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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.11.21 17:12:00 -
[61]
This thread starts to develop into a flashing warning sign to never ever trust the so called financial elite of the market forums, at least not when it comes to finances.
No offense, but this isnt the first time many of you defend total failures and scams until its no longer possible to defend them. Yeh, you all have ISK in it, and you trade eDignity for the possibility of getting it back.
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Matalino
Gallente Datacore Harvesting
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Posted - 2007.11.21 17:16:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers No offense, but this isnt the first time many of you defend total failures and scams until its no longer possible to defend them.
I am not trying to defend either a total failure or scam. I am just asking that we not mix the two up.
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.11.21 17:34:00 -
[63]
A total failure is even worse then a scam, because even a newb in a mining osprey would generate more profit then the IPO in question.
But this thread (or at least my comments) arent just about that particular IPO, but the forums attitude in general.
Trust has to be earned, not gifted. Not only that, it has to be earned again and again.
Playing this game thinking that there are real humans behind the avatars, and that eSlandering hurts their real feelings is what makes you weak. Because under those assumptions, its better to avoid player interaction at all and treat it Eve as an alt management simulation. My employees (alts) rarely throw emo fits or demand absolute proof that they indeed robbed me of 40b ISK.
As for the particular situation. An neutral, trustworthy entity is expected to not let their personal desires (salvage personal investment in total failure / scam IPO) affect their actions in the name of the "greater good" (healthy financial scene).
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jongalt
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Posted - 2007.11.21 17:55:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Trust has to be earned, not gifted. Not only that, it has to be earned again and again.
i appreciate your point of view. however, i believe trust should be freely given, and then revoked as the situation merits.
color me - in shadarle's terms - "naive".
however, i believe eve is a world that you (as a player) make. the designers have built in opportunities for cruelty and sadism, that doesnt mean one is obligated to participate or condone those actions.
-jg.
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Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:15:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
No offense, but this isnt the first time many of you defend total failures and scams until its no longer possible to defend them. Yeh, you all have ISK in it, and you trade eDignity for the possibility of getting it back.
I assume you are talking about me. What complete rubbish. I don't think anyone here has defended Wylker in any way. Obviously you cannot comprehend the difference between a failure and a scam. A failure may result in partial loss whilst a scam results in full loss. Of course you don't care either way, you are just here for the troll and will pop back to your normal forum ways once the drama here is over.
Your only intention in this thread, and this MD forum is and has ever been to cause trouble.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:27:00 -
[66]
I can understand investors are worried they will lose their investment. But this is one of those catch-22's. If it is discussed now, some people will say Wylker is going to be pushed over the edge. If it is discussed after then some people will say to just drop it as it already happened and there is no reason to continue reliving it.
I personally don't want to discuss PSI only, I want to discuss the entire player run corp market. The way that people defend IPO's and apologize for them when they clearly do not deserve it. Every IPO isn't going to be great. Meeting expectations for an IPO should not be considered good, it should be considered merely adequate. Exceeding expectations should be the goal. If you fail to reach expectation it should be frowned upon.
Thanking people for running a great IPO that didn't even manage to exceed minimum payments is not helpful. It sets a bad precedent that an IPO can be mediocre and still be considered great. The standard should not be "He didn't run away with all my money so he did a great job!". Yet you constantly see people congratulating CEO's that they payed back their initial investment upon closure of the IPO. This is the bare minimum that should be expected.
We need to raise the standards and the only way to do that is to label great IPO's as great, crappy ones and crappy and anything in the middle as average or decent. Doing otherwise throws off the scales on which we judge IPO's.
I have called two IPO's scams. Both meet the definition of scam and I explained precisely why in both cases. If that means I'm crying wolf in someones mind then that is fine with me. I am looking at this from a generic investors point of view, not an investor in PSI's point of view. Perhaps Wylker will be pushed over the edge from all the people being harsh on him... but if that is the case then it is his own character flaw. Ignoring the truth because someone may throw a temper tantrum is a bit absurd. It just means future scammers will have another tool at their disposal to avoid criticism. They can use the threat of scam as a means of silencing criticism.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:30:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe A failure may result in partial loss whilst a scam results in full loss.
This is the problem, you're using your own personal meanings of these words. You believe these words to mean a certain thing... when they do not actually mean that. You're talking about complete theft... scam's can occur without a theft of all investment.
Business failure could mean 100% loss, scam could mean 100% loss. They could also both mean 0% loss. It all depends on the particulars and on the intent to deceive or mislead.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Matalino
Gallente Datacore Harvesting
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Shadarle I personally don't want to discuss PSI only, I want to discuss the entire player run corp market. The way that people defend IPO's and apologize for them when they clearly do not deserve it. Every IPO isn't going to be great. Meeting expectations for an IPO should not be considered good, it should be considered merely adequate. Exceeding expectations should be the goal. If you fail to reach expectation it should be frowned upon.
Thanking people for running a great IPO that didn't even manage to exceed minimum payments is not helpful. It sets a bad precedent that an IPO can be mediocre and still be considered great. The standard should not be "He didn't run away with all my money so he did a great job!". Yet you constantly see people congratulating CEO's that they payed back their initial investment upon closure of the IPO. This is the bare minimum that should be expected.
We need to raise the standards and the only way to do that is to label great IPO's as great, crappy ones and crappy and anything in the middle as average or decent. Doing otherwise throws off the scales on which we judge IPO's.
It would seem that there is a tendancy to to rate IPO's to a bell curve, rather than your fixed standard.
With the quality of IPO's lately, meeting expectations would seem to fall in the top portion of that curve, while breaking even hits the middle, complete loss falling in the bottom, with the level of praise given to the CEO matching where on that curve their operation falls.
Sure, the standard could be raised, but are any CEO's willing to raise to it?
Do we want CEO's to set their promises to investors lower just so that they can be exceeded?
I am having a hard time thinking of an IPO that has exceeded the expectations set forth to investors. Are there any IPO's out there that meet that definition of great?
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:52:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Shadarle Business failure could mean 100% loss, scam could mean 100% loss. They could also both mean 0% loss. It all depends on the particulars and on the intent to deceive or mislead.
Yes but in this case we assume based on the information we have been told:
Wylker has either isk or assets near to the tune of the IPO amount.
If Wylker accepts a business failure then X billion will be lost, but a lot will still be recovered. ie, if he tried to say it was a failure and yet only return 50% of the investment money then we would consider it him scamming part of the money as we know his assets should pretty much match the IPO size (not counting the downgrade when liquidating)
That's what I meant by it. If his business fails, all the data points to the ability to reimburse a good portion of people's investments back. If the business turns scam, then no-one gets anything.
And I do agree with your post above that to a point. But it does feel like you are using your ISS agression against the PSI IPO.
Anyway, lets look at things as a whole if you guys prefer. But Shadarle you just said we shouldn't congratulate failure. I agree completely. However I question why the person who just wrote that, also said this a matter of hours ago.
Would one not expect you to question the OP of that thread? To ask why he was carrying so much, to not just pat him on the back and send him on his way after a 30% +/- loss in the corp value and shareholders funds? I have nothing at all against Kirjava in that thread I am merely using it as an example to find out why we have these double standards?
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:54:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Matalino I am having a hard time thinking of an IPO that has exceeded the expectations set forth to investors. Are there any IPO's out there that meet that definition of great?
Different question: When you take 40b+ of public money, dont pay anything out for months, insult people who raise valid concerns, steal dividends while brokering your own shares, lie about losses etc, and when people call you a slacker or a scammer, enjoy everyone else jumping on them and flamming them to hell just because you used to be great back in beta. Under these circumstances, would you say "nah, not good enough, i need to improve"?
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:56:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Matalino Do we want CEO's to set their promises to investors lower just so that they can be exceeded?
My response to this would be a big YES. Assume worst case scenario. Then assume something a little worse. Then tell the public that final assumption. I prefer to expect lower and be gifted with higher rather than the alternative.
WWW.EVE-BANK.NET
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Matalino
Gallente Datacore Harvesting
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:01:00 -
[72]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Originally by: Matalino Do we want CEO's to set their promises to investors lower just so that they can be exceeded?
My response to this would be a big YES. Assume worst case scenario. Then assume something a little worse. Then tell the public that final assumption. I prefer to expect lower and be gifted with higher rather than the alternative.
So in the case of my IPO, would I exceed expectations if I continue to pay out dividends after reaching the target return of captial plus interest, or would that just be meeting the minimum requirements as I have now said that I would continue to pay out 50% of the on going profits until June 2009?
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:16:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Matalino would I exceed expectations...
Of course you would. The design of your IPO means the principle + interest is repaid over the course of time leading up to June 2009. There isn't a 100% return at the end of that rainbow, it just stops once we get there. Therefore anything beyond recievables as of June 2009 then it will always be considered a bonus or exceeding expectations.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:37:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Shadarle on 21/11/2007 19:39:25
Originally by: Matalino Do we want CEO's to set their promises to investors lower just so that they can be exceeded?
Yes. I want CEO's to set minimum expectations at just that, minimum expectations. I want them to set goals at reasonable levels as well. This way we can judge how they did. But what smart business person sets expectations so high that they can at best only meet them?
Originally by: Matalino
I am having a hard time thinking of an IPO that has exceeded the expectations set forth to investors. Are there any IPO's out there that meet that definition of great?
Ambo beat expectations in an amazing fashion (plus offered VERY detailed logs of everything he traded). FuryBank has greatly exceeded expectations (plus offered extensive documentation). RHCRP beat expectations. DuskBlade has beat expectations every month so far I believe (and has been honest about RL problems with investors, yet still beat expectations).
Then we have other IPO's that have become losses it seems, such as NanoTechInc. Others haven't payed divs in months and are run by big names on these forums. Some have just met expectations month after month.
We have a wide gamut of IPO's out there performing at all the different levels. The ones I mentioned were just off the top of my head. I'm surprised you seem to think we have mostly under performing and mediocre IPO's out there as I feel there are more above average IPO's currently, but perhaps that is because I've avoided a lot of the ones that looked bad from the launch (such as capital production IPO's when the capital market was already in horrid shape).
Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe
Anyway, lets look at things as a whole if you guys prefer. But Shadarle you just said we shouldn't congratulate failure. I agree completely. However I question why the person who just wrote that, also said this a matter of hours ago.
I fail to see how they are even remotely the same. Where did I congratulate anything. I told him to not divulge information as it could be used against him. I said it was disappointing it happened and then countered a belief he had about it being an attack. I then said I hope he recovers. What part of that is a congratulation of any sort? I was quite annoyed that he lost the freighter... but what exactly could he have done to stop it? I've been suicide ganked twice myself, once with an empty ship. There was nothing I could have done either time. So I fail to see how it is his fault unless we see some evidence that he did something stupid and caused this to happen.
On top of that he has actually come here and told us it happened. He didn't run and hide, he communicated. Communication has always been really big with me. Which makes him a far bigger and wiser man than Wylker. He probably felt horrible and very afraid of what we would say, but he came forward with the information anyways. I do think that is honorable.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Matalino
Gallente Datacore Harvesting
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:46:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Shadarle I'm surprised you seem to think we have mostly under performing and mediocre IPO's out there as I feel there are more above average IPO's currently
I guess that is because there seems (atleast to me) to be more threads whining about the failures than praising the successes.
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.21 20:34:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Shadarle I'm surprised you seem to think we have mostly under performing and mediocre IPO's out there as I feel there are more above average IPO's currently
I guess that is because there seems (atleast to me) to be more threads whining about the failures than praising the successes.
There are two explanations for this:
1. Humans recall negative memories more frequently than positive memories. 2. Humans are more likely to post out of annoyance than out of happiness on forums. This is why apartment finding websites are full of bad responses usually. People don't go through as much effort to thank people as they do to go after them.
This is why I've gone out of my way to post congrats to a few people who have done a job well done. I don't think many people read those threads... but I still try.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.11.21 20:41:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Matalino I am having a hard time thinking of an IPO that has exceeded the expectations set forth to investors. Are there any IPO's out there that meet that definition of great?
Several to include my previous projects. What you've seen is just a small portion of the market history. The only IPO's that are remembered, sadly, are the ones that screw people over. The successful ones are only remembered by those who benefited.
It's A GIRL!!!!! |
Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:07:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Matalino I am having a hard time thinking of an IPO that has exceeded the expectations set forth to investors. Are there any IPO's out there that meet that definition of great?
Several to include my previous projects. What you've seen is just a small portion of the market history. The only IPO's that are remembered, sadly, are the ones that screw people over. The successful ones are only remembered by those who benefited.
Perfect testament to this thread. It ignores the tons of successfull businesses out there that have succeeded even against the odds of a not so good business plan, or a lull in communication, or not so great english skills and focuses on 1 example assuming the sky is falling because someone who was trusted by almost a dozen people didn't live up to the expectation he promised he would.
The trolls are obviously saying they saw it happening the whole time. Those without vested interest enjoy the drama so are pushing it along to see if it becomes a scam, and those with a financial or market interest are trying to resolve the situation.
Anyway, to this day my trust in people as a whole hasn't been compromised. Sure we get the occasional people like Cally who slip past my BS meter, but most people I do interact with in-game don't let me down. Call it naive but when I see 10 (maybe 3-4 well known people) say they trust someone, then that's good enough for me.
So before I said if I could take it back, that's all I would change. But that's actually wrong. If I could go back and do it again I would still have likely put my trust into this venture. My gains due to my trust levels over the past year have probably been closer to 9b, compared to the losses (zero). If I lose my 480m worth of Wylker stock I will accept it and move on. However until Wylker says it's a scam, I will do everything I can to help people (including myself of course) get PSI resolved.
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Calgorac
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.11.24 03:33:00 -
[79]
ttt
Latest News |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.12.21 20:53:00 -
[80]
hmm I see that flood that DS refers to in the OP starting to pick up in surge again. For those of you out there thinking of investing do it wisely. --
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.21 20:55:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Treelox hmm I see that flood that DS refers to in the OP starting to pick up in surge again. For those of you out there thinking of investing do it wisely.
Indeed. It had been quiet for a month now... and people are back.
Just FYI, Riethe will be making a new IPO shortly and will be looking to hold it over everyone's heads if he is able to get more money this time in a scam than his last attempt.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.12.27 00:07:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Treelox hmm I see that flood that DS refers to in the OP starting to pick up in surge again. For those of you out there thinking of investing do it wisely.
Indeed. It had been quiet for a month now... and people are back.
You know Shadarle, I think you and I and a few others of the MD regulars actually read this thread. It seems like so many others just either dont get it, or seem to skip it over in the list for them magic letters IPO.
It also might be that people lack the vocabulary and RL finicial historical knowledge to understand exactly what "irrational exuberance" means. Well hopefully idiot proofing it and providing a link so the context can be understood will help a few more of the lemmings.
Just for fun here is the Yatta flashvid that made the term popular with many non-econmist types. The point is pretty much similar to Greenspans when he intially used the phrase in the '90s. Put for those of you who have a hard time understanding Japanese here is the wiki explanation. --
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.27 00:14:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Treelox hmm I see that flood that DS refers to in the OP starting to pick up in surge again. For those of you out there thinking of investing do it wisely.
Indeed. It had been quiet for a month now... and people are back.
And how little it surprises me
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated) |
SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.06 16:24:00 -
[84]
it continues and constantly people will lose more cash than they gain because if just 1 out of 5 scams you lose
making security more available and reputable security holders publicized will go a long way to curbing this - but educating the masses about why one ipo is not effective over another is a whole new ball game Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Dystressed
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Posted - 2008.01.06 18:09:00 -
[85]
Originally by: SiJira it continues and constantly people will lose more cash than they gain because if just 1 out of 5 scams you lose
making security more available and reputable security holders publicized will go a long way to curbing this - but educating the masses about why one ipo is not effective over another is a whole new ball game
I find this utterly BS, I have invested over 3 Billion in the last year and all but Tiny have continued to pay out dividends or completely buy back so that I didn't lose money. I held shares in ISSO, FIN, FIN-U, Gain's Trading, Ambo, Ionia's 6% Return etc...and have yet to lose money.
As mentioned earlier, I give out serious congrats to Ambo, he ran a short but very successful IPO that paid out well over IPO price. Also, there are quite a few dividend paying corps that are doing very well that don't hang around here and put up with winy little spinless brats such as yourself. Just some food for though.
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Ryu Kibegami
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Posted - 2008.01.06 23:19:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Treelox hmm I see that flood that DS refers to in the OP starting to pick up in surge again. For those of you out there thinking of investing do it wisely.
Indeed. It had been quiet for a month now... and people are back.
You know Shadarle, I think you and I and a few others of the MD regulars actually read this thread. It seems like so many others just either dont get it, or seem to skip it over in the list for them magic letters IPO.
It also might be that people lack the vocabulary and RL finicial historical knowledge to understand exactly what "irrational exuberance" means. Well hopefully idiot proofing it and providing a link so the context can be understood will help a few more of the lemmings.
Just for fun here is the Yatta flashvid that made the term popular with many non-econmist types. The point is pretty much similar to Greenspans when he intially used the phrase in the '90s. Put for those of you who have a hard time understanding Japanese here is the wiki explanation.
Treelox:
You can not idiot proof greed. People are always looking for the magic number, stock,invention or whatever to make fast money and hopefully not have to work to hard.
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.01.06 23:57:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ryu Kibegami
Treelox:
You can not idiot proof greed. People are always looking for the magic number, stock,invention or whatever to make fast money and hopefully not have to work to hard.
hehe i wasnt trying to idiot proof greed. I was only trying to idiot proof what "Irrational Exuberance" means and its historical context. Since I sadly dont think that many people who have read this thread and some who have responded to it dont know the term.
Yes I agree with you there are always people looking for the "I WIN" button in life and in money making. I just think you took my "idiot proofing" statement out of the context that I had intended.
:) --
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Treelox
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.03.14 12:32:00 -
[88]
Time I thought to bring this great knowledge base, back up to the front page. While currently it seems that there is not too much irrational exuberance occuring, it seemed time for a reminder. --
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Ray McCormack
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.14 13:42:00 -
[89]
Would the people on RESX buying FRPB at 1.3m because the 90d ROI indicates 10%+ returns (when the buy orders are filled at ~500k) be an example of this?
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:24:00 -
[90]
I pride myself on being irrationaly exuberant at least 94% of the time.
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