever along copious amount of very high-end sensor and remote sensor boosters boosters and there you go. I think I still have a screenshot of the Show Info panel somewhere...
It leaves no room for mistakes. It's an intricate setup you are not likely to cross twice.
Maybe lag played against you that one time while they went to great lengths to stack all odds in their favour. If that's the case, they paid out of their ass for it. |
Caldari Citizen 786478786
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2012.01.31 23:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:It's important to note that you cannot cloak while they are *locking* you.
This is most definitely NOT true.
As to the OP's query, it was likely a combination of lag (even 100ms can make a difference) and/or luck.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
241
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Posted - 2012.02.01 02:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
kartoffelgesicht wrote:No it didnt took me 1.5 seconds to activate my cloak. I activatet it maybe 0.5 seconds after decloak. Ive done this many many times before. Go to a gate and try to lock someone who just decloaked. no you cant. You can even spam CTRL+leftclick on him NEVER your first attempt will lock him NEVER. But it seems that he go me with the first attempt.
IF i manage so lock someone really fast up like Destroyer my point NEVER activates. So something is ****** in this mechanic..
If I recall correctly, CTRL + leftclick is slow, my friends who could lock an interceptor before it warped locked directly on screen.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Red Teufel
Blackened Skies
THE UNTHINKABLES
37
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Posted - 2012.02.01 02:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
someone was within 2k of you... bad luck got you |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
558
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Posted - 2012.02.01 04:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
as already mentioned the server ticks with 1s ticks.
if both player press a button within the same tick its luck who comes first. your cloak or the lock of the enemy
a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
163
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Posted - 2012.02.01 08:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If I recall correctly, CTRL + leftclick is slow, my friends who could lock an interceptor before it warped locked directly on screen.
Thanks for reminding me Vaerah, I should have mentioned that you're NEVER going to "instalock" if you use the overview to select the target. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
241
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Posted - 2012.02.01 08:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Othran wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If I recall correctly, CTRL + leftclick is slow, my friends who could lock an interceptor before it warped locked directly on screen.
Thanks for reminding me Vaerah, I should have mentioned that you're NEVER going to "instalock" if you use the overview to select the target.
Yeah there are a slew of "instalock" tricks that are not written anywhere.
I.E. not many understand that the overview updates are delayed, so good luck locking someone using it.
Also (at least when I was in there), there are "pre-activating" and "pre-hotting up" modules, if you don't do it, it's hard to get anything hooked up before 1 second / have full range and so on.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
63
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Posted - 2012.02.01 09:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Othran wrote:Its possible to lock you before you cloak. Its quite unlikely and a fair bit of luck is required.
Server tick is 1 second - so here's what probably happened :
1) You decloak for align half-way through server tick 1;
2) Sensor boosted Loki begins to lock you;
3) Server tick 1 over;
4) You hit cloak but the server tick 1 has already happened so your cloak won't activate until the end of server tick 2. That's near enough 2 seconds after you decloaked;
5) You're locked.
You're misunderstanding the server tick - the smallest time interval the server "understands" is one second.
If you decloak half-way through a tick and then take 0.5 secs to hit the cloak then you're into another server tick and the whole process will take 1.5 seconds (two server ticks).
If you decloak at the start of a server tick and hit the cloak 0.5 secs later then the whole process will take 1 second and you cannot be locked as the fastest lock time is one server tick - ie one second.
It also helps locking if the target has some latency stability issues - eg ping time bouncing around due to overloaded connections at ISP/transit provider.
HTH.
I don't think this can happen.
1) You decloak for align half-way through server tick 1
2) Sensor boosted Loki begins to lock you
How can the Loki lock you, you are not visible on his client yet?
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Amsterdam Conversations
Cheesecake Starshine
85
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Posted - 2012.02.01 09:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Othran wrote:Its possible to lock you before you cloak. Its quite unlikely and a fair bit of luck is required.
Server tick is 1 second - so here's what probably happened :
1) You decloak for align half-way through server tick 1;
2) Sensor boosted Loki begins to lock you;
3) Server tick 1 over;
4) You hit cloak but the server tick 1 has already happened so your cloak won't activate until the end of server tick 2. That's near enough 2 seconds after you decloaked;
5) You're locked.
You're misunderstanding the server tick - the smallest time interval the server "understands" is one second.
If you decloak half-way through a tick and then take 0.5 secs to hit the cloak then you're into another server tick and the whole process will take 1.5 seconds (two server ticks).
If you decloak at the start of a server tick and hit the cloak 0.5 secs later then the whole process will take 1 second and you cannot be locked as the fastest lock time is one server tick - ie one second.
It also helps locking if the target has some latency stability issues - eg ping time bouncing around due to overloaded connections at ISP/transit provider.
HTH.
No, this is not how the server works.
It gives out information (or however you want to call it) every 1 seconds, but when you send data to the server, as in f1ing the cloak or ctrl-clicking lock the server will determine who did what first. Do you really think the server only ticks in 1 second intervals and in between that nothing else happens? Incoming information isn't processed in one second intervals.
The only way to get instalocked in a cloaking ship is because of client or network lag, most of the times the issue is that people click the cloak too early so it doesn't engage, or they click it too late. In that little timeframe people send their locking "request" to the server, the server processes that before the cloak "request" comes in and voila, lock before cloak. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
Black Thorne Alliance
116
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Posted - 2012.02.01 15:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
It's more like this:
1) You decloak for align in server tick 1
Until the end of that tick you are still cloaked from coming through the gate. If you try to activate your on board cloak, you will fail. The loki has no way of seeing you to lock you.
2) During tick 2 the following commands are given:
- you snap on your cloak
- loki attempts to lock you
I assume commands are processed in a FIFO order so if the server got your order to cloak before the loki tried to lock you, you are golden. If the server gets the loki's order to lock you before your order to cloak, you're toast.
Notice it's the order in which the server gets the commands that's critical - this is affected by latency, lag, reflexes etc. |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
63
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Posted - 2012.02.02 10:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Maybe that's how it works, though I would be surprised if it was.
Don't forget that in Factional Warfare there a loads and loads of stealth bombers flying missions through camped gates the whole time.
They rarely get caught. In fact I have never seen one get caught unless they get bumped by a ceptor or get the bad luck to spawn with 2500m of someone.
If it worked like this I think we would see a lot more getting popped. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
245
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Posted - 2012.02.02 23:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Othran wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If I recall correctly, CTRL + leftclick is slow, my friends who could lock an interceptor before it warped locked directly on screen.
Thanks for reminding me Vaerah, I should have mentioned that you're NEVER going to "instalock" if you use the overview to select the target. Yeah there are a slew of "instalock" tricks that are not written anywhere. I.E. not many understand that the overview updates are delayed, so good luck locking someone using it. Also (at least when I was in there), there are "pre-activating" and "pre-hotting up" modules, if you don't do it, it's hard to get anything hooked up before 1 second / have full range and so on.
Noob question: How would he lock something if he didnt CTRL +left click?
Also if I remember correctly a dev once explained that everything that comes in the same tick is considered a tie. I think warping and cloaking take priority if they come in the same tic as locking.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
290
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Posted - 2012.02.29 15:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:as already mentioned the server ticks with 1s ticks.
if both player press a button within the same tick its luck who comes first. your cloak or the lock of the enemy
I believe a dev had posted in the past that the server used to prioritize these commands that come in the same tic depending on the command. Specificially he said a warp out command would have priority over a warp scram command.
If this is now random I wish ccp would tell us.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
3
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Posted - 2012.03.01 08:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
All it takes is a drone or a can to be too close when you hit cloak and you are gone. I think a passing missile might also undo a cloak.
Most commonly - You may have double clicked your cloak in the rush to escape turning it back off before it got to kick in.
It's best to change your destination warp to whatever is closest in line with the front of your ship after jumping the gate.
Lower align times can save you just as often as a cloak. Sometimes there is nowhere available for a straight warp off so just grit your teeth and hope that little insurance window doesn't visit you.
If you are doing the MWD with Improved cloak trick and they are ready for you, they will start locking quickly so your cloak fails - you would have still hit the MWD turning your ship sig into a moon making their lock seem amazingly fast to you - almost instant.
It's not a big deal when it happens - get another ship and get back out there.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 |
Ailok Konem
United Warriors
Ataraxian Steel
0
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Posted - 2012.03.12 14:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
insta lock r done by remote sensor boosting fleets. go market - remote sensor booster - show info !!!!!!! |
Opije
Psykotic Meat
BLACK-MARK
0
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Posted - 2012.03.14 04:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
I have done this many times on just a double sebo Stilleto.
CTRL-Click is never fast enough plus leaves room for error.
Always F-key then click spam, works for me anyway. |
Daphny Naarma
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.03.14 22:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
One of the biggest and most important factors here are that players don't realize very well how big the server roundtrip - including calculations and checks - really are. CCP, like all mmo "providers" have as one of the top priorities as well as challenges(!) to make the game appear as smooth and lag free as possible - often "cheating" by expoiting client side mechanics that the human mind doesn't notice as clearly as others.
With the above, I am simply stating that your "ping" (some two-three figure ms unit) will NEVER be a reliable factor when it comes to certain functions (those that cannot as easily be "hid" client side), and neglecting them in search for "other explanations" is always going one step too far.
Do any of you think it is a coincidence that it is always a function where a logical "check" of the interactions between players (did he lock or not - yes or no - there is no client fasade to smooth this out) that always "bugs"? That's a rethrorical question ofc.
In short - several things could have happened at the particular case described in the OP. it is however rather pointless to speculate, when the fact is latency is always a lot more than you think and *can* always be the explanation. Stating "I had no lag" is simply null-worth. We all have a lot more lag (higher server round trip time) than most of the game's functions let us be aware of. The second one understands that - many "bugs" (definate player interactions mainly) become 100% logical.
If CCP didn't cut corners (all mmos do this) playing on our human awareness and all checks (incl hitting rats/whateverlowpriorityfunction) actually made the linear route from client to server to calculations/checks back to client -> "your lazor hits rat for loads!", people wouldn't bear playing it due to a massive sensation of lag. This is a fact and something mmo providers have to compensate for as much as possible to give the *impression* of the most game functions actually working at pace of listed "ping". This is never the case in reality though and some things (like definate yes/no checks that has to be relayed to players) can't be smoothed by the client cutting corners.
"Cloak of shadows" bug in WoW. Locking/cloaking bug in EVE. Just succumb to the fact that they are not bugs, but extremes of examples where the full server roundtrip is needed, and a full server roundtrip is always way longer than your ping (calculations and checks are NOT instant and a lot of compromising is needed on locations/commands etc - this is much more processor heavy than some might think).
It doesn't get better than this with current internet/server technology - CCP literally have to compensate also for slower connections to make for an overall 'seemingly' lag free gaming experience. Just be happy that it's hard to reach locking times that closes in on real server roundtrip times but always assume your server connection (when it comes to player interaction commands) is in the second(s) range and not your two-three ms digit "ping", because that's the truth. |
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Cromwell Savage
The Rock Hard Roosters
Villore Accords
35
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Posted - 2012.03.15 03:23:00 -
[31] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Maybe that's how it works, though I would be surprised if it was.
Don't forget that in Factional Warfare there a loads and loads of stealth bombers flying missions through camped gates the whole time.
They rarely get caught. In fact I have never seen one get caught unless they get bumped by a ceptor or get the bad luck to spawn with 2500m of someone.
If it worked like this I think we would see a lot more getting popped.
I used to catch them often enough in my thrasher to make it worth trying. However, after Incarna, my system/overview seems to lag just enough now that I stopped trying.
All in all, let's just say I won't be needing to buy Covert Ops cloaks any time soon.... |
Gergs Kuchwas
Mise en Abyme
0
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Posted - 2012.03.15 20:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
Lost my ship and pod that day too, they had an orca parked at the gate too that was boosting away.
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