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Petition: Wrecks are mine. I want aggro rights.

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Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.19 21:59:00 - [121] Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. Why 3 week old alts should live off someone else's lvl 4 mission without any risk at all? Anyone cares to explain instead of just forum l337 talk? Seriously, you haven't heard ANY arguments in support of the current situation? Have you been living under a rock for the past year? Have you not even read the thread you are posting in? Allow me to sum up for you: CCP has mentioned that they had this feature before, but people abused it by baiting others into salvaging wrecks that the owners had absolutely no intention of salvaging themselves. CCP's standing policy is: if you don't salvage it, everyone else should have the right to salvage it instead. Wrecks are not yours. CCP has said so. Wrecks are not yours. Salvage rights belong to the first person to salvage. And do you really want to appear on someone's killrights list over a couple of charred circuits? especially when they've already proved they can find your mission deadspaces? And those are just from the first page of this thread. Your arguments are bad because you come off as only whining that it's all too hard for you. You support this notion by posting with an alt and thus too afraid to stand by your words. "deal with it", "play WoW" and "Cry more" etc. are excellent responses to a stupid whine, which this is. My advice to you: Read up on the situation. Read the dev blogs pertaining to this and learn why it changed. Try to understand CCP's vision, and then make up your mind if you want to continue playing this game or not. If you don't, I can hold on to your stuff. Your main's stuff that is. Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Estephania	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:01:00 - [122] Edited by: Estephania on 19/11/2007 22:06:45 Originally by: Myshella Drake Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. are you blind or cannot read? Your extensive collection of threads only shows that there is a problem. It also has several solutions how to help mission runners to protect the wrecks (something that you don't agree with). I have yet to find absolutely ANY arguments in support of the current situation except "adapt or die" or "stfu"; those are strong arguments, but they hardly prove anything. May be a threadnought should be created so that the things would start moving in the right direction About "baiting others" argument. Don't be baited and use your head (or take the risk) it's that simple. Killrights? He's invited to try, may be he's in for another harsh disappointment and killrights extension. If he wins, then he wins, as I said: you win some, you lose some.
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:08:00 - [123] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 22:10:11 Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Myshella Drake Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. are you blind or cannot read? Your extensive collection of threads only shows that there is a problem. It also has several solutions how to help mission runners to protect the wrecks (something that you don't agree with). I have yet to find absolutely ANY arguments in support of the current situation except "adapt or die" or "stfu"; those are strong arguments, but they hardly prove anything. May be a threadnought should be created so that the things would start moving in the right direction My pervious comment still stands...btw you must be a fast reader to get through those threads that quickly..if you even bothered to that is PS. look above..is that clear enough ? ... ty Ki An ------------------
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:22:00 - [124] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 19/11/2007 22:24:37 Originally by: Estephania I have yet to find absolutely ANY arguments in support of the current situation except "adapt or die" or "stfu" You know, you keep on saying crap like that when people have done you the courtesy of trying to discuss it reasonably, and pretty soon that's all Estephania posts are going to get. edit: I guess that explains the alt. Respectable enough to post with, but too metagamey to salvage with, eh? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
SirMoric	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:26:00 - [125] Want to do something safe in EVE? Then go salvaging other peoples wrecks. It's FREE, CONCORD protects you and should you loose a ship, it's probably only a cheap destroyer. Who's the whiner? The one who want to salvage what he's killing? Or the one trying to protect his FREE/SAFE income? rgds
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:30:00 - [126] Originally by: SirMoric Want to do something safe in EVE? Then go salvaging other peoples wrecks. It's FREE, CONCORD protects you and should you loose a ship, it's probably only a cheap destroyer. Who's the whiner? The one who want to salvage what he's killing? Or the one trying to protect his FREE/SAFE income? rgds You mean the same kind of FREE/SAFE income that mission running in high sec provides? This is freaking unbelieveable. I mean, I could understand you if the salvagers actually stole your loot, your bounties, your mission reward and your standings, but you are actually whining because you feel you are entitled to a profession that provides bounties, standings, loot, loyalty points AND salvage without any risks or consequences. My god! Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:35:00 - [127] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 19/11/2007 22:35:49 Originally by: SirMoric Want to do something safe in EVE? Then go salvaging other peoples wrecks. It's FREE, CONCORD protects you and should you loose a ship, it's probably only a cheap destroyer. Who's the whiner? The one who want to salvage what he's killing? Or the one trying to protect his FREE/SAFE income? I completely disagree that salvaging is completely free or safe for anybody. I'll just copy and paste what I wrote about it in a thread earlier about salvaging vs. mission running: They both have some risk. In neither case is it overwhelming, assuming the player is smart and prepared. The salvager does run some risk of ship destruction from NPC aggro switching, environmental effects in one or two missions, and the chance that other people will resort to suicide tactics. All in all, I wouldn't call these huge risks--probably somewhat less than the average mission runner--and the consequences are often very cheap. But the risk is not, in your words, "none". OTOH, risk in EVE does not consist solely of one's ship exploding. The main risk the salvager faces is burning up time and probes and getting little or nothing for his effort on any given attempt, particularly if mission runners would smarten up. Contrast that to the mission runner, who has a never-ending, nearly guaranteed supply of bounties, completion rewards, and LP, almost entirely separated from the actions of other players. Note as well that unlike salvage, the first two items are direct wallet injections, requiring no further effort or interaction to cash in on. Additionally, he has the best chance of getting salvage if he's at all intelligent about it...and probably even if he's not. All in all, I'd call the risks here fairly balanced with each other. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:39:00 - [128] Originally by: SirMoric Want to do something safe in EVE? Then go salvaging other peoples wrecks. It's FREE, CONCORD protects you and should you loose a ship, it's probably only a cheap destroyer. Who's the whiner? The one who want to salvage what he's killing? Or the one trying to protect his FREE/SAFE income? rgds Please never comment on a profession you obviously know nothing about...Its not free (scan probes, equipment, rigs, ships, skills). Concord dosent protect me... and a 'ninja salvager' probably doesnt use a destroyer as it doesnt suit whats needed, i know i dont...And we arent the ones posting threads whining now are we. And salvaging missions is not as safe as you think...Ever warped in on recon 2/3 ? ------------------
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:44:00 - [129] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. Why 3 week old alts should live off someone else's lvl 4 mission without any risk at all? Anyone cares to explain instead of just forum l337 talk? Seriously, you haven't heard ANY arguments in support of the current situation? Have you been living under a rock for the past year? Have you not even read the thread you are posting in? Allow me to sum up for you: CCP has mentioned that they had this feature before, but people abused it by baiting others into salvaging wrecks that the owners had absolutely no intention of salvaging themselves. CCP's standing policy is: if you don't salvage it, everyone else should have the right to salvage it instead. Wrecks are not yours. CCP has said so. Wrecks are not yours. Salvage rights belong to the first person to salvage. And do you really want to appear on someone's killrights list over a couple of charred circuits? especially when they've already proved they can find your mission deadspaces? And those are just from the first page of this thread. Your arguments are bad because you come off as only whining that it's all too hard for you. You support this notion by posting with an alt and thus too afraid to stand by your words. "deal with it", "play WoW" and "Cry more" etc. are excellent responses to a stupid whine, which this is. My advice to you: Read up on the situation. Read the dev blogs pertaining to this and learn why it changed. Try to understand CCP's vision, and then make up your mind if you want to continue playing this game or not. If you don't, I can hold on to your stuff. Your main's stuff that is. /end of thread after this point. Conclusively pwnt. ------------------------------------------------ Join Macrointel!
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:45:00 - [130] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: SirMoric Want to do something safe in EVE? Then go salvaging other peoples wrecks. It's FREE, CONCORD protects you and should you loose a ship, it's probably only a cheap destroyer. Who's the whiner? The one who want to salvage what he's killing? Or the one trying to protect his FREE/SAFE income? rgds You mean the same kind of FREE/SAFE income that mission running in high sec provides? The ironing is delicious Really, high sec mission runners should be the last people to use the 'no risk' argument. Talk about a mindless money-faucet. Fit for rat resists, jump in, roll head on keyboard, watch wallet flash.

Estephania	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:50:00 - [131] Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Ki An Originally by: SirMoric Want to do something safe in EVE? Then go salvaging other peoples wrecks. It's FREE, CONCORD protects you and should you loose a ship, it's probably only a cheap destroyer. Who's the whiner? The one who want to salvage what he's killing? Or the one trying to protect his FREE/SAFE income? rgds You mean the same kind of FREE/SAFE income that mission running in high sec provides? The ironing is delicious Really, high sec mission runners should be the last people to use the 'no risk' argument. Talk about a mindless money-faucet. Fit for rat resists, jump in, roll head on keyboard, watch wallet flash. There are low-risk ISK faucets. High-sec missions are one of them. Invention is another, T2 production is yet another one. Yet you seem so much focused on missions while your alt (may be) puts another newly produced Astarte on the market.
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:00:00 - [132] Originally by: Estephania There are low-risk ISK faucets. High-sec missions are one of them. Invention is another, T2 production is yet another one. Yet you seem so much focused on missions while your alt (may be) puts another newly produced Astarte on the market. I thought this thread was a whine about salvage rights...if you have nothing more on topic to add please go away ------------------
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:02:00 - [133] Originally by: Estephania There are low-risk ISK faucets. High-sec missions are one of them. Invention is another, T2 production is yet another one. Yet you seem so much focused on missions while your alt (may be) puts another newly produced Astarte on the market. Not going to argue that there aren't other low risk professions, but to truly compare to of them you have to look at time vs risk/reward. To get to lvl 4 missions require perhaps a month of mission running (casual at that). Then you're home safe, a never ending high-yield isk faucet. Invention takes a whole lot more initial investment. To invent ships, you need a stream of researched BPC's for that ship. You need skills worth at least 200 mil. You need datacores and other ingredients worth a couple of millions, and you need a ship interface worth around 500mil. We're looking at an investment of around 750 mil or so just to START doing invention (on ships). After all this, there is NO guarantee that your invention will succeed. You may lose all your data cores and ingredients save for the interface, and not get ANYTHING to show for it. Even if you do succeed, you have to sell the finished product in an ever more crowded market. The days of the 2000% markups are over. Before you've even got your initial investment back you're months down the line. Now tell me that the two are comparable. Please. Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:07:00 - [134] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Estephania Now tell me that the two are comparable. Please. They're comparable... Frist u gotta bye a 40m sp toon ethn u bye a torp cnr w/offiser lewt and u can run mishs or u die big big isk takes to du mishs -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:07:00 - [135] I could care less about the hisec mission running bears who complain about wreck theft. What ****es me off is when I blast a T2 fitted battleship and don't get the loot because there's 10 haulers/destroyers sitting right next to the guy as he explodes. They take all the loots risk free and I'm left with nothing but a killmail. It's quite frusterating to risk your ships every day, paying war fees, surviving on pvp loot alone... yet not being able to kill the vultures who steal your loot because concord protects them. That's clearly broken.
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:15:00 - [136] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 23:15:29 Originally by: Kruel I could care less about the hisec mission running bears who complain about wreck theft. What ****es me off is when I blast a T2 fitted battleship and don't get the loot because there's 10 haulers/destroyers sitting right next to the guy as he explodes. They take all the loots risk free and I'm left with nothing but a killmail. It's quite frusterating to risk your ships every day, paying war fees, surviving on pvp loot alone... yet not being able to kill the vultures who steal your loot because concord protects them. That's clearly broken. Are you talking about SALVAGE? or LOOT...I think LOOT has an agg timer on it last time i checked...what are you complaining about? ------------------
Estephania	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:16:00 - [137] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Estephania There are low-risk ISK faucets. High-sec missions are one of them. Invention is another, T2 production is yet another one. Yet you seem so much focused on missions while your alt (may be) puts another newly produced Astarte on the market. Not going to argue that there aren't other low risk professions, but to truly compare to of them you have to look at time vs risk/reward. To get to lvl 4 missions require perhaps a month of mission running (casual at that). Then you're home safe, a never ending high-yield isk faucet. Invention takes a whole lot more initial investment. To invent ships, you need a stream of researched BPC's for that ship. You need skills worth at least 200 mil. You need datacores and other ingredients worth a couple of millions, and you need a ship interface worth around 500mil. We're looking at an investment of around 750 mil or so just to START doing invention (on ships). After all this, there is NO guarantee that your invention will succeed. You may lose all your data cores and ingredients save for the interface, and not get ANYTHING to show for it. Even if you do succeed, you have to sell the finished product in an ever more crowded market. The days of the 2000% markups are over. Before you've even got your initial investment back you're months down the line. Now tell me that the two are comparable. Please. To turn missions into a never-ending ISK fountain (so you breeze through lvl 4's), you have to get a bit more than a month of mission running: very good sp, CNR or other faction ship, faction/officer staff and may be some implants. Take into account that you can also lose it (not likely but still), while invention staff stays with you and no chance whatsoever to lose it.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:19:00 - [138] Originally by: Estephania To turn missions into a never-ending ISK fountain (so you breeze through lvl 4's), you have to get a bit more than a month of mission running: very good sp, CNR or other faction ship, faction/officer staff and may be some implants. Take into account that you can also lose it (not likely but still), while invention staff stays with you and no chance whatsoever to lose it. What? I turned my production alt (only sp's in industry etc.) and trained him into a raven. That took about a week. I ran missions 'til I got to lvl 4s, which took about two weeks, and now I run them solo with no trouble. At first I did them all in a completely T1 fitted raven. I upgraded to T2 because I felt I could afford it. Also, I have never lost a ship to a mission unless I did something incredibly stupid like going afk when shot at by 10 battleships. The argument that you NEED a CNR, faction mods and implants to run lvl 4s effectively is laughable. Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:23:00 - [139] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 23:25:13 Originally by: Estephania To turn missions into a never-ending ISK fountain (so you breeze through lvl 4's), you have to get a bit more than a month of mission running: very good sp, CNR or other faction ship, faction/officer staff and may be some implants. Take into account that you can also lose it (not likely but still), while invention staff stays with you and no chance whatsoever to lose it. What a load of crap, i breeze through lvl 4s with a standard raven and little t2 gear...I only have 12 mil SP on this char and no fansy implants. You must really suck if you need that much gear ------------------
Estephania	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:24:00 - [140] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Estephania To turn missions into a never-ending ISK fountain (so you breeze through lvl 4's), you have to get a bit more than a month of mission running: very good sp, CNR or other faction ship, faction/officer staff and may be some implants. Take into account that you can also lose it (not likely but still), while invention staff stays with you and no chance whatsoever to lose it. What? I turned my production alt (only sp's in industry etc.) and trained him into a raven. That took about a week. I ran missions 'til I got to lvl 4s, which took about two weeks, and now I run them solo with no trouble. At first I did them all in a completely T1 fitted raven. I upgraded to T2 because I felt I could afford it. Also, I have never lost a ship to a mission unless I did something incredibly stupid like going afk when shot at by 10 battleships. The argument that you NEED a CNR, faction mods and implants to run lvl 4s effectively is laughable. So, you're telling me that you've trained a char for Raven in a week

Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:27:00 - [141] Originally by: Myshella Drake Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 23:15:29 Originally by: Kruel I could care less about the hisec mission running bears who complain about wreck theft. What ***es me off is when I blast a T2 fitted battleship and don't get the loot because there's 10 haulers/destroyers sitting right next to the guy as he explodes. They take all the loots risk free and I'm left with nothing but a killmail. It's quite frusterating to risk your ships every day, paying war fees, surviving on pvp loot alone... yet not being able to kill the vultures who steal your loot because concord protects them. That's clearly broken. Are you talking about SALVAGE? or LOOT...I think LOOT has an agg timer on it last time i checked...what are you complaining about? So this is the story. Pretend that you're in Alliance P and you just killed some poor mission bear's raven. The problem is that jackasses follow Alliance P's members about and steal the LOOT* from the wreck that Alliance P just blew up. Alliance P's member gets no kill rights on said jackasses. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:34:00 - [142] Originally by: Estephania So, you're telling me that you've trained a char for Raven in a week Yes. I was already flying Caldari cruisers, and I had basic shield skills. I needed to train Caldari BS to II and Cruise Missiles and I was more or less ready to go. Do you want to continue asking pointless and irrelevant questions or do you wish to contribute to the argument. Not that you seem to be able to. Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:36:00 - [143] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Myshella Drake Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 23:15:29 Originally by: Kruel I could care less about the hisec mission running bears who complain about wreck theft. What ***es me off is when I blast a T2 fitted battleship and don't get the loot because there's 10 haulers/destroyers sitting right next to the guy as he explodes. They take all the loots risk free and I'm left with nothing but a killmail. It's quite frusterating to risk your ships every day, paying war fees, surviving on pvp loot alone... yet not being able to kill the vultures who steal your loot because concord protects them. That's clearly broken. Are you talking about SALVAGE? or LOOT...I think LOOT has an agg timer on it last time i checked...what are you complaining about? So this is the story. Pretend that you're in Alliance P and you just killed some poor mission bear's raven. The problem is that jackasses follow Alliance P's members about and steal the LOOT* from the wreck that Alliance P just blew up. Alliance P's member gets no kill rights on said jackasses. Liang So basically this has nothing to do with salvaging and you are arguing that ppl should get kill rights to ppl who LOOT wrecks/cans that isnt theirs...dont the said jackarses get an agg timer on them from LOOTING the wreck, if so your and you corp members/gang can shoot them ------------------
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:38:00 - [144] Originally by: Myshella Drake So basically this has nothing to do with salvaging and you are arguing that ppl should get kill rights to ppl who LOOT wrecks/cans that isnt theirs...dont the said jackarses get an agg timer on them from LOOTING the wreck, if so your and you corp members/gang can shoot them Yeah, but I am not Kruel... I just know where (s)he's coming from. IMO, dual wreck ownership, and Unnerf Alliance P! Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Estephania	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:40:00 - [145] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Estephania So, you're telling me that you've trained a char for Raven in a week Yes. I was already flying Caldari cruisers, and I had basic shield skills. I needed to train Caldari BS to II and Cruise Missiles and I was more or less ready to go. Do you want to continue asking pointless and irrelevant questions or do you wish to contribute to the argument. Not that you seem to be able to. I'm getting tired of all this staff, especially when ppl "invent" arguments to support their point of view. Raven at lvl II with little engineering, missile, drone, etc skills can breeze through lvl 4's. You should barely be able to undock in the Raven, nothing more.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:41:00 - [146] Originally by: Jobe darkhunter If you want eve to flag wrecks so that only you or your corp can loot wrecks please post here. salvaging a wreck should dump the contents into your cargo, not jet a can (i.e. if you don't have cargo space for loot = can't salvage). This would also grant aggro flag if the wreck has any loot items. http://www.voogru.com/images/signature/farmers.jpg
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:42:00 - [147] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Myshella Drake So basically this has nothing to do with salvaging and you are arguing that ppl should get kill rights to ppl who LOOT wrecks/cans that isnt theirs...dont the said jackarses get an agg timer on them from LOOTING the wreck, if so your and you corp members/gang can shoot them Yeah, but I am not Kruel... I just know where (s)he's coming from. IMO, dual wreck ownership, and Unnerf Alliance P! Liang I said you where Kruel? ------------------
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:49:00 - [148] Originally by: Estephania I'm getting tired of all this staff, especially when ppl "invent" arguments to support their point of view. Raven at lvl II with little engineering, missile, drone, etc skills can breeze through lvl 4's. You should barely be able to undock in the Raven, nothing more. So, you are calling me a liar then? Who's your main again? Stop being such a whiney wuss and say what you actually mean: You want the game changed so that you don't have to face any risk what so ever in anything you do. That is never going to happen, so you might as well give up now and go play something else. Post with your main on the forums. It's not like you let people know your phone number and home adress. It just lets us know that you are standing by what you post on the forums. Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.11.20 00:02:00 - [149] If it wasn't so unprofitable to salvage I would go around especially to salvage all these ignorant level 4 missioners. You guys who whine about noobs salvaging "your" wrecks are the most pathetic bunch of people in Eve. I even tell noobies how to go about salvaging your missions. The best thing CCP should do is put all level 4 missions in low sec. Be great to see how you guys cry when your faction fitted CNR get's blown up by pirates.
Estephania	Posted - 2007.11.20 00:09:00 - [150] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Estephania I'm getting tired of all this staff, especially when ppl "invent" arguments to support their point of view. Raven at lvl II with little engineering, missile, drone, etc skills can breeze through lvl 4's. You should barely be able to undock in the Raven, nothing more. So, you are calling me a liar then? Who's your main again? Stop being such a whiney wuss and say what you actually mean: You want the game changed so that you don't have to face any risk what so ever in anything you do. That is never going to happen, so you might as well give up now and go play something else. Post with your main on the forums. It's not like you let people know your phone number and home adress. It just lets us know that you are standing by what you post on the forums. I see no point in arguing any more on this. We'll never agree. You think that it will nerf mission-runners somehow. I think that it goes against general game mechanics. I also don't remember saying anywhere that I want everything that I do in the game to be risk free that's what you think I've said.



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