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Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:03:00 - [1] was poking around on the forums today and noticed a couple of 'remove local' posts. both were way off the mark, so no apologies here for creating one more. i'm writing as a jr. fleet commander who thinks the game would be a lot more fun if ccp were to hide your pic in local until you said something. here's why: right now, with local as it is, there is no element of surprise. there is no way to disguise the size of your fleet and no reason split your fleet into multiple smaller fleets. one example: a roaming gang using a couple of scouts comes across a gatecamp with a solo scout on the in gate. the gate camp scout sees exactly how many ships the roaming gang has and vice versa. even if the camping gang keeps a few ships off the gate, the roaming FC has pretty good intel as to whether or not they should engage. and likewise, the camping FC knows how many ships he's up against a minute or two before they can get to the gate. both FC's have plenty of time to avoid an engagement. and so what could have been an interesting and maybe an evenly matched fight is avoided because neither FC has overwhelming numbers on his side. because of local. so nothing happens. the roaming fleet balks, or the gate camp gang runs. or both. now, if local were changed, neither FC would know what he was up against until the ships arrived to battle. so, if i were camping, i might leave some t1 cruisers and frigates on the gate and leave my heavy hitters off scanner range. or if i were the roaming FC, i might only jump my frigs in and see if i could get the enemy to engage, then jump the rest of my fleet and start aligning for an exit in case we in turn got jumped by more hostile ships. what i think would happen would be many many more engagements and a lot more fun. plus you add a new tactical dimension to pvp - do i send in all my ships or hold some back? did they send in all their ships or hold some back? right now there is absolutely no reason to split up a fleet. so i keep one or two scouts and then jump jump the rest of the fleet together. change local and i can be a lot more crafty. :-) change local and the massive fleet fights break up into initial scouting fights, then build as the FC's commit more ships to the fight. which means lag goes down 'cause there are fewer ships arriving all at once. heck, battles might even last longer, and be a lot more interesting.
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:03:00 - [2] was poking around on the forums today and noticed a couple of 'remove local' posts. both were way off the mark, so no apologies here for creating one more. i'm writing as a jr. fleet commander who thinks the game would be a lot more fun if ccp were to hide your pic in local until you said something. here's why: right now, with local as it is, there is no element of surprise. there is no way to disguise the size of your fleet and no reason split your fleet into multiple smaller fleets. one example: a roaming gang using a couple of scouts comes across a gatecamp with a solo scout on the in gate. the gate camp scout sees exactly how many ships the roaming gang has and vice versa. even if the camping gang keeps a few ships off the gate, the roaming FC has pretty good intel as to whether or not they should engage. and likewise, the camping FC knows how many ships he's up against a minute or two before they can get to the gate. both FC's have plenty of time to avoid an engagement. and so what could have been an interesting and maybe an evenly matched fight is avoided because neither FC has overwhelming numbers on his side. because of local. so nothing happens. the roaming fleet balks, or the gate camp gang runs. or both. now, if local were changed, neither FC would know what he was up against until the ships arrived to battle. so, if i were camping, i might leave some t1 cruisers and frigates on the gate and leave my heavy hitters off scanner range. or if i were the roaming FC, i might only jump my frigs in and see if i could get the enemy to engage, then jump the rest of my fleet and start aligning for an exit in case we in turn got jumped by more hostile ships. what i think would happen would be many many more engagements and a lot more fun. plus you add a new tactical dimension to pvp - do i send in all my ships or hold some back? did they send in all their ships or hold some back? right now there is absolutely no reason to split up a fleet. so i keep one or two scouts and then jump jump the rest of the fleet together. change local and i can be a lot more crafty. :-) change local and the massive fleet fights break up into initial scouting fights, then build as the FC's commit more ships to the fight. which means lag goes down 'cause there are fewer ships arriving all at once. heck, battles might even last longer, and be a lot more interesting.
Aeleva Caldari Hegemonic Core	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:48:00 - [3] I just hope they dont change it or life as a low sec miner or NPCer would be rubbish. It would make trying to do anything in lowsec belts or similar pointless, or even doing anything generally. Would totally mess up all logistics. Yes i do see your point that no local would make large scale 0.0 PVP alot more fun, but it would ruin things for loads of other people.
Katana Seiko Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:04:00 - [4] Well, with the seamless map CCP could change the "local" from everything within the same solarsystem to anything within maybe 2 lightyears. If there's a second solarsystem within 2 lightyears, you could have two solarsystems as "local", bu you won't know if there's a thread in your solarsystem or in an other one close by... --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you.
Una D Ex Coelis Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:39:00 - [5] Considering how many people still get ganked I doubt that it's such a huge problem and it works both ways. Considering the example. Who is stupid enough to engage with small fleet when you have a larger one? It's not problem of local it's the fact that more numbers means more power and if you are lucky less losses since you kick the crap out of the other gang before they can do anything.
Sola Sun Jita Trade Services	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:19:00 - [6] Even small fleet can have covops/recon able to scout more or less safely, though it can not detect people sitting in dock/cloaked in particular system. Finding targets while flying solo would also be harder, though there is a map filter named "average pilots in system -- last 30 min", that can give a clue. Life of ISK farmers and miners would become somewhat more complex. Personally, i think this will make the game more interesting. Maybe, as a test, CCP can make "some kind of evil computer virus infecting stargates firmware" in one particular 0.0 NPC region, that will prevent LOCAL chat there functioning in immediate mode -- for a month or two, and see, what will happen?
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Aeleva I just hope they dont change it or life as a low sec miner or NPCer would be rubbish. It would make trying to do anything in lowsec belts or similar pointless, or even doing anything generally. Would totally mess up all logistics. Yes i do see your point that no local would make large scale 0.0 PVP alot more fun, but it would ruin things for loads of other people. It works both ways. Pirates in particular use Local all the time to find targets - it'd hurt them more than you can imagine. People mining, NPCing and so on would still be relatively safe and they can still use their Scanner to find threats (assuming they arn't cloaked) Besides, NPCers/Miners with a clue are practically unkillable at the moment simply because they warp off the second someone shady enters local. 0.0 Macro Ratters in particular are often scripted to warp to a safe and cloak the second someone enters local, making them essentially invulnerable. I've done some piracy in my time, but mostly run missions in low-sec nowadays. I would very much support these changes to Local. -----
August Guns	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:02:00 - [8] Keep local in high-sec and low-sec, remove it in null-sec.
DiaBlo UK North Siders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:21:00 - [9] I agree wit hthe last post, keep it in high/low sec, remove it from 0.0 tbh, i don't see why its there anyway, doesn't make sense from an rp pov, the way i see it, is that the empires or concord maintain the comms network known as local, therefore it shouldn't exist in 0.0, unless an alliance gain region sov (once, if ever its introduced) and has station services onlined to enable the local comms network. Out of the shadows, came the darkness, and ate his soul.
Derek Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:08:00 - [10] Ouit whining about local, it will never be removed.
Sagitter Caldari GIT-R-DUN	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:11:00 - [11] the idea is good i like it, and to help miners who are resident in that 0.0 system, a sort of beacon you anchor at gate who tells u if someone warps in and takes some time to say who warped in, rather fragile beacon that can be destroyed avoiding to reveal to the miners numbers and faction of the new comers in system (if they kill it in time) (but at least warn the miners/ratters, someone arrived).
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:39:00 - [12] It is currently nearly impossible to catch an npc'er in a belt in 0.0. A 10 second delay on displaying new entries to local would make a huge difference, but as it stands now, hunting solo or in small gangs for npc'ers is a complete waste of time.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:39:00 - [13] Removing local would make the few people who bother to go to low sec quit entirely. A couple of my characters are running missions in low sec, more to see if it can be done than anything else, as ship losses to pirates and time spent warping away from incoming pirates make it far less profitable than mission running in high sec. Still, being somewhat a glutton for punishment, I'm willing to take lower profits to have a slightly more exciting game play experience. If I had no idea even whether there was a huge gang of pirates in the system or not, I simply wouldn't bother with low sec at all.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:42:00 - [14] Quote: It is currently nearly impossible to catch an npc'er in a belt in 0.0. What you mean is, it's impossible if they run away and hide at the first sign of trouble, which is merely the intelligent thing to do. Seriously, pirates say that anyone dumb enough to be caught in a belt ratting deserves to die, so the only real defence is to run away before you get caught. If someone is hiding out cloaked in deep space, they aren't hurting you and aren't doing any ratting. If it bothers you, leave one of your alts there or something.
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:09:00 - [15] Originally by: Derek Ouit whining about local, it will never be removed. Oh really? I used to fly a gankrax with 1600mm plates and 8 heavy drones (200m3 drone bay). And the heavy drones were NOT affected by a ships sig radius, which means they would one-shot frigates and tear through AF's in about 10 seconds. That no longer exists in EVE. Neither do nano-phoons, nor hauling carriers, nor the BPO lottery. :-) All that said, you might be right. Without local we won't have solo macro-ratters out in 0.0 supporting the big alliances. As to the low-sec cat and mouse pirate game, all CCP needs to do is give us better scanners or scanning tools and the game could continue pretty much as it is now. How hard can it be to actually only show ships with pilots in them in my system scanner? Or not show ships behind a POS forcefield? Or make the scanner passive like my overview so when someone jumps into my 14 AU range they show up? All of this would be much much much more interesting than using a chat channel for your intel.
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:36:00 - [16] The "Remove Local" Thread n¦99^454147. The last one was here : Linkage Forget this idea... Quote: tbh, i don't see why its there anyway, doesn't make sense from an rp pov, the way i see it, is that the empires or concord maintain the comms network known as local, therefore it shouldn't exist in 0.0 http://www.eve-online.com/background/communication/comm_02.asp Quote: a sort of beacon you anchor at gate who tells u if someone warps in and takes some time to say who warped in, More work for logistic-men (not appreciated), will reduce travelling because too much risk, reducing targets at the same time. Quote: i might leave some t1 cruisers and frigates on the gate and leave my heavy hitters off scanner range. or if i were the roaming FC, i might only jump my frigs in and see if i could get the enemy to engage. I don't think that players will appreciate to be used as meatshield to have intelligence, for their K/D ratio. Coverts ops exists but they can't be used each time for an evaluation process...
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:23:00 - [17] I cannot think of a more game-killing change than to remove local. As a 0.0 alliance member, its absolutely invaluable. The only ones who seem to want local removed is piewrats and pvp-gangs. The OP is completely wrong about the 'start small and build engagement' idea. People will just continue to blob all the ships they have, just that now two fleets will pass each other in warp and never even know that there was an engagement to be had. Local was removed for a day....I think most people would say it was an unmitigated disaster. Think back to that day and ask yourself if you want to play EVE that way.
Harm Gently Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Princess Jodi I cannot think of a more game-killing change than to remove local. As a 0.0 alliance member, its absolutely invaluable. The only ones who seem to want local removed is piewrats and pvp-gangs. The OP is completely wrong about the 'start small and build engagement' idea. People will just continue to blob all the ships they have, just that now two fleets will pass each other in warp and never even know that there was an engagement to be had. Local was removed for a day....I think most people would say it was an unmitigated disaster. Think back to that day and ask yourself if you want to play EVE that way. I liked it. Eve somehow felt a lot bigger, darker and moar hostile that day
Katana Seiko Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Katana Seiko on 26/11/2007 23:29:59 Hehe, I think I got something: Change Local to delayed mode. Only people that say something or those that are longer than like 5 minutes in local show up in there... Help works that way... Oh, and since there's no entry/leave message from the client every time there's a jump, the game will become faster. A very important point on the Need for Speed agenda..? Maybe we can get like 1200 people into Jita... --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:46:00 - [20] how about hitting u is more fun
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:42:00 - [21] One way to fix local: In systems with sov 2 or the person entering local, if not a member of the sovreign alliance or above +7 standings, has a 2 min delay before local will load (while the gate gets clearance from the territory holder). 5 mins for sov 3, 10 for sov 4. People with the proper standings or members of the alliance see immediate presences in local. Likewise, in empire and lowsec, a pilots standing with the local faction will determine how swiftly local loads for them. High standings = immediate refresh. Low standings delay this. CONCORD security status would not affect this refresh rate, it would be faction dependant solely. The only problem with this is 'NPC space' in 0.0 since very, very few would ever have standings anywhere close to positive, so everyone, even the local residents, would suffer a delay.
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:00:00 - [22] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 27/11/2007 01:01:23 It is the server who will suffer of a delay. This will add more computations per player. Guess that Jita would be fun if the server has to check faction standing of all players, then define the adapted timer for each, then refresh when done. Same thing for all others systems also. This will reduce also fights as we don't know if there are someone in a non-my-side solar system.
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz It is currently nearly impossible to catch an npc'er in a belt in 0.0. what are you trying to catch them in? a triple plated rokh?
Xi'Tal	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:52:00 - [24] I somewhat agree that it is laughable that a chat window is used as a primary source of intel, but I feel that the overall change in dynamic that you are promoting will not benefit the EVE community on the whole. Yes, EVE is about danger and risk, but to what extent? By removing local, sure, it makes the life of the ratter much more risky, and some would argue that this would be much more fun. But at the same time, you are making the life of the pirate much easier, in the sense that he or she is far more likely to "get the jump" on the now unsuspecting ratter that has no idea of even the pirates presence. I am of the opinion that CCP should first focus on making gameplay styles that are "required" easier rather than harder. I would predict that for 90% of new players entering the game, it is going to be a massive turn-off for them when they first venture out to make that first bit of ISK, only to be destroyed more often than they already are. While it's more fun for the bitter vets to walk all over trial accounts, it doesn't promote growth of the game that would ultimately enhance the game overall. TL;DR: Get rid of local chat as the primary source of intel, but include a fancy looking radar that accomplishes the same thing so as not to screw over new ratters who are merely trying to establish themselves.
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.11.27 07:09:00 - [25] Originally by: Sky Marshal The "Remove Local" Thread n¦99^454147. The last one was here : Linkage Quote: i might leave some t1 cruisers and frigates on the gate and leave my heavy hitters off scanner range. or if i were the roaming FC, i might only jump my frigs in and see if i could get the enemy to engage. I don't think that players will appreciate to be used as meatshield to have intelligence, for their K/D ratio. Coverts ops exists but they can't be used each time for an evaluation process... not a meatshield, just the first line of offense or defense. this is what t1 frigs and cruisers are used for - gate scouts, station tacklers, aggro bait, etc. - show up to a gang op in a small t1 ship and i will put you to use. :-)
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.11.27 07:17:00 - [26] Originally by: Xi'Tal I somewhat agree that it is laughable that a chat window is used as a primary source of intel, but I feel that the overall change in dynamic that you are promoting will not benefit the EVE community on the whole. Yes, EVE is about danger and risk, but to what extent? By removing local, sure, it makes the life of the ratter much more risky, and some would argue that this would be much more fun. But at the same time, you are making the life of the pirate much easier, in the sense that he or she is far more likely to "get the jump" on the now unsuspecting ratter that has no idea of even the pirates presence. I am of the opinion that CCP should first focus on making gameplay styles that are "required" easier rather than harder. I would predict that for 90% of new players entering the game, it is going to be a massive turn-off for them when they first venture out to make that first bit of ISK, only to be destroyed more often than they already are. While it's more fun for the bitter vets to walk all over trial accounts, it doesn't promote growth of the game that would ultimately enhance the game overall. TL;DR: Get rid of local chat as the primary source of intel, but include a fancy looking radar that accomplishes the same thing so as not to screw over new ratters who are merely trying to establish themselves. Agreed completely. This post raises a good point about helping out the newbies as they just start to enter lowsec (and the macro ratters in 0.0 grrrr). But don't make us use a chat channel, CCP, give us real scanner tools. What if you could pop open your system scanner, tuck it away in a corner, and have it set to alert you whenever a new ship came within whatever range you had set? (up to 14 AU of course) If the ratter was aligned and on his toes he could get out in time, or hail the other ship in local and see who responds :-), but if he was sleepin (or not a real person) the pirate would actually have a chance to catch him. unless of course the pirate yells "YARRRR" in local. actually, now that would be fun, actually blowing your cover in local just before you come out of warp on someone. lol.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.11.28 16:19:00 - [27] Why local is bad -----
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.28 16:41:00 - [28] Simple solution: Remove local for 0.0 systems with no Alliance owner. Leave low sec and empire as it is.
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:49:00 - [29] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Why local is bad wow. holy **** wow. i knew we had macro ratters, but i didn't know someone was out there selling the macros to do it. i think this wins the nerf local debate. check out the link.
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.01 05:49:00 - [30] Lets say we remove local. What's going to happen if you're in a gang of ten acting as the scout. You jump into a system with 50 cloaked recon ships sitting on a gate. You're going to tell all your mates is safe, they're all going to jump in and then you will burst into tears as 50 completeley hidden and undetectable ships uncloak and kill you instantly, screeching out in dismay as the dictor pilot uncloaks and drops a bubble. Even better, a cloaked heavy interdictor, will be an uber tackler. One ship, undetected and unseen will tackle the lot of you. There is NO counter to this tactic because there is NO way you will know who is in your system. It will make travelling in zero sec in anything other than a massive gang unviable. One alternative is to jump in, cloak up and wait for 20 minutes until you bore your enemy out; does that sound like fun? Does that sound enjoyable to you? Nerfing local will effectively make Eve a cloak essential game if you are to survive jumping into a system in zero sec. That's why cries to nerf local are ignored. The big criticism of local is that it nerfs surprise, a core element of fighting. Well, is knowing someone is in your system that much of advantage? The complaint seems to be; I want to be able to jump into someone else's space, hunt through their belts with impunity in my force recon, tackle them without them even knowing I am there and then laughing as me and my gang-mates kill them in seconds. Doesn't this sound just a little bit unbalanced towards the attacker to you? People who want local nerfed effectively want a massive wtf advantage over everyone else.

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