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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.06 11:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: McWatt on 06/03/2004 11:35:20
i ve always thought eve was a game of heavy PvP.
a game in which combat was generally possible next to everywhere, anytime, with small limitations to protect beginners.
recent/pending changes make me believe that i was wrong:
* increase of sentry range in low sec
* weird "let concord kill you" rule in high sec
* security status freeze
* pending consentual war system
* insurance change
while lots of changes since castor realy improved the game, this aspect gets continously nerfed.
i find it more and more difficult to see the difference to "PvP by flag only" or "PvP areas/server" games, in which death has only a small penalty.
what became of
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... or the most nefarious pirate ever to terrorize the galaxy - be and do anything you d ever dare imagine
anything?
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Form a cartel of ruthless compatriots and control the spaceways.
didn t know that this one was for concord members only.
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Jowen Datloran
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Posted - 2004.03.06 12:07:00 -
[2]
Sorry, but PvP is not all about blowing ships up. There's plenty of systems where you can do that, and if you can't find any to play with there, I guess it's your bad luck.
You don't hear me complaining that people tend to buy from other suppliers than me. I have to "fight" hard to keep the market in check so I can overcome my "advesaries". That's my kind of PvP.
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What's a rumor on page one is a fact on page two |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.06 12:12:00 -
[3]
Edited by: McWatt on 06/03/2004 12:12:49
well Jowen, your part of the game seems to be close (at least somehow) to what was promised:
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buy, sell, and barter to amass great wealth... or do it the easy way with a hostile takeover
but "the easy way" is getting harder and harder, methinks.
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zincol
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Posted - 2004.03.06 12:17:00 -
[4]
Loads of systems to pvp just no players in them systems :-/
w00t!
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Nashal Couronne
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Posted - 2004.03.06 12:33:00 -
[5]
Woah woah woah. Consentual war system?!?
That better just be one of those silly rumours, because thats one of the PvP game mechanics I love about this game. For all the gankers and pseudo-pirates, the war system is the best out there in any MMO. Leave it the heck alone.
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Baleur
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Posted - 2004.03.06 12:35:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Loads of systems to pvp just no players in them systems :-/
w00t!
its cuz of all those newbie pirates newbie killers that are too afraid of looking weak if actually asking someone to a challenge instead of simply gang-ganking them from behind like a rotten rabid cow 
God i gotta change my sig..
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.06 12:49:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Woah woah woah. Consentual war system?!?
That better just be one of those silly rumours, because thats one of the PvP game mechanics I love about this game. For all the gankers and pseudo-pirates, the war system is the best out there in any MMO. Leave it the heck alone.
Link
sorry, but doesn t sound like a rumour. in short:
1. one war slot per corp
2. pay for wars
for once i m happy that promised features get delayed.
oh, and yes, their previous ideas were even worse!
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Bobbeh
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Posted - 2004.03.06 13:36:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Loads of systems to pvp just no players in them systems :-/
w00t!
o so true.
Mimiru > It'd be a tie, the monkies nerfed pooflinger wouldnt have enough tracking to hit the parrot orbiting him, but the parrot's beak is so small it couldnt break the monkey's fur tanking. |
DedGuy
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Posted - 2004.03.06 13:45:00 -
[9]
shud be a few more ppl in lower sec systems now that sentries have been 'improved.' Pirates not being able to gamp effectively anymore, should spread out.
Rumors of my clones death are greatly exaggerated. But I am still INACTIVE
Millennium Elder |
Nashal Couronne
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Posted - 2004.03.06 13:56:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Link
sorry, but doesn t sound like a rumour. in short:
1. one war slot per corp
2. pay for wars
for once i m happy that promised features get delayed.
oh, and yes, their previous ideas were even worse!
Well thats pretty crappy. I can understand paying for wars, thats good, makes people think twice before declaring wars just to gank a new corporation. Im undecided on the fact you can only have one non-consentual war, as it limits corps, however they do still allow for more consentual wars, which is fine for RP.
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Minsc
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Posted - 2004.03.06 14:05:00 -
[11]
Keep in mind with the changes coming to alliances that any corps in the alliance automatically gain the wars of all other alliances. I don't think having too many wars will be a problem for most corps. 
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AtomicFishStick
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Posted - 2004.03.06 14:31:00 -
[12]
Ohh there are players in the 0.0 systems you just have to know how to read the map. And also try to stay in touch with the local corperations and alliances that always helps. Otherwise you are just running around blind out there with no real idea of what you're doing.
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Dekar
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Posted - 2004.03.06 14:40:00 -
[13]
What you refer to in your "pvp" is actually more like majority vs minority and/or newbie bashing, gate camping etc. Pretty pathetic really...
The war system still works, and I've yet to see you provide GOOD arguments as to why that isn't "pvp".
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Lying Scumbag |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.06 15:34:00 -
[14]
i wouldn t want this topic to digress to the new warsystem alone, it s only one aspect of the changes.
i see PvP mainly as combat. in contrast to general/forum believes there are a lot of real fights happening around camps. pirates/piratehunters and alliances will be able to tell you, that it s not only shuttle spanking.
i see economic competition as part of PvP, but as eve offers little tools (apart from undercutting prices) it will too suffer from the ban of combat in empire space.
i ve always seen eve as a dark world, in which combat is the last mean to achieve even economic targets, where
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power is the Holy Grail
instead, high sec space is changing from a place where you could get away with an occasional kill, and everything was possible in rather unrestricted wars to a safe haven. (mostly through the "die by concord rule" and bugged security status recovery)
low sec space has become rather similar safe around gates and stations, the main combat areas.
even attacks in belts will give you an security hit and ultimately drive you out rather fast.
so the world of eve is more and more split in an area of no/consentual combat (empire space) and a PvP server/arena/dungeon outside.
i don t agree with this development. 
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2004.03.06 15:36:00 -
[15]
So why aren't Killer Clowns fighting the SAS? Oh yes, carebear pirates, I forgot...
Convert Stations
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Eduard
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Posted - 2004.03.06 15:56:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Loads of systems to pvp just no players in them systems :-/
w00t!
Hmm what's your problem guy? Go and start shooting pirate vs pirate is PvP too, but I see no one of you doing it because is afraid to loose your ship.
So what you call PvP I call mass ganging fest! That's diferent thing and this is reason why CCP must beef sentry and concord to prevent unwanted gank fests.
People PvP isn't about smahing people but fight equal fights. If you want insta gank then go and play QUAKISH games. Making death penalty mild would encourage PvP...
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Erty
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Posted - 2004.03.06 16:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Erty on 06/03/2004 16:03:49
Yes, this is a PvP game. PvP stands for Player vs. Player. The players interact with eachother.
Killing n00bs is not PvP, killing n00bs is...well. Killing n00bs. Player vs. Someone who can't shoot back.
This is my signature. |
Azamien
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Posted - 2004.03.06 17:34:00 -
[18]
Quote:
recent/pending changes make me believe that i was wrong:
* increase of sentry range in low sec
* weird "let concord kill you" rule in high sec
* security status freeze
* pending consentual war system
* insurance change
1. That one's certainly a mixed bag. On one hand, it stops "ganking carebears" from sitting at gates and killing n00bs. Like someone said above, that's not PVP or pirating, that's just picking on the weak because you can.
On the other hand, taking out the ability to rough up convoys, and the loss of the ability for some instances of true pirating (read: not random n00b ganking) sucks.
2. From what I understand, this has been the rule from day one. It's just that no one has sat in 1.0 and blatantly defied warnings to stop like Zombie Inc did, so the hammer hadn't been brought down on someone in such a way that most people would know about it.
My own two cents: The people involved in Yulai were banned for stupidity, not exploiting. Hmm... told by the GMs that it's a violation and warned to stop, then continuing anyway *knowing* the GMs would have their eyes on you. That isn't exploiting... that's being a moron.
3. Yeah, although I started playing after the freeze, this one does suck. Just how many millions of pirates do I need to kill for Concord to like me one tenth of a point better? 
4. If I'm understanding this correctly, yeah, this does suck.
5. I disagree here. I think longer insurance would make people avoid PVP *less* than before. If it's cheaper to insure your ship, then you're not going to be so afraid to take it out into low sec areas.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.06 20:35:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Killing n00bs is not PvP, killing n00bs is...well. Killing n00bs. Player vs. Someone who can't shoot back.
traveling in empire space is now completly safe.
AGAIN: not 95% of the playerbase are noobs. there is an occasional player amongst them whos transporting expensive stuff. without the slightest risk, from now on.
player vs someone who can t shoot back now, but could do so later or make his buddys do IS PvP!!!
to 2.: if the rule is this old, it s still rather lousily defined. it was not enforced like this beforehand. the way it stands now, it kills fights in highsec complely. (as you could always leave your corp to dodge a war)
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I think longer insurance would make people avoid PVP *less* than before.
this might happen. but might as well not. it will certainly lead to alot more of insurance abuse. and it somehow limits the damage that you can do to your opponents.
this is, again symptomatic of PvP "light" systems.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.03.07 08:00:00 -
[20]
Quote:
... the way it stands now, it kills fights in highsec complely.
So highsec now, finally, works the way it was always supposed to.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.03.07 08:10:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Quote:
... the way it stands now, it kills fights in highsec complely.
So highsec now, finally, works the way it was always supposed to.
No, now low sec space works even less than how it's supposed to be.
Low security rating is supposed to indicate a dangerous area. With just the changes to sentry gun range makes the routes through an allegedly dangerous area stupifyingly safe.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Yolan
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Posted - 2004.03.07 08:21:00 -
[22]
I think the insurance change will be good. I for one will risk my bs in 0.0 space now because I can keep upto date with insurance. Previously I would be spending a full week doing nothing but mining to cover my insurance for 3 weeks so I just didnt bother with insurance and stayed in empire space. I think most of the changes will force carebear pirates to work for a living and patrol the belts which is good cause they will have some real opposition cause any decent mining op will a have bs combat cover.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.03.07 08:29:00 -
[23]
Lowered insurance cost is a way to remove PvP?
If anything it promotes it. That's 40% less time you have to mine rocks to get back into a ship.
I think you forgot some of the recent changes that distinctly promote PvP:
1) Removal of invulnerability timer.
2) 75% speed required to enter warp.
3) Predictable jump in points.
4) Anchorable warp destabilizers.
5) Scanner interface changes (optimized for hunting).
6) Agility nerf.
7) 10 sec delay on MWD (no getting into warp in 2.4 sec in a BS).
I will give you that the war system is pretty lame and flagging aggressors is a big problem.
Sec status is a hot topic that needs change as well. The simple fact that killing a single drone is considered 'as bad' as blowing up a piloted ship is pretty retarded.
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Meau
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Posted - 2004.03.07 08:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Meau on 07/03/2004 09:54:33
Quote:
No, now low sec space works even less than how it's supposed to be.
Low security rating is supposed to indicate a dangerous area. With just the changes to sentry gun range makes the routes through an allegedly dangerous area stupifyingly safe.
Come on, we both know gates in 0.1 to 0.4 can be camped, its a just a bit more of an effort. Solo gankers lose big time, thats true, but you can still camp any gate below 0.4 with a few peers.
Edit: And, yeah, lowering the number of sentry guns at the gates in 0.4 to 0.1 would be an idea i like.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.07 09:51:00 -
[25]
Edited by: McWatt on 07/03/2004 09:53:27
Quote:
So highsec now, finally, works the way it was always supposed to.
i ve never seen it like that. if you carefully read what ppl who favor the ant-pirate changes write, you ll notice that they talk a lot about protecting "noobs".
the war changes on the other hand were brought about by ppl who want to follow a "peacefull" way of life and don t want to fight with anybody.
i have extremly strong doubts that these two groups make up the majority of ppl living in high sec space.
to protect noobs, a few, realy safe sytems should do.
catering for the second group is much more difficult, as i basically belief that ppl take part in competition as soon as they start to interact in any way. (btw, i belief that most of the peacefull ppl happily supply ppl fighting and a lot of them are planning to personally join the fight later, after the safe money making)
basically ppl who are serious about "peace" would need a seperate server or a reservation inside the world of eve with little to no transaction with the rest. (and i like none of these ideas)
instead the majority of ppl enjoying high sec space are rather experienced, traders, researchers, agent runners not to forget the productive branches of the big corps and the pirate alt mining groups.
one could argue too, that the fact that you are able to pull of a kill (if you let concord destroy your ship afterwards) is a hint to the fact that empire space is not supposed to be entirely safe. (a rather weird one, though, allowing mostly the destruction of weak ships by dedicated cheap ships)
talking about the insurance change, i stated already that it might promote combat, though i m not sure wether it will. it surely does:
1. punish the "nice" toll collecting pirates
2. limits the damage that can be done by ship destruction (and as we all tend to agree that piracy is not a good way of earning money, destroying money is a pirates way to even the odds)
3. takes away some risk from combat.
so sure it will not remove PvP, but it s nerfing it anyway.
and Hemantic, i agree with most of the points you made. as i wrote in my original post, lots of good changes have been made recently.
only problem is, that next to none of this changes is going to have impact on PvP in empire space.
my original question still is:
is the game splitting into a no combat zone (empire space), where fights basically are consentual and a PvP zone/"server" which is 0.0 space? (with a small middle ground being the belts in low sec space)
do we like this change?
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Sally
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Posted - 2004.03.07 10:28:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Lowered insurance cost is a way to remove PvP?
If anything it promotes it. That's 40% less time you have to mine rocks to get back into a ship.
I think you forgot some of the recent changes that distinctly promote PvP:
1) Removal of invulnerability timer.
2) 75% speed required to enter warp.
3) Predictable jump in points.
4) Anchorable warp destabilizers.
5) Scanner interface changes (optimized for hunting).
6) Agility nerf.
7) 10 sec delay on MWD (no getting into warp in 2.4 sec in a BS).
1) Instead we got locking times, what's the matter on this?
2) Smart people are always aligned to somewhere at maximum speed, doesn't really matter.
3) Unpredictable warp in points (15-60km), positions at objects (angle + change of position afterwards).
4) I'd like to buy some large ones, where?
5) Useless due to safe spots or people being 400 au away.
6) Agility nerf which made it unpossible to hunt smaller vessels with bigger vessels. Since same classes got the same nerf, it doesn't really matter.
7) Doesn't really matter also, a lot of people equip 2 MWDs or just MWD with one in the opposite direction. One will never catch up.
A lot of changes, but people adapted: They just hit the quit button.
Yawn!
--
Stories: #1
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Dev Larren
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Posted - 2004.03.07 10:44:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Dev Larren on 07/03/2004 10:47:49
Edited by: Dev Larren on 07/03/2004 10:47:08
Edited by: Dev Larren on 07/03/2004 10:46:28
Eve is as much a PW with an RP setting as it is a PvP game. These need to be balanced. Any PvP made without valid roleplaying is just childish griefing and should not have any place here - in my opinion.
I am fairly new here and I have only two examples to offer but the contrast will illustrate my point.
I was jumped in a 0.4 system by a member of the Lame Ducks after I failed to respond to his interrorgation (part of the RP for my character.) The end result was that i was blown away but I was ok with the event as the Caldari ultra-nationalist background of the character was part of the RP and i had fun having a go at the Lame Ducks on the role-play forum - ok I think the name is dumb but I am a bit of an RP purists but I liked the ultra-nationalist RP involved.
Yesterday while mining with my corp a ship started trying to grief us into combat. At first I thought it might be a legitimate attempt at RPing a pirate and stealing from us but it soon turned out that it was a pure "come and fight me" situation with no attempt at RP. I am not going to get involved in a non-RPed "challenge" because I am trying to RP a character who is more serious about business than that. I was especially not interested given the complete lack of RP by the person and the particularly pathetic real-world reference in his corp name that was a cold shower for RPing.
Now I accept that some people are into meaningless lazy PvP and can't be bothered with RP but they should take the hint when they meet groups that have made it clear they are not interested. In my case it was "please come back when you've grown up in terms of gaming style" but I accept that I am a bit RP-oriented.
Give me well-RPed PvP anytime but players who just go around picking fights and griefing purely for the sake of lazy PvP should stay away from more serious players. Perhaps they should even have their own server where the Dev team don't bother with naming planets, background history etc.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Swift
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Posted - 2004.03.07 21:19:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Swift on 07/03/2004 21:27:10
I have to say I think this whole argument is a silly one - Ive been playing since beta (left for a few months to wait for them to sort things out and am back) and I had always thought the highest sec systems should be complete lock downs (and they always stated they would be). Look at the EVE universe - you really think that it these totalitarian systems, even one pirate is going to manage to get a kill without having his ship blown apart in what is supposed to be the safest area? Give me a break...
We are talking technology in the far future, not some mugging on a street corner in the middle of Time Square where a policeman may take a minute to appear. Here in EVE you do that, I wouldn't be surprised if you died before you had completely pressing the fire button within your ship!
No... PvP should not be able to exist in any form in the higher secs, and considering just how large the amount of space is below 0.5, I still don't know what the problem is.
And do spare me the 'carebear' routine.. Im all for PvP and intend to take my fill whenever I wish, its not hard to find.
The idea that 'interaction' = pvp is ludicrous... one could be a trader that simply wants to do that.. trade to support a wife and kids. He doesn't want to fight anyone and die, regardless of whether a clone is waiting.. he just wants a simple trading life from a to b. He lives in a futuristic society where the technology is in place for him to have just that lifestyle in the safer areas of space. So why in the hells would some rat be able to kill him in those areas when the latest techs and Concorde have him covered?
There are benefits to low sec space, and with those benefits come the pirates and the risks of having your head blown off. If youw ant to PvP, you pirate in those areas, and in the same vein, bounty hunters, pirate hunters and affiliated corps will head down adn give you your fill.
But its quite obvious that the only people that want pvp in high sec are those that want to gank Joe. Peace, who doesn't want to PvP. And no Joe Peace shouldn't need to have to worry about rats. Also its not Joe Peace that these people want to gank either, they also want to gank Joe Newb who has no clue what the hell he is doing either and thought he was safe in the higher secs.
Also ona non RP point of view - EVE is a commercial game - any game where griefing and killing of newbs is fostered is a recipe for disaster. CCP always stated one could have a peaceful life in EVE if one wanted, as a trader or any number of other jobs where one doesn't need to fire a single laser pulse. And this is how it is.
But if someone does want to, it takes only a few minutes to find the trouble you were looking for. This system is fine, pirates are still playing and this whole talk is just a flavour of the week that will die quickly much like most whines without substance. See you out there in the low secs though... when I feel the need to come out, not when some rat decides he wants to see my head on a stick. I am not Joe Peace.. but I respect the guy totally.
P.S Sally said: A lot of changes, but people adapted: They just hit the quit button
Apparently not.. one of the reasons I came back was that I recently checked EVE-I.com expecting the total graph to show a gradual decrease from then I played to now. 6 months ago we hit a max of around 6.5k players and after that it seemed to slow decrease. And then suddenly close to one year later the number of players is rising again breaking the 7k high and averaging at the highest at peak times from before (stronger than ever). I came back because players are joining not quitting... many beta and old time players are coming back and loving all the changes.
I wonder if I can count the numbre that quit on my two hands (well maybe possible will need my feet too but thats quite a strecth I think ;) ).
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'The truth about low sec space is that it reveals humanity - the 'essence' of all the races, in its purest form. A place where Concord no longer polices or protects, 'human nature' thrives in all its distilled destructive self-serving glory. Welcome to hell ladies and gentlemen, welcome to what it really is to be human.'
-Swiftare 'Swift' Sarum. |
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