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Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2007.11.23 23:32:00 - [1] Yes I know that I am posting in CAOD and that what I am suggesting is best posted in Game Development but this really does effect us in CAOD ... I particpated in the first Fleet Fight on SISI today @ 11:00 GMT and found the number of particpants to be unreal in comparrison to what is really going on in within our universe. Every space monkey who has ever posted a whine or complaint about lag/desync just got a chance to do something positive about it but I noticed only 109 people in local today. Unless we give the Developers our full support by participating in these Singularity Fleet Fights and showing up in the force as we would for a fight on TQ, they will never fully realize lag/desync issues on the scale we need it resolved. Our lovely game is on the edge of another growth spurt and at times like now, EvE needs our voluteer support to make steps toward delivering the performance we want. Just one hour will give the Devs the picture they need. So come on people, let's us take full advantage of these invitations to make improvements. Help yourself by reading these Singularity Fleet Fights threads and showing up.
Aprudena Gist Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 23:36:00 - [2] 11 GMT is a stupid time to do it at. They should do it different times mostly Eastern US Prime-time because that's when the most people are on.
Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2007.11.23 23:41:00 - [3] Originally by: Aprudena Gist 11 GMT is a stupid time to do it at. They should do it different times mostly Eastern US Prime-time because that's when the most people are on. Then perhaps Alliances and Devs should work together and schedule quarterly simulations.
VoYvod Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:10:00 - [4] sisi allows more than 100 people to be logged in at the same time?
Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:25:00 - [5] Originally by: VoYvod sisi allows more than 100 people to be logged in at the same time? Yes. heya VoYvod!
7Z2	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:31:00 - [6] I really think it needs to be easier to get on to the test server, a seperate test client that is somehow different from the normal client would be nice, one that installs in its own directory by default and doesnt effect any of your normal client settings would make this a lot easier. I know im just doing it wrong and should pay attention to what i have to do etc but thats what im saying is the pain in the ass that keeps people from helping out.
Commander Thrawn Fluffy Rabbit Killers	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:35:00 - [7] problem i have with SISI is everytime they patch it. i can't seen to repatch it and have to reinstall a fresh install before i can install the SISI patch. its really a pain in the ass to do
VoYvod Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Cyriel Longinus Originally by: VoYvod sisi allows more than 100 people to be logged in at the same time? Yes. heya VoYvod! hey
Corstaad Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:48:00 - [9] I'd be more then happy to go to the test server. Problem is I don't want to change directory files just to play it. I'm sorry but there are other people that play computer games then techies. I tried and had to reload orginal eve, lost three hours of sp and cleaned my house.
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:51:00 - [10] I never notice these things until afterwards, don't generally read news items. If the devs/bh really want large numbers they need to contact alliance leaders in advance to get the message out. However, my experience is 100-150 ppl simulates a laggy fleet batle just nicely. Sisi lags a lot more easily than TQ don't forget. So I think they're good. _
Qu'ut Nez Minmatar Norges Sildesalgslag	Posted - 2007.11.24 04:15:00 - [11] Make it a contest. Alliance vs alliance. Winner gets Delve. ------ [SILD]
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2007.11.24 04:44:00 - [12] I dont think it helps with numbers that anarchy day turned out to be a huge letdown for most of those who wanted to take part. Also, doing a new database mirror in the days before a test puts many of us back a day or two, since it can sometimes take that long to actually get back to FD on SISI. We need public testing tools. A "move me there" button, a "give me those skills" button and more information on what needs testing. By putting all that into the hands of official bughunters CCP can control the process better, but miss out on a large number of potential testhours from more casual user of SISI. Poor planning, poor bugtracking, non-existant public testcase access and a general inability to document new features is what plaques the test environment. Without Bughunter membership, we're basically left in the dark with absolutely no reason to log on to SISI beyond answering the standard "please come help"-cries... Sure we have bughunters, but for large-scale loadtests it seems we need more people, so I'd suggest CCP re-think their approach for these loadtests or make do with the numbers they can get.
Socrates Nacht Tropical Killer Bananas Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.24 08:58:00 - [13] Just a note.. On SISI you can join a channel called "Moveme" (or possibly Move me) check in game.. If a GM or Dev are not busy they will transport you from wherever you are to FD-MLJ.
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.24 09:06:00 - [14] a) "moveme" channel was unmanned the last five times I was on SiSi. b) CCP should focus on smaller gang rewards instead of this blobby crap c) 90% of people on SiSi are there to test passive tanks or poly setups
Arbelith Sanjor Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.24 09:14:00 - [15] Lets scrim. Who wants to fight goonswarm?
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.24 09:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Arbelith Sanjor Lets scrim. Who wants to fight goonswarm? I tried to organise a meet-up on GoonSwarm TS but noone was interested.
Athelas Loraiel Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.11.24 12:57:00 - [17] add bonus days for participants. ITs not a lot fo money for CCP, but would draw ppls heavily.
Suboran Gallente Sphinx Inc Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.11.24 14:13:00 - [18] If they wanna get more participants they need to advertise the event beforehand. whenever i see opne of these i think... hmm i might join in ... ahh it was 4 hours ago owell
Marvn Riley Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:57:00 - [19] Edited by: Marvn Riley on 24/11/2007 17:58:24 Edited by: Marvn Riley on 24/11/2007 17:58:04 If they want to test desync issues, just setup a fleet fight outside the station with the test-server regulars... Then make an announcement that the ship graphics have been updated with the new trinity engine on the test server, and the ships are only for sale in FD-MLJ. There you go. Instant large fleet fight. Marvn
Nebuchadnezzar I Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.24 18:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Aprudena Gist 11 GMT is a stupid time to do it at. They should do it different times mostly Eastern US Prime-time because that's when the most people are on. That might be true for GS, but generally the game peaks at EU primetime, which would be 18.00+ eve time.
Varly GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:28:00 - [21] Edited by: Varly on 25/11/2007 02:29:20 Originally by: Aprudena Gist 11 GMT is a stupid time to do it at. They should do it different times mostly Eastern US Prime-time because that's when the most people are on. Doing it when it is most convenient for Iceland local time kills participation. CCP would get double the number of people on these things if they accommodated North American prime time Originally by: Nebuchadnezzar I That might be true for GS, but generally the game peaks at EU primetime, which would be 18.00+ eve time. This is simply untrue. A remedial survey of currently logged users on an hourly basis for a week would show how wrong this is.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.25 03:51:00 - [22] Edited by: Plutoinum on 25/11/2007 03:51:44 Originally by: 7Z2 I really think it needs to be easier to get on to the test server, a seperate test client that is somehow different from the normal client would be nice, one that installs in its own directory by default and doesnt effect any of your normal client settings would make this a lot easier. I know im just doing it wrong and should pay attention to what i have to do etc but thats what im saying is the pain in the ass that keeps people from helping out. Ok, I haven't been there, since the EVE clients store stuff in the Documents&Settings folder per default. So if you have to apply the "/end /LUA:OFF" flags manually, it my hinder some people. But before that getting on the test-server was quite easy. Just your evefolder, start the executable, let it patch and run. Only thing that has kept me off it lately is that the autopatcher usually doesn't work, if you are a few versions behind, like only 2 days sometimes. Then I have to copy again, either manually only copying the relevant files, less copy time, more work, or let it copy the whole folder and since I got only 1 harddisk, it's rattling for quite some time to do that. 2nd point why I'm not often there is that my skills are usually months behind there. So hmm, feels always like logging on an inferior char. Ok, if you want to find bugs, not a big issue, but most people surely go there to try new things out first and look for bugs, 2nd.
Necronomicon Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:55:00 - [23] Originally by: Aprudena Gist 11 GMT is a stupid time to do it at. They should do it different times mostly Eastern US Prime-time because that's when the most people are on. Problem being that FOFOFOFOFO is not a valid bug report :P KIA - Don't ask me, I was off grid.
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:32:00 - [24] the game eve is run as a free for all. nothing really documented, old stuff, things moved, need to do it on your own ... all good. this same approach will not work on your development area. 'move me' channel is an example. 'singularity' is another one, still in sticky. a quick blurb on a sticky that testing is happening. devs saying in local, 'we do testing, x up'. many people not knowing that not only the log server needs to started before the eve client, but some options need to be set otherwise the file is huge and can't be sent. actually had the devs tell this after the test was finished. ... eve is cool, devs are cool, ya ya everybody cool attitude does not work in real development and testing. things need to be explained clearly what is needed before things start otherwise you waste peoples time and they don't bother next time.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:50:00 - [25] I would participate, but unfortunatly ever since the EVE preferences were moved from the local EVE folders to the windows user account folders, my main install gets screwed up when I install SiSi.
McFly Path of Light R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:58:00 - [26] Sisi is not very useful when a pilot's skills are three months old and the client tears up your TQ client with the new folder assignments. I love sisi, it's a great tool for pilots to test out new gear, check out new setups with upcoming changes to ships or modules, changes in game mechanics in general. But crashing your TQ client, and all of your settings, because you couldn't figure out what the hell happened until wiping eve from your HD completely just to find out all you need to do was change a few files. -- --my opinions do not reflect that of my corp nor my alliance--
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:24:00 - [27] Edited by: Setana Manoro on 25/11/2007 17:24:30 Originally by: Cyriel Longinus Yes I know that I am posting in CAOD and that what I am suggesting is best posted in Game Development but this really does effect us in CAOD ... I particpated in the first Fleet Fight on SISI today @ 11:00 GMT and found the number of particpants to be unreal in comparrison to what is really going on in within our universe. Every space monkey who has ever posted a whine or complaint about lag/desync just got a chance to do something positive about it but I noticed only 109 people in local today. Unless we give the Developers our full support by participating in these Singularity Fleet Fights and showing up in the force as we would for a fight on TQ, they will never fully realize lag/desync issues on the scale we need it resolved. Our lovely game is on the edge of another growth spurt and at times like now, EvE needs our voluteer support to make steps toward delivering the performance we want. Just one hour will give the Devs the picture they need. So come on people, let's us take full advantage of these invitations to make improvements. Help yourself by reading these Singularity Fleet Fights threads and showing up. Could it be that CCP's selection of the time is crap ? Why yes, it is. Also, if something is to change, then that is the way CCP's relations are to it's subscribers. I was in some of these events/tests/whatever and after about 2-3 i finally had enough. They don't move you in time, they let you stay in channel and don't tell you they have enough peeps for now, and you sit there thinking why the hell aren't you playing on TQ when you are supposed to be having fun. PS: In case you are wondering why the tone, reformulate your post. It is a request, not a duty. PS: Long time no see VoyVod. :) Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Justin Morgan Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:38:00 - [28] The fact is these "desync" issues need to be worked out on tranquility not sisi, these problems are present on tranquility at the moment so if ccp would stop "adding new features" and fixed the old ones that havent been sorted out since the last time they "added new features" we wouldnt be in this situation right now. CCP please stop adding new crap to the game when u cant even keep existing stuff working as it should. Stop all development untill the existing problems are sorted out. please :)
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.25 22:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Justin Morgan The fact is these "desync" issues need to be worked out on tranquility not sisi, these problems are present on tranquility at the moment so if ccp would stop "adding new features" and fixed the old ones that havent been sorted out since the last time they "added new features" we wouldnt be in this situation right now. CCP please stop adding new crap to the game when u cant even keep existing stuff working as it should. Stop all development untill the existing problems are sorted out. please :) Generic whinepost #2716 come on down. I'm sure CCP never thought of fixing existing issues, no really, I'm sure they're organising Singularity fleet fights because they don't care about desyncs. This can't "be worked out on tranquility", the entire point of using Singularity is that they can setup a controlled environment test the hell out of it DURING a fleet battle and locate and solve the cause of the desyncs. CCP have more than one department egg head, the department that makes new stuff doesn't fix broken stuff, and if they did, I imagine there'd be alot more broken stuff. How about you stop reciting the same crap every no brain first time on the forum genius comes out with having never actually read any dev blogs, and actually get on SiSi and go help improve the game? Website Recruiting Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
DiaBlo UK North Siders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:39:00 - [30] Edited by: DiaBlo UK on 26/11/2007 13:40:07 Originally by: Varly Edited by: Varly on 25/11/2007 02:29:20 Originally by: Aprudena Gist 11 GMT is a stupid time to do it at. They should do it different times mostly Eastern US Prime-time because that's when the most people are on. Doing it when it is most convenient for Iceland local time kills participation. CCP would get double the number of people on these things if they accommodated North American prime time Originally by: Nebuchadnezzar I That might be true for GS, but generally the game peaks at EU primetime, which would be 18.00+ eve time. This is simply untrue. A remedial survey of currently logged users on an hourly basis for a week would show how wrong this is. check this link, edit to make a linkhttp://eve.coldfront.net/status/summary it shows yesterdays peak at just after 20:00 evt, which happens to be prime time for europe, and if you look at the graph below it, you will see that over the past week, the shape is the same for each day, peaking around 20:00 evt, this continues back all month and most probably beyond. Out of the shadows, came the darkness, and ate his soul.
Thargor II Amarr Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:27:00 - [31] If CCP really wants to test load in a huge fleet fight they should do it on a Saturday at 1500 GMT that way everyone that wants to can come. Problem is that they are doing this during a time when neither the North American player base or the European one can really participate. Then again they might be afraid of 800 people showing up if they did it on a weekend, but they could have controlled tests ever increasing the number of people in a system until they found their problem if they had enough to simulate an actual fleet engagement.
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:13:00 - [32] IMHO (as an old-as-the-hills software engineer), trying to locate the cause of the desync issue by casual invites is never going to work. I am disappointed that CCP don't have a system to let them replay these fights on demand. What I am talking about is a sophisticated logging system, over-engineered test rigs, and robust testing processes. Basically, CCP should be able to tell their servers to produce a script for a specific system for a specific time period. They then have a test server and a rack of test clients that allow them to automate the replaying of this script as many times as necessary. They will need to be able to simulate at least a couple of thousand clients in a single system - with a non-graphical test client they should be able to load a hundred or more clients onto a single big-ass server. I would suggest spreading ten or twnety of these around the world to generate realworld latency etc. I have tried to debug tons of issues on web apps that can only be replicated in certain conditions during peak load times. When you say "lets just get as many people logged in as possible and do something similar" the root cause is almost never found. You need to be able to much, much more deliberate than that. Obviously this test rig is significantly more expensive and complex than SiSi. But it's a form of unit testing, and anyone who has switched from adhoc testing to unit testing environments will know that the benefits will outweigh the costs, even if it takes time to do so. I normally worry when I see unit test code that is less than the code of the thing being tested. Similarly, I expect the testing rig for Eve to be more complex and expensive than Tranquility. That statement alone will scare most of CCP off, and it will never be done. But if they expect this thing to continue to grow, it will be needed. Either they will do it, or someone else will; then we will all jump ship to the MMOG that is actually reliable and can support the fantastically complex interactions that arise in battles involving hundreds or thousands of players at the same time. CCP will not be in this game for the long haul unless they are prepared to invest very, very heavily in the quality of the product.
Faith Black Minmatar Rolls Roids	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:19:00 - [33] Edited by: Faith Black on 27/11/2007 10:24:25 Originally by: kanojo1969 IMHO (as an old-as-the-hills software engineer), trying to locate the cause of the desync issue by casual invites is never going to work. I am disappointed that CCP don't have a system to let them replay these fights on demand. One of the reasons for desynchs seemed to be the collision detection that gives different results for the client and the server. On the server you were stuck in something, but on your client not. This is a scenario that needs to be taken care off, because server and client will naturally be out of synch by some amount of time. And positions of moving objects will therefore always be more or less out of synch on client and server too, which can mean that two objects collide and block eachother on someones's screen/client, but not on someone elses client or the server. If you engage warp in a situation, where the server sees you hindered by an object and the client not, the client warps you normally away and you come out of warped, while the server still thinks you are stuck in your position with an active warp drive. If you click a button in that situation, like after having warped to a pos, you get the message: 'You can not do that, while you are in warp.'. I assume the problem hasn't been fixed yet. Don't know, because I don't do fleetbattles at the moment. Anyway there should be some means to approach the problem. I mean if the packets have time-stamps and are numbered, you should be able to track what's going on and find out, where information gets delayed or lost. Then the clients could do checks too, request resynchs, when things seem too odd (at a limited rate ofc, so that the clients don't hammer the server dead) and also send detailed reports back like noticed desynch conditions, packet-loss, latency, stress on the client machine to help analysing the problem. Ok, this stuff needs also to be programmed and can introduce more bugs of course. I didn't say that it's easy. P.S.: I'm also not a software engineer and don't own a cluster. Got only some experience with bugs and doing the dirty work like supervising/helping students with multithreaded programming and implementing an OS in a lab or reverse-engineering, C++ template programming... Can't wait for C++0x tbh., I've just seen a few code examples and read the feature list and think it will be cool. Probably becomes ISO standard 2009. Hope the compilers don't take so long to catch up. With ISO C++98 it was a pain. I better stop now. What was the topic again ?
Dafuzz Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.27 13:41:00 - [34] I am wondering.... Can you not just make a separate login on your windows with admin rights, do a clean Eve install in the folder c:\singularity on that account, and make the login "Singularity"? -- -If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets..
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.11.27 14:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Dafuzz I am wondering.... Can you not just make a separate login on your windows with admin rights, do a clean Eve install in the folder c:\singularity on that account, and make the login "Singularity"? Yes, but that's a pretty significant amount of effort required for a test center install. This would be the only game I've seen that requires such exceptional steps needed in order to run a second install. Its not CCP's fault, completely. Whomever thought up the brilliant idea of sticking game data in the account level Documents and Folders directories needs to be kicked in the gonads repeatedly. The best solution would be for CCP to allow the game to create independent folders under the EVE Online folder for TQ and Singularity servers.
Ethen Bejorn	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:51:00 - [36] If CCP wants people to use the test server then they should make it easier to get onto the test server.
Fengo Marr PezCo - Ice Services Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.28 10:59:00 - [37] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn If CCP wants people to use the test server then they should make it easier to get onto the test server. Exactly what is so difficult about it? You copy your EVE folder and apply a patch? I realise some people have more complex issues, but this is no different than some people having issues getting onto TQ.

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